Have I missed the point on the Pono?

[Al ears]

As I said in my 'Is anyone buying a Pono' thread I feel it is not going to be as good as some people make out.

As we do not yet know the UK RRP I think it, in it's current format, does little more and sometimes less than the hi-res devices that are currently on the market. (Astel & Kern 120 / Colorfly C4 Pro etc.).

So no, I don't think you have missed the point. It is ill-conceived, and that shape isn't going to help it at all.

 

[matt49]

...there is no denying the volume of hi res comparable hi fi product in he market so there must be a consumer demand.

I'm not at all sure that follows.

Apparently the demand for hi-res (and DSD) capable devices in the US is very strong. This may not be the case in the UK, but who cares about the decrepit little UK market anyway?

 

[bigfish786]

surely an ipod is capable of storing and playing hi res music already? its just a hard drive in a pretty box with a bit of software.

i would imagine Apple could change the software enough to eliminate all the competition in one fell swoop.

regardless, i do not believe there is a big enough commercial market for hi-res music.

the last few years of technological progress in HD tv is a good enough guide to see how things will shape out, we have the tech to record and play HD at 720,1080, 2k, now 4k.. and soon 8k. is it commercially successfull? nope. majority of tv channels are still in less than HD quality, if you want 720 you have to pay, and its just not worth it. 1080 requires more expense, a blu-ray player and more expensive discs, and the higher res stuff is nowhere to be seen.

the re-invention of hi-res music will not work until everything becomes hi-res. and it also needs to be backwards compatible and not reliant on buying new, more expensive kit.

people still think/beleive that vinyl sounds better than cd and digital music, so hi-res music is fighting a losing battle.

we've had CD for 30 years now, and that hasn't moved very far in that time. the mass market does not support SACD or HDCD, it just churns out standard redbook.

for something to be a success, there needs to be demand AND supply. at the moment there is neither. (IMO)

 

[MrReaper182]

...there is no denying the volume of hi res comparable hi fi product in he market so there must be a consumer demand.

I'm not at all sure that follows.

Apparently the demand for hi-res (and DSD) capable devices in the US is very strong. This may not be the case in the UK, but who cares about the decrepit little UK market anyway?

I don't think the majority of the US music buying public care that much about hi-res music downloads. The people who do care in the US only make up a small percentage.

 

[MrReaper182]

surely an ipod is capable of storing and playing hi res music already? its just a hard drive in a pretty box with a bit of software.

i would imagine Apple could change the software enough to eliminate all the competition in one fell swoop.

regardless, i do not believe there is a big enough commercial market for hi-res music.

the last few years of technological progress in HD tv is a good enough guide to see how things will shape out, we have the tech to record and play HD at 720,1080, 2k, now 4k.. and soon 8k. is it commercially successfull? nope. majority of tv channels are still in less than HD quality, if you want 720 you have to pay, and its just not worth it. 1080 requires more expense, a blu-ray player and more expensive discs, and the higher res stuff is nowhere to be seen.

the re-invention of hi-res music will not work until everything becomes hi-res. and it also needs to be backwards compatible and not reliant on buying new, more expensive kit.

people still think/beleive that vinyl sounds better than cd and digital music, so hi-res music is fighting a losing battle.

we've had CD for 30 years now, and that hasn't moved very far in that time. the mass market does not support SACD or HDCD, it just churns out standard redbook.

for something to be a success, there needs to be demand AND supply. at the moment there is neither. (IMO)

I agree.

 

[manicm]

iPods have mediocre sound. In the last 7 years Apple have regressively inserted inferior dacs into their players. So for sound, I can almost guarantee the Pono will sound miles better.

 

[matt49]

I don't think the majority of the US music buying public care that much about hi-res music downloads. The people who do care in the US only make up a small percentage.

Sure, the majority will buy compressed files from iTunes. But people buying hi-fi in the US seem not to want to buy any equipment that can't cope with hi-res and DSD.

 

[Alec]

I don't think the majority of the US music buying public care that much about hi-res music downloads. The people who do care in the US only make up a small percentage.

Sure, the majority will buy compressed files from iTunes. But people buying hi-fi in the US seem not to want to buy any equipment that can't cope with hi-res and DSD.

How do you know tha? What do you mean by "hifi"?

 

[Alec]

...there is no denying the volume of hi res comparable hi fi product in he market so there must be a consumer demand.

I'm not at all sure that follows.

Apparently the demand for hi-res (and DSD) capable devices in the US is very strong. This may not be the case in the UK, but who cares about the decrepit little UK market anyway?

Either way, the one poit doesn't necessarily follow the other.

 

[matt49]

Sure, the majority will buy compressed files from iTunes. But people buying hi-fi in the US seem not to want to buy any equipment that can't cope with hi-res and DSD.

How do you know tha? What do you mean by "hifi"?

It's the view of a well known and non-stupid hi-fi journalist.

By "hi-fi" I mean high-fidelity equipment. But as we all know the meaning of the term is up for grabs.

...there is no denying the volume of hi res comparable hi fi product in he market so there must be a consumer demand.

Either way, the one poit doesn't necessarily follow the other.

Sure, I wasn't defending kmlav's logic. I was just making the point that there is actually strong demand, within the hi-fi sector, for hi-res files, albeit not necessarily in the UK.

Matt

 

[Crystalarts]

Hi,

i think people MAY be missing the point of Pono... yes.

What is success?

Neil Young set out to try to get Apple to introduce this initially holding talks with Steve Jobs. He has since been travelling around selling the concept to manufacturers. He is not out to make money from it (Traditional concept of success). Neither does he expect it to be what the majority WANT to listen to and therefore be a market leader (Another traditional indicator of success). He wanted to get this going within major manufacturers to offer listeners an alternative. a better sounding alternative. an end to poor MP3s etc. After not getting the buy in he was looking for (Steve Jobs was interested i believe - Steve would come home at night and put his vinyl on as opposed to mounting an ipd - but in the end died before they could get anything off the ground)

Neil Young therefore decided to crowdsource and guess what.... within the first day the money raised was 5 times higher than needed.... oh and : http://www.theguardian.com/music/2014/apr/16/neil-young-pono-kickstarter

This sounds like a hugely successful project to me. Just like Neil Young's car whch is environmentally friendly, he is looking for people to open their eyes at possibility... at change... at alternatives. To educate people. He will achieve this. Will Pono be mainstream? no. probably not. Will Pono drive competition and see all new mp3 players becoming FLAC/ALAC hi res players? Possibly. Will people be aware of Pono? Yes, its getting a lot of press in the USA and in music magazines.

So it depends who's definition of success we are using.

 

[kmlav]

I think that for the most part people will be consuming their music via the kitchen radio , car radio, or on some sort of portable device on the daily commute so I can understand the view that broader market does not care about the quality much. i do wonder how much music these people actually buy beyond a spotify subscription compared to a music enthusiast?

Putting to one side all arguments about what format is best why not sell the studio masters to the consumers instead of a version based on a standard set over 30 years ago. Things have moved on in the digital domain and I don't really understand why the recorded music industry is so backward. I just can't see any justifiable argument as to why not make all music available as studio masters and let the consumer decide if they value the format.

 

[andyjm]

Putting to one side all arguments about what format is best why not sell the studio masters to the consumers instead of a version based on a standard set over 30 years ago. Things have moved on in the digital domain and I don't really understand why the recorded music industry is so backward. I just can't see any justifiable argument as to why not make all music available as studio masters and let the consumer decide if they value the format.

You are confusing the delivery format with the content (as it would seem has Neil Young). The many existing formats (including those set 30 years ago) are more than capable of delivering high quality sound, unfortunately as the old expression goes 'garbage in, garbage out'. If the mix sucks, it will suck no matter which format is used to deliver it.

Uncompressed (in the dynamic range sense, not file size or delivery format) music clearly doesn't sell, or more companies would sell it. I think that the best that we can hope for is that record companies (do they still call them that?) realise there is a market for mixes with more dynamic range and these are sold to an 'audiophile' market at a premium price to justify the low volumes involved. This would involve have two versions of the music in circulation (the 'mainstream' and 'audiophile' mix), with all the associated hassle, but if sold as downloads at a higher price it might just make economic sense.

If the Pono results in a catalogue of well mixed versions of popular music becoming available, then I am all for that. As a piece of hardware, it makes no sense to me.

 

[The_Lhc]

i think people MAY be missing the point of Pono... yes.

What is success?

Neil Young set out to try to get Apple to introduce this initially holding talks with Steve Jobs. He has since been travelling around selling the concept to manufacturers. He is not out to make money from it (Traditional concept of success). Neither does he expect it to be what the majority WANT to listen to and therefore be a market leader (Another traditional indicator of success). He wanted to get this going within major manufacturers to offer listeners an alternative. a better sounding alternative. an end to poor MP3s etc. After not getting the buy in he was looking for (Steve Jobs was interested i believe - Steve would come home at night and put his vinyl on as opposed to mounting an ipd - but in the end died before they could get anything off the ground)

Neil Young therefore decided to crowdsource and guess what.... within the first day the money raised was 5 times higher than needed.... oh and : http://www.theguardian.com/music/2014/apr/16/neil-young-pono-kickstarter

This sounds like a hugely successful project to me. Just like Neil Young's car whch is environmentally friendly, he is looking for people to open their eyes at possibility... at change... at alternatives. To educate people. He will achieve this. Will Pono be mainstream? no. probably not. Will Pono drive competition and see all new mp3 players becoming FLAC/ALAC hi res players? Possibly. Will people be aware of Pono? Yes, its getting a lot of press in the USA and in music magazines.

So it depends who's definition of success we are using.

Only two problems that I can see with that:

1) He's taken so long to get this going (he was on TV talking about it three years ago) that Sony and A&K have now got the jump on him AND many mobiles will support 24-bit now, either natively or through software (I've been playing 24/96 on my HTC phones for a couple of years now, Poweramp now gives support for 24/192 as well), so he's a little late to the market.

2) I'm not sure Mr Young's hardware partners will be so keen on his (your) definition of success, I think it's safe to assume that they will actually want to make some money out of the venture.

 

[Crystalarts]

regarding point 2.

I believe the way it worked was that as long as they met their target from crowdsourcing.... they could afford to make and sell the PONOS to each person who paid for them up front. no risk. dont meet the target then dont build the things...

as it happens they completely obliterated their target (see link in my post) therefore its been an outstanding success. little investment but much sales.

i may be wrong...

 

[cheeseboy]

regarding point 2.

I believe the way it worked was that as long as they met their target from crowdsourcing.... they could afford to make and sell the PONOS to each person who paid for them up front. no risk. dont meet the target then dont build the things...

as it happens they completely obliterated their target (see link in my post) therefore its been an outstanding success. little investment but much sales.

i may be wrong...

I said the same thing on the last pono thread, but for some reason people didn't think that 6m in pre-sales is a success.... :?

 

[The_Lhc]

regarding point 2.

I believe the way it worked was that as long as they met their target from crowdsourcing.... they could afford to make and sell the PONOS to each person who paid for them up front. no risk. dont meet the target then dont build the things...

as it happens they completely obliterated their target (see link in my post) therefore its been an outstanding success. little investment but much sales.

i may be wrong...

I'm not sure I understand your point then, 6m units is a success in anyone's books, so why are you trying to redefine what "success" means?

 

[Crystalarts]

regarding point 2.

I believe the way it worked was that as long as they met their target from crowdsourcing.... they could afford to make and sell the PONOS to each person who paid for them up front. no risk. dont meet the target then dont build the things...

as it happens they completely obliterated their target (see link in my post) therefore its been an outstanding success. little investment but much sales.

i may be wrong...

I said the same thing on the last pono thread, but for some reason people didn't think that 6m in pre-sales is a success.... :?

6 million with little to no investment.... on a product everyone said was doomed to fail... but which has the backing of a ridiculous amount of musicians and that people in a large amount of audiophile forums are discussing... someone is buying them... I reckon 6 million beats Sony and other niche products... its a niche market and 6 mill is a good sales amount... and it builds this niche market into a bigger market through marketing, discussions and people being aware...

 

[Crystalarts]

regarding point 2.

I believe the way it worked was that as long as they met their target from crowdsourcing.... they could afford to make and sell the PONOS to each person who paid for them up front. no risk. dont meet the target then dont build the things...

as it happens they completely obliterated their target (see link in my post) therefore its been an outstanding success. little investment but much sales.

i may be wrong...

I'm not sure I understand your point then, 6m units is a success in anyone's books, so why are you trying to redefine what "success" means?

Because....Everyone is under the impression that it is a failure. 6m units is pretty successful however... assuming people still dont think so then there are OTHER measures of success we can follow. the original intentions of the project for example.

also, a lot of people are not just talking about initial figures... they are talking about long term viability... will PONO be around in 3 years? maybe not... but they MAY have done enough to push every other manufacturer to improve sound qaulity in their products to compete... If Apple feel this is added value then they will go that route and put PONO out of business... but Neil Young will probably still be thinking.... yes! success!!! suddently 100's of millions of people around the world have the chance to listen to music the way i have been arguing they should listen to it for years!

 

[Paul.]

regarding point 2.

I believe the way it worked was that as long as they met their target from crowdsourcing.... they could afford to make and sell the PONOS to each person who paid for them up front. no risk. dont meet the target then dont build the things...

as it happens they completely obliterated their target (see link in my post) therefore its been an outstanding success. little investment but much sales.

i may be wrong...

I'm not sure I understand your point then, 6m units is a success in anyone's books, so why are you trying to redefine what "success" means?

It's not 6million units, it's 6 million dollars raised. It's 18,200 units. don't forget all the pledges had rewards attached, and some pledges were as high as $5,000.

 

[Crystalarts]

regarding point 2.

I believe the way it worked was that as long as they met their target from crowdsourcing.... they could afford to make and sell the PONOS to each person who paid for them up front. no risk. dont meet the target then dont build the things...

as it happens they completely obliterated their target (see link in my post) therefore its been an outstanding success. little investment but much sales.

i may be wrong...

I'm not sure I understand your point then, 6m units is a success in anyone's books, so why are you trying to redefine what "success" means?

It's not 6million units, it's 6 million dollars raised. It's 18,200 units. don't forget all the pledges had rewards attached, and some pledges were as high as $5,000.

ah! good point! but also even more profit if some units were going for as much as 5k!

 

[BenLaw]

So, 18,200? Not a success.

Aiming to to get the product built by a big industry player? Not a success.

 

[The_Lhc]

regarding point 2.

I believe the way it worked was that as long as they met their target from crowdsourcing.... they could afford to make and sell the PONOS to each person who paid for them up front. no risk. dont meet the target then dont build the things...

as it happens they completely obliterated their target (see link in my post) therefore its been an outstanding success. little investment but much sales.

i may be wrong...

I'm not sure I understand your point then, 6m units is a success in anyone's books, so why are you trying to redefine what "success" means?

It's not 6million units, it's 6 million dollars raised. It's 18,200 units. don't forget all the pledges had rewards attached, and some pledges were as high as $5,000.

So, wait, it's NOT a success then? I DON'T UNDERSTAND!!!!11!!!

 

[Crystalarts]

Linn Sales last year was 16 million pounds......

so 6 million dollars in sales is not bad going for a start up.

 

[the record spot]

iPods have mediocre sound. In the last 7 years Apple have regressively inserted inferior dacs into their players. So for sound, I can almost guarantee the Pono will sound miles better.

Not so sure that pans out in practice. My 3rd gen Touch is about three years old, maybe four, but sounds excellent. No issues whatsoever. I hear the same about the DACs but I don't the Pono will sound great simply by being what it is.

Of arguably greater interest is the development of octo-core mobile phones, many of which will carry Mediatek's latest 24/192 onboard DAC. That'll slip under the radar but the phone are available (see Cubot on the web).