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Harbeth 40th Anniversary

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Andrewjvt

New member
Jun 18, 2014
99
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0
Infiniteloop said:
Andrewjvt said:
The magico speakers are a rip off.

Unless speaker bracing is as expensive as a cheap sports car
You mean along with custom aluminium extrusions, beryllium tweeters, nanotube diaphragms, titanium voice coils etc, all designed and made in-house?

 
Yes

How much mark up do you think they are making?
 

Andrewjvt

New member
Jun 18, 2014
99
1
0
Infiniteloop said:
Andrewjvt said:
Infiniteloop said:
Andrewjvt said:
The magico speakers are a rip off.

Unless speaker bracing is as expensive as a cheap sports car
You mean along with custom aluminium extrusions, beryllium tweeters, nanotube diaphragms, titanium voice coils etc, all designed and made in-house?

 
Yes
Um. Okay.
I asked the question as all these companies are charging as much as they can
Not just harbeth. All of them.

Wouldnt you just love to know the actual cost of all these things?
Amps, speakers, dacs etc?
 

Infiniteloop

Well-known member
Jul 23, 2010
51
5
18,545
Andrewjvt said:
Infiniteloop said:
Andrewjvt said:
Infiniteloop said:
Andrewjvt said:
The magico speakers are a rip off.

Unless speaker bracing is as expensive as a cheap sports car
You mean along with custom aluminium extrusions, beryllium tweeters, nanotube diaphragms, titanium voice coils etc, all designed and made in-house?
Yes
Um. Okay.
I asked the question as all these companies are charging as much as they can Not just harbeth. All of them
Of course they are. None of them are charities. But some have better design sensibilities and, how shall I put it?, a sense of self respect.

Anyone that can charge several thousand pounds for a product that has an element in it that appears to be bound by several yards of what looks like duct tape stapled to the back of its inner wall and think it's okay, because the customer is unlikely to see it, doesnt seem to have much pride in their manufacturing, or respect for their customers, to my mind.
 

Andrewjvt

New member
Jun 18, 2014
99
1
0
Infiniteloop said:
Andrewjvt said:
Infiniteloop said:
Andrewjvt said:
Infiniteloop said:
Andrewjvt said:
The magico speakers are a rip off.

Unless speaker bracing is as expensive as a cheap sports car
You mean along with custom aluminium extrusions, beryllium tweeters, nanotube diaphragms, titanium voice coils etc, all designed and made in-house?

 
Yes
Um. Okay.
I asked the question as all these companies are charging as much as they can Not just harbeth. All of them
Of course they are. None of them are charities. But some have better design sensibilities and, how shall I put it?, a sense of self respect. 

Anyone that can charge several thousand pounds for a product that has an element in it that appears to be bound by several yards of what looks like duct tape stapled to the back of its inner wall and think it's okay, because the customer is unlikely to see it, doesnt seem to have much pride in their manufacturing, or respect for their customers, to my mind.
They should change the insides to look all space age and call it some fancy market gimmick name everybody will be pleased to be ripped off.
 

Infiniteloop

Well-known member
Jul 23, 2010
51
5
18,545
Andrewjvt said:
Infiniteloop said:
Andrewjvt said:
Infiniteloop said:
Andrewjvt said:
Infiniteloop said:
Andrewjvt said:
The magico speakers are a rip off.

Unless speaker bracing is as expensive as a cheap sports car
You mean along with custom aluminium extrusions, beryllium tweeters, nanotube diaphragms, titanium voice coils etc, all designed and made in-house?
Yes
Um. Okay.
I asked the question as all these companies are charging as much as they can Not just harbeth. All of them
Of course they are. None of them are charities. But some have better design sensibilities and, how shall I put it?, a sense of self respect.

Anyone that can charge several thousand pounds for a product that has an element in it that appears to be bound by several yards of what looks like duct tape stapled to the back of its inner wall and think it's okay, because the customer is unlikely to see it, doesnt seem to have much pride in their manufacturing, or respect for their customers, to my mind.
They should change the insides to look all space age and call it some fancy market gimmick name everybody will be pleased to be ripped off.
Or keep it the same and charge accordingly.....

Seriously, do you think this level of shoddy assembly is acceptable? - Don't you think anyone with a pair of these seeing what the insides are like would feel ripped off at any price?
 

Al ears

Moderator
Infiniteloop said:
Andrewjvt said:
Infiniteloop said:
Andrewjvt said:
Infiniteloop said:
Andrewjvt said:
Infiniteloop said:
Andrewjvt said:
The magico speakers are a rip off.

Unless speaker bracing is as expensive as a cheap sports car
You mean along with custom aluminium extrusions, beryllium tweeters, nanotube diaphragms, titanium voice coils etc, all designed and made in-house?
Yes
Um. Okay.
I asked the question as all these companies are charging as much as they can Not just harbeth. All of them
Of course they are. None of them are charities. But some have better design sensibilities and, how shall I put it?, a sense of self respect.

Anyone that can charge several thousand pounds for a product that has an element in it that appears to be bound by several yards of what looks like duct tape stapled to the back of its inner wall and think it's okay, because the customer is unlikely to see it, doesnt seem to have much pride in their manufacturing, or respect for their customers, to my mind.
They should change the insides to look all space age and call it some fancy market gimmick name everybody will be pleased to be ripped off.
Or keep it the same and charge accordingly.....

Seriously, do you think this level of shoddy assembly is acceptable? - Don't you think anyone with a pair of these seeing what the insides are like would feel ripped off at any price?
No, which is precisely why they own a pair in the first place. Have you seen the build quality and insides of an original pair of LS3/5a's?
 

Andrewjvt

New member
Jun 18, 2014
99
1
0
Infiniteloop said:
Andrewjvt said:
Infiniteloop said:
Andrewjvt said:
Infiniteloop said:
Andrewjvt said:
Infiniteloop said:
Andrewjvt said:
The magico speakers are a rip off.

Unless speaker bracing is as expensive as a cheap sports car
You mean along with custom aluminium extrusions, beryllium tweeters, nanotube diaphragms, titanium voice coils etc, all designed and made in-house?

 
Yes
Um. Okay.
I asked the question as all these companies are charging as much as they can Not just harbeth. All of them
Of course they are. None of them are charities. But some have better design sensibilities and, how shall I put it?, a sense of self respect. 

Anyone that can charge several thousand pounds for a product that has an element in it that appears to be bound by several yards of what looks like duct tape stapled to the back of its inner wall and think it's okay, because the customer is unlikely to see it, doesnt seem to have much pride in their manufacturing, or respect for their customers, to my mind.
They should change the insides to look all space age and call it some fancy market gimmick name everybody will be pleased to be ripped off.
Or keep it the same and charge accordingly.....

Seriously, do you think this level of shoddy assembly is acceptable? - Don't you think anyone with a pair of these seeing what the insides are like would feel ripped off at any price?
That the sound quality is compromised as a result of the way it looks inside?

Ive never heard them so please can you explain to me how the design makes a bad job of the sound?

Is the design not 'audiophille' enough?
 

Macspur

Well-known member
May 3, 2010
77
0
18,540
If I remember later, I'll post Loops concerns on the Harbeth forum, Alan Shaw will be keen to respond, as I know he takes great pride in his speakers.

Mac
 

avole

New member
Jul 15, 2016
17
0
0
Harbeths are built according to the principles laid down by Harwood and the other engineers involved in the development when he worked for the BBC. Just about all LS3/5a et al follow these principles, including the sompanies mentioned in the Stereophile review. If you understand that, you'll understand why they look as they do inside. There's nothing cheap about them, the money goes into the development of the cabinet, drivers and crossover.

Magico use an entirely different approach, and presumably given their massive prices, obviously expect their owners to look inside and see bling. Harbeth, and Spendor, and Stirling expect their owners to listen. That, by the way, is the case for most speaker manufacturers irrespective of price, and, were you to open their speakers up, you'd see something as plain as the Harbeths appear to be.

By the way, I have owned Harbeth speakers, the small ones, but sold them as they couldn't compare with my SFs.
 

Al ears

Moderator
avole said:
Harbeths are built according to the principles laid down by Harwood and the other engineers involved in the development when he worked for the BBC. Just about all LS3/5a et al follow these principles, including the sompanies mentioned in the Stereophile review. If you understand that, you'll understand why they look as they do inside. There's nothing cheap about them, the money goes into the development of the cabinet, drivers and crossover.

Magico use an entirely different approach, and presumably given their massive prices, obviously expect their owners to look inside and see bling. Harbeth, and Spendor, and Stirling expect their owners to listen. That, by the way, is the case for most speaker manufacturers irrespective of price, and, were you to open their speakers up, you'd see something as plain as the Harbeths appear to be.

By the way, I have owned Harbeth speakers, the small ones, but sold them as they couldn't compare with my SFs.
I take your point but fail to see just how anyone is going to look inside any Magico speaker.. ;-)
 

Andrewjvt

New member
Jun 18, 2014
99
1
0
Al ears said:
avole said:
Harbeths are built according to the principles laid down by Harwood and the other engineers involved in the development when he worked for the BBC. Just about all LS3/5a et al follow these principles, including the sompanies mentioned in the Stereophile review. If you understand that, you'll understand why they look as they do inside. There's nothing cheap about them, the money goes into the development of the cabinet, drivers and crossover.

Magico use an entirely different approach, and presumably given their massive prices, obviously expect their owners to look inside and see bling. Harbeth, and Spendor, and Stirling expect their owners to listen.  That, by the way, is the case for most speaker manufacturers irrespective of price, and, were you to open their speakers up, you'd see something as plain as the Harbeths appear to be.

By the way, I have owned Harbeth speakers, the small ones, but sold them as they couldn't compare with my SFs. 
I take your point but fail to see just how anyone is going to look inside any Magico speaker..  ;-)
In the advertising brochure.
Its a selling point and one off the many reasons to get a second bond.
 

chebby

Well-known member
Jun 2, 2008
1,233
5
19,195
Macspur said:
If I remember later, I'll post Loops concerns on the Harbeth forum, Alan Shaw will be keen to respond, as I know he takes great pride in his speakers.

Mac
I will keep checking 'Today's posts' for that. Looking forward to the discussion.

I am also of the opinion that the interior 'cosmetics' of a speaker are of secondary concern to the way it sounds.

Ok the Harbeths didn't have a Meccano set stuffed up it's ar.... err .... innards.
 

Al ears

Moderator
Andrewjvt said:
Al ears said:
avole said:
Harbeths are built according to the principles laid down by Harwood and the other engineers involved in the development when he worked for the BBC. Just about all LS3/5a et al follow these principles, including the sompanies mentioned in the Stereophile review. If you understand that, you'll understand why they look as they do inside. There's nothing cheap about them, the money goes into the development of the cabinet, drivers and crossover.

Magico use an entirely different approach, and presumably given their massive prices, obviously expect their owners to look inside and see bling. Harbeth, and Spendor, and Stirling expect their owners to listen. That, by the way, is the case for most speaker manufacturers irrespective of price, and, were you to open their speakers up, you'd see something as plain as the Harbeths appear to be.

By the way, I have owned Harbeth speakers, the small ones, but sold them as they couldn't compare with my SFs.
I take your point but fail to see just how anyone is going to look inside any Magico speaker.. ;-)
In the advertising brochure. Its a selling point and one off the many reasons to get a second bond.
I thought you meant taking them apart once they had actually bought a pair.
 

Andrewjvt

New member
Jun 18, 2014
99
1
0
Al ears said:
Andrewjvt said:
Al ears said:
avole said:
Harbeths are built according to the principles laid down by Harwood and the other engineers involved in the development when he worked for the BBC. Just about all LS3/5a et al follow these principles, including the sompanies mentioned in the Stereophile review. If you understand that, you'll understand why they look as they do inside. There's nothing cheap about them, the money goes into the development of the cabinet, drivers and crossover.

Magico use an entirely different approach, and presumably given their massive prices, obviously expect their owners to look inside and see bling. Harbeth, and Spendor, and Stirling expect their owners to listen.  That, by the way, is the case for most speaker manufacturers irrespective of price, and, were you to open their speakers up, you'd see something as plain as the Harbeths appear to be.

By the way, I have owned Harbeth speakers, the small ones, but sold them as they couldn't compare with my SFs. 
I take your point but fail to see just how anyone is going to look inside any Magico speaker..  ;-)
In the advertising brochure. Its a selling point and one off the many reasons to get a second bond.
I thought you meant taking them apart once they had actually bought a pair.
Only richie rich could do that.
 

Al ears

Moderator
Andrewjvt said:
Al ears said:
Andrewjvt said:
Al ears said:
avole said:
Harbeths are built according to the principles laid down by Harwood and the other engineers involved in the development when he worked for the BBC. Just about all LS3/5a et al follow these principles, including the sompanies mentioned in the Stereophile review. If you understand that, you'll understand why they look as they do inside. There's nothing cheap about them, the money goes into the development of the cabinet, drivers and crossover.

Magico use an entirely different approach, and presumably given their massive prices, obviously expect their owners to look inside and see bling. Harbeth, and Spendor, and Stirling expect their owners to listen. That, by the way, is the case for most speaker manufacturers irrespective of price, and, were you to open their speakers up, you'd see something as plain as the Harbeths appear to be.

By the way, I have owned Harbeth speakers, the small ones, but sold them as they couldn't compare with my SFs.
I take your point but fail to see just how anyone is going to look inside any Magico speaker.. ;-)
In the advertising brochure. Its a selling point and one off the many reasons to get a second bond.
I thought you meant taking them apart once they had actually bought a pair.
Only richie rich could do that.
And he would need a light-sabre. :)
 

Macspur

Well-known member
May 3, 2010
77
0
18,540
avole said:
Harbeths are built according to the principles laid down by Harwood and the other engineers involved in the development when he worked for the BBC. Just about all LS3/5a et al follow these principles, including the sompanies mentioned in the Stereophile review. If you understand that, you'll understand why they look as they do inside. There's nothing cheap about them, the money goes into the development of the cabinet, drivers and crossover.

Magico use an entirely different approach, and presumably given their massive prices, obviously expect their owners to look inside and see bling. Harbeth, and Spendor, and Stirling expect their owners to listen. That, by the way, is the case for most speaker manufacturers irrespective of price, and, were you to open their speakers up, you'd see something as plain as the Harbeths appear to be.

By the way, I have owned Harbeth speakers, the small ones, but sold them as they couldn't compare with my SFs.
Not an arguement, as far as I'm concerned anyway, just interesting to read others perceptions. Btw, which SF's do you own? another brand I like.

Mac
 

Infiniteloop

Well-known member
Jul 23, 2010
51
5
18,545
Macspur said:
If I remember later, I'll post Loops concerns on the Harbeth forum, Alan Shaw will be keen to respond, as I know he takes great pride in his speakers.

Mac
I'd look forward to any dialogue from a fellow designer (albeit a different product category) on design principles and ethics.
 

Infiniteloop

Well-known member
Jul 23, 2010
51
5
18,545
Andrewjvt said:
Infiniteloop said:
Andrewjvt said:
Infiniteloop said:
Andrewjvt said:
Infiniteloop said:
Andrewjvt said:
Infiniteloop said:
Andrewjvt said:
The magico speakers are a rip off.

Unless speaker bracing is as expensive as a cheap sports car
You mean along with custom aluminium extrusions, beryllium tweeters, nanotube diaphragms, titanium voice coils etc, all designed and made in-house?
Yes
Um. Okay.
I asked the question as all these companies are charging as much as they can Not just harbeth. All of them
Of course they are. None of them are charities. But some have better design sensibilities and, how shall I put it?, a sense of self respect.

Anyone that can charge several thousand pounds for a product that has an element in it that appears to be bound by several yards of what looks like duct tape stapled to the back of its inner wall and think it's okay, because the customer is unlikely to see it, doesnt seem to have much pride in their manufacturing, or respect for their customers, to my mind.
They should change the insides to look all space age and call it some fancy market gimmick name everybody will be pleased to be ripped off.
Or keep it the same and charge accordingly.....

Seriously, do you think this level of shoddy assembly is acceptable? - Don't you think anyone with a pair of these seeing what the insides are like would feel ripped off at any price?
That the sound quality is compromised as a result of the way it looks inside?

Ive never heard them so please can you explain to me how the design makes a bad job of the sound?

Is the design not 'audiophille' enough?
Surely you must agree that this isn't just about sound quality though? If it was, why bother covering the box in a choice of veneers? - Or providing a removable grille?
 

Macspur

Well-known member
May 3, 2010
77
0
18,540
chebby said:
Macspur said:
If I remember later, I'll post Loops concerns on the Harbeth forum, Alan Shaw will be keen to respond, as I know he takes great pride in his speakers.

Mac
I will keep checking 'Today's posts' for that. Looking forward to the discussion.

I am also of the opinion that the interior 'cosmetics' of a speaker are of secondary concern to the way it sounds.

Ok the Harbeths didn't have a Meccano set stuffed up it's ar.... err .... innards.
Love their speakers, but hate their website... just spent ages typing up a post and posted it, but came up with error message.

Mac
 

Andrewjvt

New member
Jun 18, 2014
99
1
0
Infiniteloop said:
Andrewjvt said:
Infiniteloop said:
Andrewjvt said:
Infiniteloop said:
Andrewjvt said:
Infiniteloop said:
Andrewjvt said:
Infiniteloop said:
Andrewjvt said:
The magico speakers are a rip off.

Unless speaker bracing is as expensive as a cheap sports car
You mean along with custom aluminium extrusions, beryllium tweeters, nanotube diaphragms, titanium voice coils etc, all designed and made in-house?

 
Yes
Um. Okay.
I asked the question as all these companies are charging as much as they can Not just harbeth. All of them
Of course they are. None of them are charities. But some have better design sensibilities and, how shall I put it?, a sense of self respect. 

Anyone that can charge several thousand pounds for a product that has an element in it that appears to be bound by several yards of what looks like duct tape stapled to the back of its inner wall and think it's okay, because the customer is unlikely to see it, doesnt seem to have much pride in their manufacturing, or respect for their customers, to my mind.
They should change the insides to look all space age and call it some fancy market gimmick name everybody will be pleased to be ripped off.
Or keep it the same and charge accordingly.....

Seriously, do you think this level of shoddy assembly is acceptable? - Don't you think anyone with a pair of these seeing what the insides are like would feel ripped off at any price?
That the sound quality is compromised as a result of the way it looks inside?

Ive never heard them so please can you explain to me how the design makes a bad job of the sound?

Is the design not 'audiophille' enough?
Surely you must agree that this isn't just about sound quality though? If it was, why bother covering the box in a choice of veneers? - Or providing a removable grille?
I quite like the look of them
Sound quality more important to me anyways. I have rustic taste so ultra modern speakers to me look tacky and go out of style after a year or two but old vintage to me seem timeless.
 

chebby

Well-known member
Jun 2, 2008
1,233
5
19,195
Infiniteloop said:
Seriously, do you think this level of shoddy assembly is acceptable? - Don't you think anyone with a pair of these seeing what the insides are like would feel ripped off at any price?
I'd love a pair please. I understand what that so-called 'duct tape' of yours is (and - of course - it's nothing of the sort) and I understand what it's doing there (and why) because i've studied the development of BBC monitors and their derivatives over the years. What do you expect the inside of a hand-made, thin-walled, beech battened, plywood box to look like? What did you expect panel damping or foam to look like? The crossover looks pretty tidy and well laid out compared to most.

You boast of being a product designer in another thread. Suggest you call Harbeth and offer to sort out their act if you are that good. While you are at it you can - presumably - teach them commercial ethics as well as how to build a better loudspeaker. I'm sure they need you if you are as good as you imply. (I look forward to the insides of Harbeths looking as well finished inside as out, with none of that unsightly panel damping, and costing half the price.)
 

Infiniteloop

Well-known member
Jul 23, 2010
51
5
18,545
chebby said:
Infiniteloop said:
Seriously, do you think this level of shoddy assembly is acceptable? - Don't you think anyone with a pair of these seeing what the insides are like would feel ripped off at any price?
I'd love a pair please. I understand what that so-called 'duct tape' of yours is (and - of course - it's nothing of the sort) and I understand what it's doing there (and why) because i've studied the development of BBC monitors and their derivatives over the years. What do you expect the inside of a hand-made, thin-walled, beech battened, plywood box to look like? What did you expect panel damping or foam to look like? The crossover looks pretty tidy and well laid out compared to most.

You boast of being a product designer in another thread. Suggest you call Harbeth and offer to sort out their act if you are that good. While you are at it you can - presumably - teach them commercial ethics as well as how to build a better loudspeaker. I'm sure they need you if you are as good as you imply. (I look forward to the insides of Harbeths looking as well finished inside as out, with none of that unsightly panel damping, and costing half the price.)
Chebby, many of the things you accuse me of in the above I have not done.

If you care to read the comments section of the Stereophile article you'll see that I'm not alone in thinking that the insides of that box look shoddy.

If this was my product, I would not be happy sending it out to a customer and charging the best part of four grand for it.

I guess designers have different sensibilities.
 

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