HiFi - Imagination, Exaggeration and Colouration?

[Thompsonuxb]

The coloration thing makes no sense with ref your other points - i.e is it real? , ones imagination?.....or what?

It's a scale: No differences --> Subtle differences --> Larger differences

Hence: Imagination --> Exaggeration --> Colouration.

Seems simple enough to follow.

Sorry but the opinion is skewed simply because there are no set rules to this hobby. A step outside of your personnel bubble me thinks is in order......

I think the same is as true (if not more so) for you. Why do you just accept that no rules is a good thing? 

Again colouration?

What scale?

Ported speakers for example are affected by their proximity to walls. I have side firing woofers in my speakers which deliver a different image depending on which way the woofer is facing.....which is the most uncoloured way to place them?

Accept?

Why apply rules were not required. The flexibility of different kit allows for so much play.

As a young man I recall daisy chaining low powered stereo amps for gain to play party's.

Driving a set of tweeters without crossovers just by removing low frequencies with graphic equalisers - if you travel the world you'll see truely ingenious ways people get superb sound bypassing the 'rules' of hifi.

Accepting rules has nothing to do with anything......it's a hobby to enjoy by any means.

Rules should be left at the door.

 

[Ajani]

The coloration thing makes no sense with ref your other points - i.e is it real? , ones imagination?.....or what?

It's a scale: No differences --> Subtle differences --> Larger differences

Hence: Imagination --> Exaggeration --> Colouration.

Seems simple enough to follow.

Sorry but the opinion is skewed simply because there are no set rules to this hobby. A step outside of your personnel bubble me thinks is in order......

I think the same is as true (if not more so) for you. Why do you just accept that no rules is a good thing?

Again colouration?

What scale?

Ported speakers for example are affected by their proximity to walls. I have side firing woofers in my speakers which deliver a different image depending on which way the woofer is facing.....which is the most uncoloured way to place them?

Accept?

Why apply rules were not required. The flexibility of different kit allows for so much play.

As a young man I recall daisy chaining low powered stereo amps for gain to play party's.

Driving a set of tweeters without crossovers just by removing low frequencies with graphic equalisers - if you travel the world you'll see truely ingenious ways people get superb sound bypassing the 'rules' of hifi.

Accepting rules has nothing to do with anything......it's a hobby to enjoy by any means.

Rules should be left at the door.

The rules should be aimed at the manufacturers. Not the consumer. You can buy anything you want, mix and match, whatever...

 

[Thompsonuxb]

-

The coloration thing makes no sense with ref your other points - i.e is it real? , ones imagination?.....or what?

It's a scale: No differences --> Subtle differences --> Larger differences

Hence: Imagination --> Exaggeration --> Colouration.

Seems simple enough to follow.

Sorry but the opinion is skewed simply because there are no set rules to this hobby. A step outside of your personnel bubble me thinks is in order......

I think the same is as true (if not more so) for you. Why do you just accept that no rules is a good thing??

Again colouration?

What scale?

Ported speakers for example are affected by their proximity to walls. I have side firing woofers in my speakers which deliver a different image depending on which way the woofer is facing.....which is the most uncoloured way to place them?

Accept?

Why apply rules were not required. The flexibility of different kit allows for so much play.

As a young man I recall daisy chaining low powered stereo amps for gain to play party's.

Driving a set of tweeters without crossovers just by removing low frequencies with graphic equalisers - if you travel the world you'll see truely ingenious ways people get superb sound bypassing the 'rules' of hifi.

Accepting rules has nothing to do with anything......it's a hobby to enjoy by any means.

Rules should be left at the door.

The rules should be aimed at the manufacturers. Not the consumer. You can buy anything you want, mix and match, whatever... 

But the manufacturers are governed by rules and standards - pretty strict ones at that.

So..........?

 

[Native_bon]

In my opinion, most HiFi seems to falls along the scale of Imagination --> Exaggeration --> Colouration.?

At the base of the scale is Imagination; differences that are merely the result of audiophiles listening with their eyes, rather than their ears. This is common with just about anything you buy, knowing the price of a product will always have an impact on your assessment of its value. It's interesting that so many audiophiles are convinced that they are immune to any kind of price bias. We even suffer from technology bias, for some persons just seeing a digital source or a metal dome tweeter tells them that resulting music will be unsatisfying.?

The middle of the scale is Exaggeration; All those "night and day" differences that audiophiles hear when they install new a new tweak/component in their system, but that would be a nightmare to detect in DBT. IMO, any difference that can't easily be detected in a DBT is eitther imagined or subtle. Hence why I see the claims about night and day and lifting a veil from over my system etc.. as serious exaggeration.?

Finally at the end of the scale is Colouration; this is where "house sound" lives. The manfucaturer tailors the sound to appease particular tastes. These differences are real and generally not subtle. If all HiFi is aimed at being as accurate as possible, then why don't products start to sound similar at higher price ranges? Budget products will sound different simply because of the compromises required to achieve that low price. But as you reach statement prices, all the HiFi gear should start to sound more similar, as the compromises are no longer required. Yet we don't see people claiming that statement systems from Audio Note, Naim and ATC etc all sound similar.Shouldn't they all be getting closer to the goal of being accurate?

?

I think all these issues come about because there are no standards in HiFi (for either the playback or recording of music) Note: That issue was mentioned in an article on Sean Olive's blogspot.

I can sell a product that measures terribly and simply say "trust your ears". If someone mentions DBT, I can talk about how stressful DBT is and that you should just "trust your ears" (as long as it's during a sighted test). It doesn't matter if that person has never had his/her hearing tested. Whether that person even knows what to listen for.?

Obviously there are many other factors that would make this discussion of the state of HiFi more complex and I don't believe that all HiFi is on the I->E->C scale, but frankly I think my post is long enough as it is. So feel free to comment. You can add on or tear down my theory as you please. This is meant to be a discussion, not a monologue.

This the point I was trying to put across in the accurate thread. Most systems do not sound real,if people hear real through an average speaker dimensions most will not like it. Every sound wave we hear is just an
illusion of the instrument.

You can create the illusion of accuracy in many ways. That's why I think timing is key. Again two totally different systems can be very believable(dnt like using accurate) yet will portray this in different ways.

It all boils dwn to getting the musical message, and choice of presentation of the listener.

 

[Jota180]

-

The coloration thing makes no sense with ref your other points - i.e is it real? , ones imagination?.....or what?

It's a scale: No differences --> Subtle differences --> Larger differences

Hence: Imagination --> Exaggeration --> Colouration.

Seems simple enough to follow.

Sorry but the opinion is skewed simply because there are no set rules to this hobby. A step outside of your personnel bubble me thinks is in order......

I think the same is as true (if not more so) for you. Why do you just accept that no rules is a good thing?

Again colouration?

What scale?

Ported speakers for example are affected by their proximity to walls. I have side firing woofers in my speakers which deliver a different image depending on which way the woofer is facing.....which is the most uncoloured way to place them?

Accept?

Why apply rules were not required. The flexibility of different kit allows for so much play.

As a young man I recall daisy chaining low powered stereo amps for gain to play party's.

Driving a set of tweeters without crossovers just by removing low frequencies with graphic equalisers - if you travel the world you'll see truely ingenious ways people get superb sound bypassing the 'rules' of hifi.

Accepting rules has nothing to do with anything......it's a hobby to enjoy by any means.

Rules should be left at the door.

The rules should be aimed at the manufacturers. Not the consumer. You can buy anything you want, mix and match, whatever...

But the manufacturers are governed by rules and standards - pretty strict ones at that.

So..........?

What rules regarding to manufacturing and selling equipment claimed to be High Fidelity?

 

[Vladimir]

When a Business uses Science to serve Art, we get high quality reproduction of music. High fidelity is a synonim for high accuracy. I prefer accuracy because now everything gets called 'hi-fi'.

If a Business uses Pseudo-Science & Marketing to serves itself through Art, we get audiophile foo, rubbish compressed masterings, pointless high resolution audio, revival of outdated technology etc. We get what we have today. No rules, no standards, just boys with toys.

Research* has showed without any doubt that when people compare hi-fi systems in a double-blind test they significantly prefer the most neutral and accurate system. As soon as you lift the veil, poo turns to gold and diamond into coal.

*AES paper by Toole in 1986, available in the AES library.

 

[Thompsonuxb]

-

The coloration thing makes no sense with ref your other points - i.e is it real? , ones imagination?.....or what?

It's a scale: No differences --> Subtle differences --> Larger differences

Hence: Imagination --> Exaggeration --> Colouration.

Seems simple enough to follow.

Sorry but the opinion is skewed simply because there are no set rules to this hobby. A step outside of your personnel bubble me thinks is in order......

I think the same is as true (if not more so) for you. Why do you just accept that no rules is a good thing??

Again colouration?

What scale?

Ported speakers for example are affected by their proximity to walls. I have side firing woofers in my speakers which deliver a different image depending on which way the woofer is facing.....which is the most uncoloured way to place them?

Accept?

Why apply rules were not required. The flexibility of different kit allows for so much play.

As a young man I recall daisy chaining low powered stereo amps for gain to play party's.

Driving a set of tweeters without crossovers just by removing low frequencies with graphic equalisers - if you travel the world you'll see truely ingenious ways people get superb sound bypassing the 'rules' of hifi.

Accepting rules has nothing to do with anything......it's a hobby to enjoy by any means.

Rules should be left at the door.

The rules should be aimed at the manufacturers. Not the consumer. You can buy anything you want, mix and match, whatever...?

But the manufacturers are governed by rules and standards - pretty strict ones at that.

So..........?

What rules regarding to manufacturing and selling equipment claimed to be High Fidelity?

What?

 

[lindsayt]

Interesting points. I would expect some differences to remain, but things should start to converge far more than they do.

Whether you use Vinyl or Digital should make little/no difference at statement prices. Likewise SET/SS. Even speakers should start to converge.

Really really really large Elecrostats can produce full range sound (bass), but that's at statement prices:

http://www.soundlab-speakers.com/ultimate-px.html

The only major difference in speakers should be if you opt to create small, room friendly designs. But at statement prices, the expectation is generally that you should have a mansion anyway, so no need to design hifi to fit a 3.5 x 3 M space.

Why on earth should a small 2 way ported speaker sound like 4 way corner horns or electrostatics? Even if they are all expensive to hugely expensive?

The advantages and compromises of each approach will remain no matter how much money they cost to make, or how much money the manufacturer decides to charge for them.

Those Soundlab Ultimate PX speakers. It'd be interesting to find out if they have as crazily a weird frequency response as their A-1 model as measured by Stereophile.

 

[Thompsonuxb]

When a Business uses Science to serve Art, we get high quality reproduction of music. High fidelity is a synonim for high accuracy. I prefer accuracy because now everything gets called 'hi-fi'.?

If a Business uses Pseudo-Science & Marketing to serves itself through Art, we get audiophile foo, rubbish compressed masterings, pointless high resolution audio, revival of outdated technology etc. We get what we have today. No rules, no standards, just boys with toys.

Research* has showed without any doubt that when people compare hi-fi systems in a double-blind test they significantly prefer the most neutral and accurate system. As soon as you lift the veil, poo turns to gold and diamond into coal.?

?

*AES paper by Toole in 1986, available in the AES library.

Where is all this 'rage' coming from Vlad?

Look the reality is live music, the perfect venue does not exist - maybe a fully tiled bathroom suits vocals to a tee but put a drum kit in there and it go's south.

The perfect recording is a fantasy the perfect speaker a pipe dream......

We could search forever then die never finding the holy grail and if we do, chances are we'd be too deaf to appreciate it....... Maybe its time to start collecting stamps or something like that.

 

[Ajani]

Interesting points. I would expect some differences to remain, but things should start to converge far more than they do.

Whether you use Vinyl or Digital should make little/no difference at statement prices. Likewise SET/SS. Even speakers should start to converge.

Really really really large Elecrostats can produce full range sound (bass), but that's at statement prices:

http://www.soundlab-speakers.com/ultimate-px.html

The only major difference in speakers should be if you opt to create small, room friendly designs. But at statement prices, the expectation is generally that you should have a mansion anyway, so no need to design hifi to fit a 3.5 x 3 M space.

Why on earth should a small 2 way ported speaker sound like 4 way corner horns or electrostatics? Even if they are all expensive to hugely expensive?

Why would it? I specifically excluded small room friendly designs. Which is where small 2 ways would be. Clearly a speaker designed to deliver smaller scale and dynamics in modest sized listening rooms has a different goal from one aimed just to be as accurate as possible.

The advantages and compromises of each approach will remain no matter how much money they cost to make, or how much money the manufacturer decides to charge for them.

Sure, but those compromises should become smaller and smaller and the advantages should become less clear, if they are all aiming to be accurate. Otherwise it means all these speakers are just aimed at creating some kind of random / distorted sound.

If the compromises of a particular technology are so severe that they can't be minimised, then clearly it's time to look at new tech.

 

[Vladimir]

Look the reality is live music, the perfect venue does not exist - maybe a fully tiled bathroom suits vocals to a tee but put a drum kit in there and it go's south.

I couldn't have said it better myself. But I try not to these days.

 

[davedotco]

Look the reality is live music, the perfect venue does not exist - maybe a fully tiled bathroom suits vocals to a tee but put a drum kit in there and it go's south.

I couldn't have said it better myself. But I try not to these days.

Since I have been informed that the perfect venue does not exist, I am giving up live music.

What an rse...!

 

[lindsayt]

Ajani, the high end small 2 way ported speakers excel at imaging accuracy. The 4 way corner horns excel at dynamic accuracy. The electrostatics excel at midrange resolution accuracy.

No speakers excel at accuracy in ALL aspects of sound reproduction.

I'm not aware of any high end speakers that are aimed at creating random / distorted sounds.

The manufacturers will all claim that their top of the range high end speakers are accurate.

It's just that in the real world each design will be more accurate to certain aspects of the sound reproduction than others.

And there is no real convergence in how speakers sound as they get more and more expensive. Simply because of the large variation in their designs. Because of the different approaches of the various manufacturers.

And what new tech would you propose should be used to overcome the various compromises of every speaker made so far in the known history of the universe?

 

[Vladimir]

What live venue if music is made with samplers, tone generators, drum machines etc? How about most of studio recorded music which is done with overdubbing across continents and is oversaturated with tons of effects during production? Even recorded live events get post production.

 

[Thompsonuxb]

Look the reality is live music, the perfect venue does not exist - maybe a fully tiled bathroom suits vocals to a tee but put a drum kit in there and it go's south.

I couldn't have said it better myself. But I try not to these days.

Since I have been informed that the perfect venue does not exist, I am giving up live music.

What an rse...!

Now where did that come from Dave?

......honestly. If you've found the perfect venue that suits all music types I am happy for you.

But context man..... We are going into the New year.... C'mon!

 

[pyrrhon]

Ajani,

May I suggest exploring clues?

Dbt : it creates a context where you can't differentiate anymore. 2 factors for differentiation are 1-expectation, 2-long terme stable listening (ear calibration)

Imagination : of course since there is no music outside your soul, just air vibrations.

The final thing is our soul react to different wave length combined on mathematical proportion and induce emotions. I just wish there would be a Pythagoras alive to explain the music of the spheres to my poor brain. Harmonics are deeply involved in the emotions of music. But how and why! It's still not understood. Schopenhauer also had some amazing things to say about music.

 

[Ajani]

Ajani,

May I suggest exploring clues?

Dbt : it creates a context where you can't differentiate anymore. 2 factors for differentiation are 1-expectation, 2-long terme stable listening (ear calibration)

Imagination : of course since there is no music outside your soul, just air vibrations.

The final thing is our soul react to different wave length combined on mathematical proportion and induce emotions. I just wish there would be a Pythagoras alive to explain the music of the spheres to my poor brain. Harmonics are deeply involved in the emotions of music. But how and why! It's still not understood. Schopenhauer also had some amazing things to say about music.

What????

 

[pyrrhon]

I swear I'm sober and serious.

 

[Ajani]

Ajani, the high end small 2 way ported speakers excel at imaging accuracy. The 4 way corner horns excel at dynamic accuracy. The electrostatics excel at midrange resolution accuracy.

No speakers excel at accuracy in ALL aspects of sound reproduction.

I'm not aware of any high end speakers that are aimed at creating random / distorted sounds.

The manufacturers will all claim that their top of the range high end speakers are accurate.

It's just that in the real world each design will be more accurate to certain aspects of the sound reproduction than others.

And there is no real convergence in how speakers sound as they get more and more expensive. Simply because of the large variation in their designs. Because of the different approaches of the various manufacturers.

And what new tech would you propose should be used to overcome the various compromises of every speaker made so far in the known history of the universe?

No idea why you're so focused on large Horns and Electrostats. Those are not even nearly the most common type of speakers. Most speakers and statement speakers are multiple driver cone/box designs. If you think large horns and elocrostats are incapable of doing more than what they specialize in, then those designs are probably outdated. There is a reason the typical multi-driver box speaker is so popular (knowing you - I'm sure you'll write an essay to explain why that is, from your point of view). Those speakers can achieve all the specialities of the designs you mention, not as easily, but they can most certainly provide excellent dynamics and midrange clarity at statement prices.

Anyway, as usual, we disagree and clearly we will not reach an agreement on this. You think all speaker types are essentially so limited by the tech that there can be no convergence, and I think that's pure nonsense. IMO, only bad designs are so limited that they can only focus on one speciality.

 

[Andrewjvt]

In my opinion, most HiFi seems to falls along the scale of Imagination --> Exaggeration --> Colouration.?

At the base of the scale is Imagination; differences that are merely the result of audiophiles listening with their eyes, rather than their ears. This is common with just about anything you buy, knowing the price of a product will always have an impact on your assessment of its value. It's interesting that so many audiophiles are convinced that they are immune to any kind of price bias. We even suffer from technology bias, for some persons just seeing a digital source or a metal dome tweeter tells them that resulting music will be unsatisfying.?

The middle of the scale is Exaggeration; All those "night and day" differences that audiophiles hear when they install new a new tweak/component in their system, but that would be a nightmare to detect in DBT. IMO, any difference that can't easily be detected in a DBT is eitther imagined or subtle. Hence why I see the claims about night and day and lifting a veil from over my system etc.. as serious exaggeration.?

Finally at the end of the scale is Colouration; this is where "house sound" lives. The manfucaturer tailors the sound to appease particular tastes. These differences are real and generally not subtle. If all HiFi is aimed at being as accurate as possible, then why don't products start to sound similar at higher price ranges? Budget products will sound different simply because of the compromises required to achieve that low price. But as you reach statement prices, all the HiFi gear should start to sound more similar, as the compromises are no longer required. Yet we don't see people claiming that statement systems from Audio Note, Naim and ATC etc all sound similar.Shouldn't they all be getting closer to the goal of being accurate?

?

I think all these issues come about because there are no standards in HiFi (for either the playback or recording of music) Note: That issue was mentioned in an article on Sean Olive's blogspot.

I can sell a product that measures terribly and simply say "trust your ears". If someone mentions DBT, I can talk about how stressful DBT is and that you should just "trust your ears" (as long as it's during a sighted test). It doesn't matter if that person has never had his/her hearing tested. Whether that person even knows what to listen for.?

Obviously there are many other factors that would make this discussion of the state of HiFi more complex and I don't believe that all HiFi is on the I->E->C scale, but frankly I think my post is long enough as it is. So feel free to comment. You can add on or tear down my theory as you please. This is meant to be a discussion, not a monologue.

Apart from the all the imagination, expectation theory etc
What is the point your trying to make? Is it all hifi/speakers should sound the same or is it all a waste of money? Is it that people think expensive hifi sounds better than cheap hifi only because it costs more? Or something else?

 

[lindsayt]

Ajani, what actual experience do you have of listening to a variety of high end speakers?

And by a variety I mean covering the variety of design approaches mentioned in post #2 of this thread?

Can you name any conventional multi driver coned and domed speakers that match the midrange magic of Quad ESL 57's? Can you name any conventional multi driver coned and domed speakers that match Klipschorns or EV Patricians for dynamics?

 

[ellisdj]

I know the thread titles are intended differently buy hifi is all imagination and a combination of colourations this is not exclusive to the high end

You hear sound and have to imagine what you are listening to - there is no visual stimulus, the visual stimulus is quite often miles from the truth of the recording.
So imagination is what it's all about - anything that makes that more tangible to someone is priceless really I think

Then the hifi system is one mixture of colourations - starting with the room ending with the speakers.
The acoustics is the most interesting one to me personally - how can your listening room replicate abbey Road just for example it can't so that's one huge colouration just for starters.

I don't see why this is an issue or exclusive to the high end of the market it's not. No one forces anyone to buy anything if what you buy gives you a kick even some of the time you listen to it then it's been money well spent.
If it gives you a kick every time for all music! then that's when you have cracked it. I don't know many people who have done this hence the ongoing pursuit of it

 

[Vladimir]

Ajani, the high end small 2 way ported speakers excel at imaging accuracy. The 4 way corner horns excel at dynamic accuracy. The electrostatics excel at midrange resolution accuracy.

No speakers excel at accuracy in ALL aspects of sound reproduction.

I'm not aware of any high end speakers that are aimed at creating random / distorted sounds.

The manufacturers will all claim that their top of the range high end speakers are accurate.

It's just that in the real world each design will be more accurate to certain aspects of the sound reproduction than others.

And there is no real convergence in how speakers sound as they get more and more expensive. Simply because of the large variation in their designs. Because of the different approaches of the various manufacturers.

And what new tech would you propose should be used to overcome the various compromises of every speaker made so far in the known history of the universe?

No idea why you're so focused on large Horns and Electrostats. Those are not even nearly the most common type of speakers. Most speakers and statement speakers are multiple driver cone/box designs. If you think large horns and elocrostats are incapable of doing more than what they specialize in, then those designs are probably outdated. There is a reason the typical multi-driver box speaker is so popular (knowing you - I'm sure you'll write an essay to explain why that is, from your point of view). Those speakers can achieve all the specialities of the designs you mention, not as easily, but they can most certainly provide excellent dynamics and midrange clarity at statement prices.

Anyway, as usual, we disagree and clearly we will not reach an agreement on this. You think all speaker types are essentially so limited by the tech that there can be no convergence, and I think that's pure nonsense. IMO, only bad designs are so limited that they can only focus on one speciality.

You must be new.

All discussion with lindsayt end up with praising his system. Just let the man tell you why it is so great and why he loves it so much. Have some holiday spirit.

Peace and love.

 

[Ajani]

Ajani, the high end small 2 way ported speakers excel at imaging accuracy. The 4 way corner horns excel at dynamic accuracy. The electrostatics excel at midrange resolution accuracy.

No speakers excel at accuracy in ALL aspects of sound reproduction.

I'm not aware of any high end speakers that are aimed at creating random / distorted sounds.

The manufacturers will all claim that their top of the range high end speakers are accurate.

It's just that in the real world each design will be more accurate to certain aspects of the sound reproduction than others.

And there is no real convergence in how speakers sound as they get more and more expensive. Simply because of the large variation in their designs. Because of the different approaches of the various manufacturers.

And what new tech would you propose should be used to overcome the various compromises of every speaker made so far in the known history of the universe?

No idea why you're so focused on large Horns and Electrostats. Those are not even nearly the most common type of speakers. Most speakers and statement speakers are multiple driver cone/box designs. If you think large horns and elocrostats are incapable of doing more than what they specialize in, then those designs are probably outdated. There is a reason the typical multi-driver box speaker is so popular (knowing you - I'm sure you'll write an essay to explain why that is, from your point of view). Those speakers can achieve all the specialities of the designs you mention, not as easily, but they can most certainly provide excellent dynamics and midrange clarity at statement prices.

Anyway, as usual, we disagree and clearly we will not reach an agreement on this. You think all speaker types are essentially so limited by the tech that there can be no convergence, and I think that's pure nonsense. IMO, only bad designs are so limited that they can only focus on one speciality.

You must be new.

All discussion with lindsayt end up with praising his system. Just let the man tell you why it is so great and why he loves it so much. Have some holiday spirit.

Peace and love.

Yeah, I'm not sure why I bothered continuing a debate with him so long. I gave up on trying to get a point across to him in a previous thread and I'm done here and in general. It's just not worth effort, as he believes what he believes and neither of us are going to change our minds.

 

[Ajani]

In my opinion, most HiFi seems to falls along the scale of Imagination --> Exaggeration --> Colouration.

At the base of the scale is Imagination; differences that are merely the result of audiophiles listening with their eyes, rather than their ears. This is common with just about anything you buy, knowing the price of a product will always have an impact on your assessment of its value. It's interesting that so many audiophiles are convinced that they are immune to any kind of price bias. We even suffer from technology bias, for some persons just seeing a digital source or a metal dome tweeter tells them that resulting music will be unsatisfying.

The middle of the scale is Exaggeration; All those "night and day" differences that audiophiles hear when they install new a new tweak/component in their system, but that would be a nightmare to detect in DBT. IMO, any difference that can't easily be detected in a DBT is eitther imagined or subtle. Hence why I see the claims about night and day and lifting a veil from over my system etc.. as serious exaggeration.

Finally at the end of the scale is Colouration; this is where "house sound" lives. The manfucaturer tailors the sound to appease particular tastes. These differences are real and generally not subtle. If all HiFi is aimed at being as accurate as possible, then why don't products start to sound similar at higher price ranges? Budget products will sound different simply because of the compromises required to achieve that low price. But as you reach statement prices, all the HiFi gear should start to sound more similar, as the compromises are no longer required. Yet we don't see people claiming that statement systems from Audio Note, Naim and ATC etc all sound similar.Shouldn't they all be getting closer to the goal of being accurate?

I think all these issues come about because there are no standards in HiFi (for either the playback or recording of music) Note: That issue was mentioned in an article on Sean Olive's blogspot.

I can sell a product that measures terribly and simply say "trust your ears". If someone mentions DBT, I can talk about how stressful DBT is and that you should just "trust your ears" (as long as it's during a sighted test). It doesn't matter if that person has never had his/her hearing tested. Whether that person even knows what to listen for.

Obviously there are many other factors that would make this discussion of the state of HiFi more complex and I don't believe that all HiFi is on the I->E->C scale, but frankly I think my post is long enough as it is. So feel free to comment. You can add on or tear down my theory as you please. This is meant to be a discussion, not a monologue.

Apart from the all the imagination, expectation theory etc What is the point your trying to make? Is it all hifi/speakers should sound the same or is it all a waste of money? Is it that people think expensive hifi sounds better than cheap hifi only because it costs more? Or something else?

None of the above or maybe a little bit of all of it. HiFi is a complex area. I would say that the main point is that most HiFi is not aimed at accurate reproduction of the source material. Which raises a lot of questions.

For example, when I upgrade from one pair of speaker to the next, am I just swapping one set of colouration for another or am I actually improving the sound somehow? We see endless reviews claiming products are better than the next etc, but what's the basis for this? It all seems to be more about personal preference than anything else.

Whether HiFi is a waste of money is a personal decision and it depends on your goals. But I do find it amusing that many audiophiles chastise the general public for not being interested in HiFi. Yet we treat HiFi more like art than science (when it really should be science). So preaching about how brilliant our highly coloured systems are, is like complaining that the masses have no culture for failing to see why a painting of a single blue dot on a blank canvas is worth half a million dollars.