Has the forum died?

[drummerman]

In recent times, I have been trying, pretty successfull I think, to be polite and non aggressive in my posts even when responding to posts that are complete twaddle.

I would like to thank DDC for making the effort. You were rather confrontational when you first started posting, but noticeably changed your style, and are now an approachable and knowledgeable source of advice on several areas that are often asked about - especially small desktop speakers, and active speakers, spring to mind.

Pretty much the only thing daved... recommends. Heyho.

Your attempt at humour is pretty wide of the mark. Heyho to you too...!

Stop being a grumpy thing. Must keep that image of knowledge, reason and non-partial self proclaimed helpfulness up eh

Of course we all recommend what we like, normal isn't it and a pair of £150 active boxes are the bees knees ... apparently ;-)

Aaaanyway. Enough of the childish bickering from unreasonable moi. There is so much goodwill and hugging going on in another thread that I now feel guilty about not joining in.

Note to myself ... I seriously must get into that Xmas spirit soon ... .

 

[davedotco]

In recent times, I have been trying, pretty successfull I think, to be polite and non aggressive in my posts even when responding to posts that are complete twaddle.

I would like to thank DDC for making the effort. You were rather confrontational when you first started posting, but noticeably changed your style, and are now an approachable and knowledgeable source of advice on several areas that are often asked about - especially small desktop speakers, and active speakers, spring to mind.

Pretty much the only thing daved... recommends. Heyho.

Your attempt at humour is pretty wide of the mark. Heyho to you too...!

Stop being a grumpy thing. Must keep that image of knowledge, reason and non-partial self proclaimed helpfulness up eh

Of course we all recommend what we like, normal isn't it and a pair of £150 active boxes are the bees knees ... apparently ;-)

Aaaanyway. Enough of the childish bickering from unreasonable moi. There is so much goodwill and hugging going on in another thread that I now feel guilty about not joining in.

Note to myself ... I seriously must get into that Xmas spirit soon ... .

Must be a thing for you.

In the general spirit of bonhomie that is so pervasive on here at the moment I shall take that as another rather poor attempt at humour.

 

[scene]

I have been following this thread with interest, as I used to be a much more regular poster to the forums, but my interest has waned as threads seem to spiral downwards, there are a lot of to-and-fro threads with posts more concerned with having a go at the posters rather than answering the questions asked, topics that seem to give rise to granstanding and a general drop off in new members. And we end up with threads recommending what forums people would be better going to...

I would suggest that the forums do need a bit of re-invigorating and curating to help them grow:

- links to the forums at the top of the main page, not hidden under "More"

- search facility of some form within the forums to help new (and even some old) members not ask questions already answered and get shot down before they get to appreciate the wealth of knowledge existing members have

- closer moderation of each forum, with as suggested by others maybe longterm regular members allowed to help out - maybe by just being able to temporarily lock threads or temporarily hide clearly offensive (abusive/discriminatory) posts to stop things getting out of hand - actual actions against members probably needs to be carried out by Haymarket staff

- voting on threads if users think the thread is helpful / good (no voting possible on a thread you have posted on) - with maybe a forum of the top 10/25/100 most helpful posts. Positive affirmation helps promote positive behaviour

- ranking of users with not just how many posts, but ranking of number of "helpful posts", as voted by others, Again, extend the voting on threads to voting on posts (can't vote on your own posts) - so that people can see from replies who has made the most helpful posts in the past (other forums do this kind of ranking) - again more positive affirmation.

I like the forums, I like witty banter and there's no reason why there can't be non hifi/av related topics - but still want people to come here to answer questions and find out information that is really useful and practical, as I have in the past and would like to hope I will in the future.

 

[MajorFubar]

Lot of good ideas there Scene which unfortunately require considerably more buy-in and proactive engagement from the forum owners and moderators than they currently provide, so it won't happen. This forum exists as nothing but a token show, you only have to look at how little it is proactively contributed to by WHF / Haymarket staff. Myself and others have volunteered ourselves as moderators in the past and while my offer was accepted in principle, nothing ever came of it. This forum is nothing but a chore that the powers that be have to maintain along with doing their day job, it's not something which is at all positively and proactively embraced as an asset to the website and magazine. The rot set in when Claire and Andrew left, shortly followed by the goddamn awful site re-design. Actually I forget which came first.

 

[shadders]

I would suggest that the forums do need a bit of re-invigorating and curating to help them grow:

- voting on threads if users think the thread is helpful / good (no voting possible on a thread you have posted on) - with maybe a forum of the top 10/25/100 most helpful posts. Positive affirmation helps promote positive behaviour

- ranking of users with not just how many posts, but ranking of number of "helpful posts", as voted by others, Again, extend the voting on threads to voting on posts (can't vote on your own posts) - so that people can see from replies who has made the most helpful posts in the past (other forums do this kind of ranking) - again more positive affirmation.

Hi,

I think the forums are ok, there has been bad behaviour, and a person has been banned, so the system works.

I disagree with the voting system. I have seen other forums where this is abused, by people attacking others, but this is with anonymity - which is much worse. We need people to be open and direct, and if it ends in an argument, then so be it, at least we will know about the conflict, where voting can be divisive.

Voting encourages cliques, and another form of bullying. If a poster regularly gets voted down, by a group of people, this implies negativity, yet the poster will never know why. I have seen it so many times on other forums, where there is an under current of suspicion and pro and anti groups of certain products or vendors.

If someone disagrees with you, then the current form of the forum, means they have to state why and their reasons can be discussed or challenged.

Regards,

Shadders.

 

[scene]

I would suggest that the forums do need a bit of re-invigorating and curating to help them grow:

- voting on threads if users think the thread is helpful / good (no voting possible on a thread you have posted on) - with maybe a forum of the top 10/25/100 most helpful posts. Positive affirmation helps promote positive behaviour

- ranking of users with not just how many posts, but ranking of number of "helpful posts", as voted by others, Again, extend the voting on threads to voting on posts (can't vote on your own posts) - so that people can see from replies who has made the most helpful posts in the past (other forums do this kind of ranking) - again more positive affirmation.

Hi,

I think the forums are ok, there has been bad behaviour, and a person has been banned, so the system works.

I disagree with the voting system. I have seen other forums where this is abused, by people attacking others, but this is with anonymity - which is much worse. We need people to be open and direct, and if it ends in an argument, then so be it, at least we will know about the conflict, where voting can be divisive.

Voting encourages cliques, and another form of bullying. If a poster regularly gets voted down, by a group of people, this implies negativity, yet the poster will never know why. I have seen it so many times on other forums, where there is an under current of suspicion and pro and anti groups of certain products or vendors.

If someone disagrees with you, then the current form of the forum, means they have to state why and their reasons can be discussed or challenged.

Regards,

Shadders.

Hi Shadders, I agree with you that voting down gives rise to cliques and I've seen it on other forums. Hence why I'm suggesting voting up only - i.e. the "This thread/post was helpful". There is not voting down, only appreciation of a good comment, helpful tip, etc. There is, I admit the risk that a vendor could use this to "push" an account by using other accounts to appreciate it, but I suspect this could be spotted by forum mods (same x users always appreciating user y).

 

[MajorFubar]

Its not about there being positive and negative views towards a topic - its the way people do it and the frequency of hows its done.

Start a cable thread before anyone has posted anything about the actual cable in question - there is 10 negative comments quite often insulting with no actual content towards the product that has been mentioned.

I.e. the 10 posters have never seen, heard, tried the cable in question - yet they are straight in there with comments.

If you read that and thought, actually I would like to have a chat with someone on cables but I cant, then the next time I would like to have a chat about something else, I wont bother because if I start a thread it will likely go the same way

If those 10 people didnt post and a person posted a couple of times in a more positive type of thread - do you think they are more likely to post again in the future - quite obviously yes

So what have the 10 people who posted in the thread actually done - they have pushed away someone or multiple peopl from the forum - so your left with but a handful of people compared to what there whould be with such a limited range of threads the forum is boring and not attractive to become a member.

This is so obvious and clear to me as the reason this forum is so limited in posters and content.

How about an alternative view than just as many people could put off by the perception that the HiFi community is full of 'crackpots' advocating hifi-grade mains fuses and patch-cables costing the price of a used family car? Certainly that's the view of the pro world about us. I cringe at the term audiophile; it should be the word which describes exactly what I am when it comes to hifi, but instead it's a derogatively-parodied term evoking visions of Peter Belt hanging paper clips from his curtains and slipping pieces of paper under his turntable so it sits on an odd number of feet.

 

[shadders]

I would suggest that the forums do need a bit of re-invigorating and curating to help them grow:

- voting on threads if users think the thread is helpful / good (no voting possible on a thread you have posted on) - with maybe a forum of the top 10/25/100 most helpful posts. Positive affirmation helps promote positive behaviour

- ranking of users with not just how many posts, but ranking of number of "helpful posts", as voted by others, Again, extend the voting on threads to voting on posts (can't vote on your own posts) - so that people can see from replies who has made the most helpful posts in the past (other forums do this kind of ranking) - again more positive affirmation.

Hi,

I think the forums are ok, there has been bad behaviour, and a person has been banned, so the system works.

I disagree with the voting system. I have seen other forums where this is abused, by people attacking others, but this is with anonymity - which is much worse. We need people to be open and direct, and if it ends in an argument, then so be it, at least we will know about the conflict, where voting can be divisive.

Voting encourages cliques, and another form of bullying. If a poster regularly gets voted down, by a group of people, this implies negativity, yet the poster will never know why. I have seen it so many times on other forums, where there is an under current of suspicion and pro and anti groups of certain products or vendors.

If someone disagrees with you, then the current form of the forum, means they have to state why and their reasons can be discussed or challenged.

Regards,

Shadders.

Hi Shadders, I agree with you that voting down gives rise to cliques and I've seen it on other forums. Hence why I'm suggesting voting up only - i.e. the "This thread/post was helpful". There is not voting down, only appreciation of a good comment, helpful tip, etc. There is, I admit the risk that a vendor could use this to "push" an account by using other accounts to appreciate it, but I suspect this could be spotted by forum mods (same x users always appreciating user y).

Hi,

Ok, Yes, a thank you only button would be good. There may be the issue you have referred to, which is groups thanking, or voting up those comments specific to a company or product etc. The moderators are scarcely here anyway, so the bias or fraudulent use will probably not be captured.

Regards,

Shadders.

 

[davedotco]

Its not about there being positive and negative views towards a topic - its the way people do it and the frequency of hows its done.

Start a cable thread before anyone has posted anything about the actual cable in question - there is 10 negative comments quite often insulting with no actual content towards the product that has been mentioned.

I.e. the 10 posters have never seen, heard, tried the cable in question - yet they are straight in there with comments.

If you read that and thought, actually I would like to have a chat with someone on cables but I cant, then the next time I would like to have a chat about something else, I wont bother because if I start a thread it will likely go the same way

If those 10 people didnt post and a person posted a couple of times in a more positive type of thread - do you think they are more likely to post again in the future - quite obviously yes

So what have the 10 people who posted in the thread actually done - they have pushed away someone or multiple peopl from the forum - so your left with but a handful of people compared to what there whould be with such a limited range of threads the forum is boring and not attractive to become a member.

This is so obvious and clear to me as the reason this forum is so limited in posters and content.

How about an alternative view than just as many people could put off by the perception that the HiFi community is full of 'crackpots' advocating hifi-grade mains fuses and patch-cables costing the price of a used family car? Certainly that's the view of the pro world about us. I cringe at the term audiophile; it should be the word which describes exactly what I am when it comes to hifi, but instead it's a derogatively-parodied term evoking visions of Peter Belt hanging paper clips from his curtains and slipping pieces of paper under his turntable so it sits on an odd number of feet.

I recall him 'demonstrating' to a room full of reviewers, jounalists and enthusiasts who hung on his every word, hearing all the 'improvements' his wonderful inventions made.

At the next show we did a demonstration where a system was upgraded in six stages, each change 'approved' by a clear majority of the audience.

Except of course that the final system was the same as the one we started with, we had come ful circle. We were pressured to stop on the grounds that we were 'not helpful', which we did, as by then the 'punters' knew the trick and were no longer, in effect, listening in an 'unbiased' manner.

 

[ellisdj]

Its not about there being positive and negative views towards a topic - its the way people do it and the frequency of hows its done.

Start a cable thread before anyone has posted anything about the actual cable in question - there is 10 negative comments quite often insulting with no actual content towards the product that has been mentioned.

I.e. the 10 posters have never seen, heard, tried the cable in question - yet they are straight in there with comments.

If you read that and thought, actually I would like to have a chat with someone on cables but I cant, then the next time I would like to have a chat about something else, I wont bother because if I start a thread it will likely go the same way

If those 10 people didnt post and a person posted a couple of times in a more positive type of thread - do you think they are more likely to post again in the future - quite obviously yes

So what have the 10 people who posted in the thread actually done - they have pushed away someone or multiple peopl from the forum - so your left with but a handful of people compared to what there whould be with such a limited range of threads the forum is boring and not attractive to become a member.

This is so obvious and clear to me as the reason this forum is so limited in posters and content.

How about an alternative view than just as many people could put off by the perception that the HiFi community is full of 'crackpots' advocating hifi-grade mains fuses and patch-cables costing the price of a used family car? Certainly that's the view of the pro world about us. I cringe at the term audiophile; it should be the word which describes exactly what I am when it comes to hifi, but instead it's a derogatively-parodied term evoking visions of Peter Belt hanging paper clips from his curtains and slipping pieces of paper under his turntable so it sits on an odd number of feet.

There are no positive threads on such topics on this forum and look at where the forum is - so I would say major the opposite situation is true

If you can have a conversation on here about topics like fuses for example then its a welcoming place to be - its as simple as that really in my eyes. You cant and therefore its not.

I dont see audiophile in the same stereotypical way as you - maybe its because I am a lot younger and missed all that negativity towards the term that you are on about. I am happy to be an audiophile, I care about sound quality and spend a lot of time and a ton of money on sound quality . Thats nothing to be ashamed of in my eyes.

 

[MajorFubar]

maybe its because I am a lot younger and missed all that negativity towards the term that you are on about.

If you are, then even though we don't always agree on methods, I'm glad that the hobby is still attracting at least some young enthusiasts like yourself who are interested in experimenting and who want more than a simple plug-n-play solution. But unfortunately it also means you really couldn't be less of a steretypical example of your age-group, and those people who would start the kind of posts you want to see are in turn perhaps double your age and less likely to be posting on internet forums.

 

[Pedro2]

I think problems occur when comments stray from being about the kit and how it sounds to those concerning the owner (personality, peculiarity, intelligence, age ........ etc). I'm really not sure whether a fuse or power lead can affect sound quality. I try to refrain, however, from judging the personal qualities of the poster (over the years, I've changed fuses and power leads by the way). Comments about hi fi kit is one thing; about people is something else.

 

[shadders]

Its not about there being positive and negative views towards a topic - its the way people do it and the frequency of hows its done.

Start a cable thread before anyone has posted anything about the actual cable in question - there is 10 negative comments quite often insulting with no actual content towards the product that has been mentioned.

I.e. the 10 posters have never seen, heard, tried the cable in question - yet they are straight in there with comments.

If you read that and thought, actually I would like to have a chat with someone on cables but I cant, then the next time I would like to have a chat about something else, I wont bother because if I start a thread it will likely go the same way

If those 10 people didnt post and a person posted a couple of times in a more positive type of thread - do you think they are more likely to post again in the future - quite obviously yes

So what have the 10 people who posted in the thread actually done - they have pushed away someone or multiple peopl from the forum - so your left with but a handful of people compared to what there whould be with such a limited range of threads the forum is boring and not attractive to become a member.

This is so obvious and clear to me as the reason this forum is so limited in posters and content.

How about an alternative view than just as many people could put off by the perception that the HiFi community is full of 'crackpots' advocating hifi-grade mains fuses and patch-cables costing the price of a used family car? Certainly that's the view of the pro world about us. I cringe at the term audiophile; it should be the word which describes exactly what I am when it comes to hifi, but instead it's a derogatively-parodied term evoking visions of Peter Belt hanging paper clips from his curtains and slipping pieces of paper under his turntable so it sits on an odd number of feet.

There are no positive threads on such topics on this forum and look at where the forum is - so I would say major the opposite situation is true

If you can have a conversation on here about topics like fuses for example then its a welcoming place to be - its as simple as that really in my eyes. You cant and therefore its not.

I dont see audiophile in the same stereotypical way as you - maybe its because I am a lot younger and missed all that negativity towards the term that you are on about. I am happy to be an audiophile, I care about sound quality and spend a lot of time and a ton of money on sound quality . Thats nothing to be ashamed of in my eyes.

Hi,

I think you may be unrealistic in what you want from a forum. My interpretation is that you only want those people who agree with you about hifi components to be on this forum.

Example - you change your mains cable and you extol it's virtues in the positive change in sound. Another poster has a completely different experience, and states the cable you have purchased, to their ears sounds like the worst thing since transistor radios were invented in the 1960's, and states so on the forum.

In this scenario, the poster agrees with you that a mains cable changes the sound, but offers a very negative experience of said cable.

Do you in your quest for a change in this forum accept this response or reject it as being negative?

Example - as per above example, but the response from another poster is that mains cables do not change the sound and you are deluding yourself.

Do you accept this response as a positive, or reject it as being negative?

Regards,

Shadders.

 

[Samd]

I think problems occur when comments stray from being about the kit and how it sounds to those concerning the owner (personality, peculiarity, intelligence, age ........ etc). I'm really not sure whether a fuse or power lead can affect sound quality. I try to refrain, however, from judging the personal qualities of the poster (over the years, I've changed fuses and power leads by the way). Comments about hi fi kit is one thing; about people is something else.

Spot on! Attack the post but never the poster! I may be far off on this but I suspect the incidence of members here who are of the male variety, is very high. I wonder if some of the vile bile would be spittooned so often were there a better balance.

 

[ellisdj]

shadders if the poster has tried the cable or cable range or any of the cables from the company and has feedback on any of it positive or negative then it comes across as constructive criticism if negative and to me thats positive to read at least and constructive for more chat. This would allow people to also post their positive experiences which doesnt happen now at all

On this forum threads are descended upon by certain members with no experience or even comments directly about the product mentioned in a complete negative, sometimes attacking, insulting and sarcastic way. I know for a fact this stops people posting as they think whats the point - people I know have told me this, if it stops them posting, it stops them being involved, thats not good. Its not just cable threads obviously I think the behaviour moves into other threads and for some reason people want to challenge everything? Major even said it, why are people being challenged?

 

[shadders]

shadders if the poster has tried the cable or cable range or any of the cables from the company and has feedback on any of it positive or negative then it comes across as constructive criticism if negative and to me thats positive to read at least and constructive for more chat. This would allow people to also post their positive experiences which doesnt happen now at all

On this forum threads are descended upon by certain members with no experience or even comments directly about the product mentioned in a complete negative, sometimes attacking, insulting and sarcastic way. I know for a fact this stops people posting as they think whats the point - people I know have told me this, if it stops them posting, it stops them being involved, thats not good. Its not just cable threads obviously I think the behaviour moves into other threads and for some reason people want to challenge everything? Major even said it, why are people being challenged?

Hi,

Ok, I think we have determined what you and others want. They only want people who have the same beliefs regarding hifi equipment to post and discuss threads that they are involved in, or equipment changes that they implement.

When I state beliefs, then this is accurate, since science indicates at this point in time, that a mains cable, or fuse, in the power supply will not have an effect on the sound. This term belief, is not meant to be derisory, but is the correct meaning for a situation or effect that has no scientific basis.

I am happy to be corrected on this aspect.

As per previous, I think you and others should state that you only want those people with the same belief to post, and this will reduce the number of people disagreeing with your premise, as opposed to the experience.

Essentially, you will never be able to create a safe space on the forum, as it is an open forum, and you cannot vet every person to ensure that they hold the same beliefs as yourselves.

Regards,

Shadders.

 

[ellisdj]

Your twisting that to be argumentative because it's the 5th time I have explained the same thing.

As I said 4 pages ago keep up the good work it's doing the forum the world of good.

 

[manix]

Sorry to say this unless something major changes you should get used to a low amount of regular posters.

Put it this way over the last couple of weeks I could of started loads of threads but the simple answer why I wouldn't this - this isn't the place, I really could not be bothered to waste my time writing even one thread out.

Simple start to fix things would be -

Get some proper moderators on here who have in depth knowledge and post regualarly.

The forum layout/options/how it's works is rubbish.

WHF should stop all these rubbish articles on the front page of dubious deals - black friday/cyber Monday. Sure let companies advertise and leave it at that.

Make sure stuff is in the right place on the forum. Look if a thread is about powersupplies/cables etc it should be in a cables/powersupplies sub forum not in hi-fi.

Once a forum is in a certain state you get some regular posters who simply don't have the knowledge and just write garbage. So attracting the knowledgeable level headed people you need who would be the foundation of the forum resurection/improvement becomes a real problem. Without these people improving the overal numbers on the forum is a up hill task.

 

[shadders]

Your twisting that to be argumentative because it's the 5th time I have explained the same thing.

As I said 4 pages ago keep up the good work it's doing the forum the world of good.

Hi,

No, I am not twisting anything.

Science only progresses through constant review, analysis, experimentation, critical thinking etc.

You have to accept that others have a different view to yourself and others who hold the same beliefs. If you only want to communicate with people who hold the same beliefs as yourself, then you could start your own forum, or join another.

You seem to be dictating what people should state as based on your assessment, derived from your beliefs. This is an open forum, and we all have different beliefs, but you seem to want only people with your set of beliefs to frequent this forum.

I believe in science, and the rules and factual statements based on scientific evidence etc. Why should you deny my participation in threads based on my beliefs?

I am happy not to post on your cable threads etc., but you cannot expect everyone not to comment.

Regards,

Shadders.

 

[ellisdj]

No shadders I am suggesting all people be allowed to be involved not only those with the same thinking as the few who try and dominate certain threads, its actually the complete reversal situation you are implying that I am trying to dictate - as I said twisting what I am saying - very clearly twisting it.

Read the post above yours - the chap sums up how other ethusiasts feel about this forum - sums up what I have been saying quite well, why would be bother writing about what he is doing?

I dont agree that people write rubbish - nothing is rubbish and yet all of it can be to someone else, let everyone write what they want and watch the participators increase and the content vary and improve, more people get ineterested which is great for everyone on the forum. There would be more people for you to challenge shadders that would make your day

 

[shadders]

No shadders I am suggesting all people be allowed to be involved not only those with the same thinking as the few who try and dominate certain threads, its actually the complete reversal situation you are implying that I am trying to dictate - as I said twisting what I am saying - very clearly twisting it.

Read the post above yours - the chap sums up how other ethusiasts feel about this forum - sums up what I have been saying quite well.

Hi,

Your comments have inferred that only like minded individuals are what you accept as posters in your threads.

If it was the same old, small numbers of people, posting in threads causing the disruption, then just ignore them.

The problem is, that disruption to you, may be a valid point to the person posting.

Any moderation of peoples views on this forum will be severely detrimental to free speech.

Why don't you define as a list, what can or cannot be stated on this forum? Then we can refine the approach from there.

Let's assume that rudeness is globally unacceptable.

Regards,

Shadders.