And another one bites the dust...after giving up my arcam 32, i think the roksan deserves a top end cd player, so i'm getting rid of my DAC magic-after all, the DAC upgrades your sound to the level of the Cambridge Audion £500 (assuming the transport is as good), so not quitte on a pair with the Roksan and the proac D15 i've got...
good bye magic dac...
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John Duncan
Well-known member
I am coming to the conclusion from my own tests that it's the 'transport' that has most effect, and the DACMagic just serves the purpose of creating an analogue signal from the best digital signal you can get. So what I'm saying is that it doesn't upgrade any old CD player to a £500 one, it's the lossless files that are doing that - ie the DM sounds the same as my 800 quid CD player, given the CDP's digital out, but lossless files from an Airport Express are better than the primare's transport. Does that make sense?
Sounded the same to me whether an 840C or older Denon player was connected but you have more experience with it being an owner.
regards
regards
John Duncan
Well-known member
drummerman:
Sounded the same to me whether an 840C or older Denon player was connected but you have more experience with it being an owner.
regards
Well I haven't been totally anal about it, but I think the Primare sounds better than my Pioneer DV-454 but not as good (on the whole, there are some exceptions) as the Airport Express.
I must stress that the differences aren't enormous, but a lossless feed into the 200 quid DACMagic gives *me* a better result (and a much better *value* result) than spending 800 quid on a CD player (Cyrus SE mechanism notwithstanding, haven't heard it).
Bottom line, I think that you're paying for reliable transport in any given 500+ player.
Sounded the same to me whether an 840C or older Denon player was connected but you have more experience with it being an owner.
regards
Well I haven't been totally anal about it, but I think the Primare sounds better than my Pioneer DV-454 but not as good (on the whole, there are some exceptions) as the Airport Express.
I must stress that the differences aren't enormous, but a lossless feed into the 200 quid DACMagic gives *me* a better result (and a much better *value* result) than spending 800 quid on a CD player (Cyrus SE mechanism notwithstanding, haven't heard it).
Bottom line, I think that you're paying for reliable transport in any given 500+ player.
JohnDuncan:I am coming to the conclusion from my own tests that it's the 'transport' that has most effect, and the DACMagic just serves the purpose of creating an analogue signal from the best digital signal you can get. So what I'm saying is that it doesn't upgrade any old CD player to a £500 one, it's the lossless files that are doing that - ie the DM sounds the same as my 800 quid CD player, given the CDP's digital out, but lossless files from an Airport Express are better than the primare's transport. Does that make sense?
It does to me (not that you were asking me
).... Just look at the new Cyrus line of CD players that are getting such rave reviews, despite essentially just updating their transport sections...
Airport Express using lossless tracks (that have been properly ripped using error correction etc..) will output a bit perfect digital signal to your DAC... whereas your Primare has to read the info on the fly, likely resulting in output that is not bit perfect...
It does to me (not that you were asking me
Airport Express using lossless tracks (that have been properly ripped using error correction etc..) will output a bit perfect digital signal to your DAC... whereas your Primare has to read the info on the fly, likely resulting in output that is not bit perfect...
What about a Cambridge 840 CD?
It is a very good player but also has digital inputs, so is effectively a DAC too.
It is a very good player but also has digital inputs, so is effectively a DAC too.
Eddie Pound:
What about a Cambridge 840 CD?
It is a very good player but also has digital inputs, so is effectively a DAC too.
What about it?
regards
What about a Cambridge 840 CD?
It is a very good player but also has digital inputs, so is effectively a DAC too.
What about it?
regards
John Duncan
Well-known member
Ajani:
JohnDuncan:I am coming to the conclusion from my own tests that it's the 'transport' that has most effect, and the DACMagic just serves the purpose of creating an analogue signal from the best digital signal you can get. So what I'm saying is that it doesn't upgrade any old CD player to a £500 one, it's the lossless files that are doing that - ie the DM sounds the same as my 800 quid CD player, given the CDP's digital out, but lossless files from an Airport Express are better than the primare's transport. Does that make sense?
It does to me (not that you were asking me
).... Just look at the new Cyrus line of CD players that are getting such rave reviews, despite essentially just updating their transport sections...
Airport Express using lossless tracks (that have been properly ripped using error correction etc..) will output a bit perfect digital signal to your DAC... whereas your Primare has to read the info on the fly, likely resulting in output that is not bit perfect...
Yup, precisely my point.
JohnDuncan:I am coming to the conclusion from my own tests that it's the 'transport' that has most effect, and the DACMagic just serves the purpose of creating an analogue signal from the best digital signal you can get. So what I'm saying is that it doesn't upgrade any old CD player to a £500 one, it's the lossless files that are doing that - ie the DM sounds the same as my 800 quid CD player, given the CDP's digital out, but lossless files from an Airport Express are better than the primare's transport. Does that make sense?
It does to me (not that you were asking me
Airport Express using lossless tracks (that have been properly ripped using error correction etc..) will output a bit perfect digital signal to your DAC... whereas your Primare has to read the info on the fly, likely resulting in output that is not bit perfect...
Yup, precisely my point.
drummerman:Eddie Pound:
What about a Cambridge 840 CD?
It is a very good player but also has digital inputs, so is effectively a DAC too.
What about it?
regards
A top flight CD player to match his separates.
What about a Cambridge 840 CD?
It is a very good player but also has digital inputs, so is effectively a DAC too.
What about it?
regards
A top flight CD player to match his separates.
Agree, superb player with added functionality. Perhaps a bit laid back and subtle for the Kandy K2 but I might be wrong.
regards
regards
chebby
Well-known member
So the 'perfect' CD player - by this logic - would be one that simply rips the CD losslessly - with error correction - onto some built in solid state HD (only need about 1 GB to be safe) then has the internal DAC read a bit perfect stream from it. This lossless and corrected file only hangs around until you load the next CD to play.
It would only take a couple of minutes (max) to read the CD (with the first tracks available for play in seconds) any computer grade transport could be used and no computer needed.
Such a 'hybrid' type player would have all the audible benefits of lossless files but without the necessity of ANY compression at all and without the necessity for a computer and could be very cheap because it would not need an expensive, mechanically isolated transport. Downside is a short wait whilst download and correction is happening but probably no more than the time it takes to load an LP and dust it, brush a stylus etc.
This would work in the same way as a music server but with only just enough solid state storage for one CD to be ripped/played at a time. I guess this would only appeal to audiophiles without computers who cannot afford music servers (like the Naim) but want the same performance.
It would only take a couple of minutes (max) to read the CD (with the first tracks available for play in seconds) any computer grade transport could be used and no computer needed.
Such a 'hybrid' type player would have all the audible benefits of lossless files but without the necessity of ANY compression at all and without the necessity for a computer and could be very cheap because it would not need an expensive, mechanically isolated transport. Downside is a short wait whilst download and correction is happening but probably no more than the time it takes to load an LP and dust it, brush a stylus etc.
This would work in the same way as a music server but with only just enough solid state storage for one CD to be ripped/played at a time. I guess this would only appeal to audiophiles without computers who cannot afford music servers (like the Naim) but want the same performance.
Gerrardasnails
Well-known member
drummerman:
Sounded the same to me whether an 840C or older Denon player was connected but you have more experience with it being an owner.
regards
I'm with Drummerman. I haven't done A B testing but using my Bluray player as transport gives me not far off the same results as with lossless files. I can't see that a better transport will then take it above the results from lossless files.
Sounded the same to me whether an 840C or older Denon player was connected but you have more experience with it being an owner.
regards
I'm with Drummerman. I haven't done A B testing but using my Bluray player as transport gives me not far off the same results as with lossless files. I can't see that a better transport will then take it above the results from lossless files.
John Duncan
Well-known member
chebby:So the 'perfect' CD player - by this logic - would be one that simply rips the CD losslessly - with error correction - onto some built in solid state HD (only need about 1 GB to be safe) then has the internal DAC read a bit perfect stream from it.
And that's precisely what the Naim is to my mind (though with the advantage of keeping the copy it just amde). Andrew himself admitted that in some cases it sounds better from HD than playing in real time. And that's precisely what my Mac/Airport/DACMagic are as well, just in different boxes and of different quality (subjectively).
And that's precisely what the Naim is to my mind (though with the advantage of keeping the copy it just amde). Andrew himself admitted that in some cases it sounds better from HD than playing in real time. And that's precisely what my Mac/Airport/DACMagic are as well, just in different boxes and of different quality (subjectively).
chebby
Well-known member
JohnDuncan:And that's precisely what the Naim is to my mind (though with the advantage of keeping the copy it just amde). Andrew himself admitted that in some cases it sounds better from HD than playing in real time. And that's precisely what my Mac/Airport/DACMagic are as well, just in different boxes and of different quality (subjectively).
I am just thinking aloud for an affordable device that has clear audible benefits over a standard CD player, is not as expensive as a Naim, and does not involve getting wrapped up with computers and ripping hundreds of CDs.
Due to the savings in transport quality (a laptop transport would suffice) and only needing enough internal storage for one CD at a time, then this could be a very cheap device.
I am just thinking aloud for an affordable device that has clear audible benefits over a standard CD player, is not as expensive as a Naim, and does not involve getting wrapped up with computers and ripping hundreds of CDs.
Due to the savings in transport quality (a laptop transport would suffice) and only needing enough internal storage for one CD at a time, then this could be a very cheap device.
Chebby,
This is what Meridian did from the 507 CD player onwards. A cheap CD ROM drive and a buffer.
I feel that this approach is the right one, as opposed to the over-engineered transports from Esoteric, and Cyrus' attempt.
This is what Meridian did from the 507 CD player onwards. A cheap CD ROM drive and a buffer.
I feel that this approach is the right one, as opposed to the over-engineered transports from Esoteric, and Cyrus' attempt.
John Duncan
Well-known member
chebby:JohnDuncan:And that's precisely what the Naim is to my mind (though with the advantage of keeping the copy it just amde). Andrew himself admitted that in some cases it sounds better from HD than playing in real time. And that's precisely what my Mac/Airport/DACMagic are as well, just in different boxes and of different quality (subjectively).
I am just thinking aloud for an affordable device that has clear audible benefits over a standard CD player, is not as expensive as a Naim, and does not involve getting wrapped up with computers and ripping hundreds of CDs.
Due to the savings in transport quality (a laptop transport would suffice) and only needing enough internal storage for one CD at a time, then this could be a very cheap device.
Actually - besides the Meridian, hasn't this been tried elsewhere as well? Didn't Creek put in a buffer so it was several seconds before it would start playing?
And what's more, isn't that what oversampling is all about when it comes down to it?
I am just thinking aloud for an affordable device that has clear audible benefits over a standard CD player, is not as expensive as a Naim, and does not involve getting wrapped up with computers and ripping hundreds of CDs.
Due to the savings in transport quality (a laptop transport would suffice) and only needing enough internal storage for one CD at a time, then this could be a very cheap device.
Actually - besides the Meridian, hasn't this been tried elsewhere as well? Didn't Creek put in a buffer so it was several seconds before it would start playing?
And what's more, isn't that what oversampling is all about when it comes down to it?
John Duncan
Well-known member
Creek Classic:
"to convert the signal to a usable format, the Classic CD player uses a digital buffer circuit (FPGA) that stores the signal for a short time and converts it into a suitable format for feeding to a D to A converter. This creates shock immunity from the player, so that the disc is not playing exactly in real time, but slightly delayed through the dynamic buffer."
"to convert the signal to a usable format, the Classic CD player uses a digital buffer circuit (FPGA) that stores the signal for a short time and converts it into a suitable format for feeding to a D to A converter. This creates shock immunity from the player, so that the disc is not playing exactly in real time, but slightly delayed through the dynamic buffer."
chebby:So the 'perfect' CD player - by this logic - would be one that simply rips the CD losslessly - with error correction - onto some built in solid state HD (only need about 1 GB to be safe) then has the internal DAC read a bit perfect stream from it. This lossless and corrected file only hangs around until you load the next CD to play.
It would only take a couple of minutes (max) to read the CD (with the first tracks available for play in seconds) any computer grade transport could be used and no computer needed.
Such a 'hybrid' type player would have all the audible benefits of lossless files but without the necessity of ANY compression at all and without the necessity for a computer and could be very cheap because it would not need an expensive, mechanically isolated transport. Downside is a short wait whilst download and correction is happening but probably no more than the time it takes to load an LP and dust it, brush a stylus etc.
This would work in the same way as a music server but with only just enough solid state storage for one CD to be ripped/played at a time. I guess this would only appeal to audiophiles without computers who cannot afford music servers (like the Naim) but want the same performance.
A company called PS Audio (a US audio manufacturer) is developing a transport that does exactly that... called the Perfect Wave Transport (PWT)... which is one of several components involved in their 'ultimate' music server system...
http://www.psaudio.com/
If you want details you can read the November newsletter for details on the PWT and the rest of the Ultra series... Though I think they are far more expensive than the kind of CD player you're thinking of...
A cheaper player that I believe tried to do something similar is the Rega Apollo.
It would only take a couple of minutes (max) to read the CD (with the first tracks available for play in seconds) any computer grade transport could be used and no computer needed.
Such a 'hybrid' type player would have all the audible benefits of lossless files but without the necessity of ANY compression at all and without the necessity for a computer and could be very cheap because it would not need an expensive, mechanically isolated transport. Downside is a short wait whilst download and correction is happening but probably no more than the time it takes to load an LP and dust it, brush a stylus etc.
This would work in the same way as a music server but with only just enough solid state storage for one CD to be ripped/played at a time. I guess this would only appeal to audiophiles without computers who cannot afford music servers (like the Naim) but want the same performance.
A company called PS Audio (a US audio manufacturer) is developing a transport that does exactly that... called the Perfect Wave Transport (PWT)... which is one of several components involved in their 'ultimate' music server system...
http://www.psaudio.com/
If you want details you can read the November newsletter for details on the PWT and the rest of the Ultra series... Though I think they are far more expensive than the kind of CD player you're thinking of...
A cheaper player that I believe tried to do something similar is the Rega Apollo.
John Duncan
Well-known member
I'm personally skeptical about major differences between transports, and greatly put off by the disc reading issues.
There are other little niggles like the price, and that the fascia colour doesn't match the casework.
I think computers are where it is at/going.
There are other little niggles like the price, and that the fascia colour doesn't match the casework.
I think computers are where it is at/going.
chebby
Well-known member
Clare Newsome:Just buy one of the Cyrus SEs already
No. My Computer with iTunes loads all of my CDs not just 90 percent
No. My Computer with iTunes loads all of my CDs not just 90 percent
John Duncan
Well-known member
chebby:Clare Newsome:Just buy one of the Cyrus SEs already
No. My Computer with iTunes loads all of my CDs not just 90 percent
Touch‚, Ch‚bi
No. My Computer with iTunes loads all of my CDs not just 90 percent
Touch‚, Ch‚bi
But my Cyrus - which has played more like 99.9 percent of discs - doesn't ever crash, or get corrupted, or die and take all the data with it....
(I am, of course, playing devil's advocate* - I use iTunes/Airport Express/DAC at home as well).
* Great album, you must try it.
(I am, of course, playing devil's advocate* - I use iTunes/Airport Express/DAC at home as well).
* Great album, you must try it.
Charlie Jefferson
Well-known member
As relayed on another thread, I've got to chip in here with a vote for Mac/AE/DAC over CDP/DAC or CDP alone.
My ears, whilst not exactly being empirical data, tell me it's the former over the latter two combos on nearly all occasions.
Mac+Airport X+Chord DAC eclipses Arcam 92+Chord DAC. Often by some margin in terms of detail retrieval and soundstaging. I'm hearing things I've never heard before. . .
My ears, whilst not exactly being empirical data, tell me it's the former over the latter two combos on nearly all occasions.
Mac+Airport X+Chord DAC eclipses Arcam 92+Chord DAC. Often by some margin in terms of detail retrieval and soundstaging. I'm hearing things I've never heard before. . .
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