Focal Scalas or Diablos with subs?

[Neuphonix]

We did the room testing yesterday. What a great process. Highly recommend people get it done if possible. It was great seeing/hearing in real time how the system work & how the room interacts or influences things.

We ran out of time at the end so I don't have print outs of all the results but the most noticeable points were:

1) Left channel which is in the corner had massive bass loading compared to the right which is on the open side of the room. I hadn't had the chance to listen to left/ right separately, it was almost like listening to two differnt speakers.

2) The one sub which is next to the right channel did help to balance things off. But if I did go down the two sub route, each would be set-up very differently. ie. left quite low / right quite high.

3) The Diablos do drop away significantly (10dB) at around 70hz. The sub lifts thing back up again around 40hz, but I couldn't smooth the cross over betwwen 50 & 40 too well. In fairness I didn't spend alot of time on this, but the subs control options seem to work well.

4) There was a very sharp drop in a narrow range at 150hz, which I think is room related.

Will post more details soon. It has defintely re-inforced the need to look at my room as a part of my overall system, perhaps even the most important part.

Early thoughts are that while the Scalas will offer more, not sure how they will respond to the limited placement options. They do offer a degree of adjustment which could help to compensate. A home demo is an absolute must.

 

[CnoEvil]

Yes, it is worth remembering that there is a "tailoring" element to the Scalas (through the crossovers, I think).

You also seem to be getting sound knowledgeable advice on Audiogon.....even if they don't quite realize just how powerful 35W can sound. :twisted:

 

[Neuphonix]

Hi all,

just thought that I would let all my friendly enablers know that I have reached decision & put it into action.

I had to put the Scala idea away, as much as I did love them the money & room size just seemed to big an issue. Budget could probably have been made to stretch but I can't magically move walls around. The wife had also started to bring up her new kitchen again & as 2012 has been a year of personal hi-fi indulgence it seems fair to provide her with a nice environment in which to cook me dinner!!! >) (while I put my feet up in the cofee table & listen to music!!!)

To make up for this compromise I have done the following:

1) Traded in the 10" sub & bought two 12" ones instead: http://www.jlaudio.com/f112-satin-home-audio-fathom-powered-subwoofers-96124

2) Orderd a Thor PS-10 power station: http://thortechnologies.com.au/

3) Having an RTI remote control system installed which will control everything via the iPad, Alex, check this out , very cool: http://www.rticorp.com/default.aspx

4) Will have some custom plinth/stands made to sit the subs & diablos on, whilst still having them isolated from each other.

5) Look at some sort of room treatments. Corner traps are a definite & I may build a partition to corner load the right speaker similar to the left, also a door on the kitchen entrance to further enclose the right hand side of my room.

& then that will be it for quite some time to come. :hand:

In the end as much as the Scalas are appealing if i can do all this other stuff for less it just seems the wiser way to go. My old man told me I was mad for even considering them, & after doing the room testing with him & seeing the effect this had on the sound I had to listen to his reasoning. Why spend so much on a set of speakers if your room only allows you to get say 75% out of them? Especially given that my current set-up is already great.

Will still be a fair bit of fiddlng around with the sub set-up I'm sure, but that's all part of the fun.

Thanks for eveyone's input.

Ben, who know's if I win the lottery your suggestion may yet come true.

Helmut, sorry to be so 'silly"!!

ID, you can put the eggs away now mate

:cheers:

 

[acalex]

I think this is a very wise choice... compliments! I will check this RTI stuff as it seems very interesting indeed

 

[Neuphonix]

yes it works really well, you can use it for light/air-con/security as well if you wanted to.

At the moment I just use one of the Logitech harmony remotes which is OK.

But the fact that this RTI gear works over your netwok is much better, everything is much more imediate & you don't have to sit there with your remote pointed at the system for 20-30 seconds while it tries to send signals to all the vaious devices. I'm also having dramas trying to get the Logitech reomte to work with the Primo, for some reason when I have the trigger to the 35p installed it stops working?

Plug in the remote processing unit (depends on how many components you want to control), run the little iR emmitters & stick them onto the unit's IR receiver. You have to buy a license to use the system on your iPad & then a programmer comes and does the final set-up. I'd say that you could manage this part yourself, but they don't sell the software to the general public only authorised installers.

Guess you just have to plan out exactly what functions you want before he comes so it can be done in one hit. Also do you want it only on one ipad or your wife's as well?

 

[CnoEvil]

These things have to be worked through in an objective manner.....though it will only take the dealer to change his mind and throw in a ridiculous deal, to weaken your resolve. :twisted:

If you are prepared to put the work in (which you are), you should get a pleasing result with what you're doing.

If you don't mind the rather "agricultural" look....Auralex Grammas / Sub Dudes are effective.,,,though you can make them look a lot better, if you put them on Granite Worktop savers, and trim them round with matt black painted wood trim....as described here with photos: http://www.whathifi.com/forum/your-system/bens-hifi?page=2

 

[Neuphonix]

These things have to be worked through in an objective manner.....though it will only take the dealer to change his mind and throw in a ridiculous deal, to weaken your resolve. :twisted:

If you are prepared to put the work in (which you are), you should get a pleasing result with what you're doing.

If you don't mind the rather "agricultural" look....Auralex Grammas / Sub Dudes are effective.,,,though you can make them look a lot better, if you put them on Granite Worktop savers, and trim them round with matt black painted wood trim....as described here with photos: http://www.whathifi.com/forum/your-system/bens-hifi?page=2

I'm thinking granite base plinth sitting on isolation spikes / sub on spikes sitting on base plinth / three or four solid uprights / matching grainte top plinth / Diablos sitting on top plinths with isolation spikes.

I want them to as much as possible blend in with the rest of my rack / be solid & heavy / for the overall height to be the same as the Diablos on stands / to isolate the subs from the Diablos to minimise any distortion cause by vibration.

I'm happy to spend some money on them to achieve the look & function that I'm after.

 

[CnoEvil]

I'm thinking granite base plinth sitting on isolation spikes / sub on spikes sitting on base plinth / three or four solid uprights / matching grainte top plinth / Diablos sitting on top plinths with isolation spikes.

I want them to as much as possible blend in with the rest of my rack / be solid & heavy / for the overall height to be the same as the Diablos on stands / to isolate the subs from the Diablos to minimise any distortion cause by vibration.

I'm happy to spend some money on them to achieve the look & function that I'm after.

Sounds like a good job to me.

 

[Helmut80]

damn, 2.5k for a sub! Mission accomplished. >)

 

[CnoEvil]

damn, 2.5k for a sub! Mission accomplished. >)

Two Fathom F112s are enough to trigger an earthquake! :twisted:

 

[CnoEvil]

Here are some interesting reviews, especially of the Scalas: http://www.audiodrom.cz/en-version.html#interconnects

There is also a comprehensive Power Cable review called "Power Up"

 

[Neuphonix]

damn, 2.5k for a sub! Mission accomplished. >)

Times 2, bit silly isn't it!! Consider it a Christmas present to my audio enablers! :twisted:

I do remember over on the DS thread you said "I don't think you can ever have enough bottom end". We'll soon find out

Now comes the tricky part, setting them up so the integrate as well as possible. I found this article which goes into a bit of depth:

http://www.soundoctor.com/whitepapers/subs.htm

I'm not going to have much/any flexibility as to where I can place them because of room & WAF reasons.

Plan to try one of these: http://www.behringer.com/ES/Products/CX3400.aspx

It will need some extras leads & yes there are a few questions about placing another item in the pathway, but its fun to experiment.

Bryston make a much more expensive one ( http://www.bryston.com/products/other/10B-SUB.html ) but if I was going to go there I might as well have bought the Scalas. If the cheaper Behringer makes a significant difference & I can find the Bryston at a good price second hand we'll see. They seem to pop up on eBay on the states, just have to find out what the cost is to have the voltage changed from 110 to 240.

At the moment I'm putting together a small/cheap room analysing kit (same as my Dad used). So this should help to actually give some sort of measurement when changing various aspects, rather than solely relying on my ears. Will keep you posted.

 

[CnoEvil]

oke: :quest:

 

[Neuphonix]

Hi mate.

happy New Year! :cheers:

I picked up the second F112 yesterday & unpacked it but haven't plugged it in yet. It certainly is bigger than the F110! :twisted:

We're still house sitting but are heading home today. So there will be some re-arranging of system happening over the next day or so.

As far as positioning goes at this stage I have decided to alter my current rack so that both subs will be built into the rack (placed on the ground) beneath the centre speaker. They will be around 500mm inside of each Diablo. I felt that this was the best compromise in terms of aethetics & keeping the subs away from corners.

Managed to pick up a second hand Bryston 10B-sub active crossover through the classifieds on Audiogon. Now just have to arrange for the voltage conversion & some extra XLR leads when it arrives.

 

[CnoEvil]

Correctly set up, it will be interesting to see how close you think it might get to the Scalas.....80-85% would be exceptional!

 

[Neuphonix]

Correctly set up, it will be interesting to see how close you think it might get to the Scalas.....80-85% would be exceptional!

The only issue with attempting to make some sort of quantifiable judgement like that will be I MUST NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES GO TO THAT SHOP & LISTEN TO THE SCALAS AGAIN. So it will be based on some inflated memory in this flawed thing I call a brain!

Obviously hard to say until everything is bedded down & dialed in but I'd tend to think that the system will have more bottom end than the Scalas but less midrange. Warmer but not as tight.

Did a quick set-up of the f112, moved the f110 around & pop it stops working again. Sigh, I was really hoping that 2012 was the year of damm intermitant electrical faults, but it would appear that they might be slipping into 2013 already. Fingers crossed, touch wood etc.

& some pissed fool crashed in to the back of my car on the way home yesterday morning, while I'm sitting stationary at a set of traffic lights no less!!! :O

 

[Neuphonix]

PS: check out these custom granite plinths I found on eBay in the UK. Not the cheapest & I'd say to heavy to ship over here, but not bad.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/rsacoustics/m.html?item=170960328389&pt=UK_Sound_Vision_Speaker_Parts&hash=item27ce0796c5&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2562

 

[CnoEvil]

PS: check out these custom granite plinths I found on eBay in the UK. Not the cheapest & I'd say to heavy to ship over here, but not bad.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/rsacoustics/m.html?item=170960328389&pt=UK_Sound_Vision_Speaker_Parts&hash=item27ce0796c5&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2562

This is the sort of thing I use: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/HIGH-QUALITY-Granite-Chopping-board-Work-Top-Saver-/280725982197#vi-content

You can find them in most big Supermarkets.

 

[Neuphonix]

Finally got my crossover back from the repair guy, apparently it had a loose connection. At least he didn't charge me.

So have it all set up & must say it is impressive

The Diablos seem to respond well having 80hz and below removed. Could be my mind but they seem to enjoy being able to focus on what they are good at, mids/highs. They just seem to have more sparkle to them?

The filters on the subs are set at 80Hz / 12dB slope & this is reflected on the cross over, so far this seems to work well. Bass is well controlled & is almost seamless. I've still got some fiddling to do with getting the phase right & level matching which should improve integration further.

Not sure if anyone saw my post over on Macs thread about the soon to be realesed JL Audio crossover? Looks interesting, should be out in the next month or so.

 

[Macspur]

Good, glad you're getting there Neuphonix.

On the subject of Focal... It won't be for a good while, but do like to plan ahead... Since acquiring the Accuphase, I have heard Focal are supposed to be an even better match than Harbeth.

Now as you already know about my acoustically challenged room, but to remind, it's approx 13ft long and 7.6ft wide... would you have any idea which model would be the best fit? are they all front or rear ported?

Mac

 

[Neuphonix]

Good, glad you're getting there Neuphonix.

On the subject of Focal... It won't be for a good while, but do like to plan ahead... Since acquiring the Accuphase, I have heard Focal are supposed to be an even better match than Harbeth.

Now as you already know about my acoustically challenged room, but to remind, it's approx 13ft long and 7.6ft wide... would you have any idea which model would be the best fit? are they all front or rear ported?

Mac

hi Mac,

Were you thinking of floorstanders or stand mounts? I guess for a room that size stand mounts would be the way to go?

When I was in the process of buying my Diablos I initially went in to look at the Electra 1008Be stand mounts I had read good things. Unfortunately they were out of the shop at the time so I never got the chance to hear them. They have the Berylium tweeter like the Diablos, metal tweeters might not be everyone's cup of tea but I'd say that this one would be one of the best available. I can't find anything specific, but the picture on the Focal website seems to show that they are rear ported so might not be perfect for your room.

Haven't heard the Chorus range, but they are all front ported so might work a little better in a corner.

You'd have to wonder if either would give you the same bass as your Harbeths? Perhaps more detail though?

 

[Macspur]

Good, glad you're getting there Neuphonix.

On the subject of Focal... It won't be for a good while, but do like to plan ahead... Since acquiring the Accuphase, I have heard Focal are supposed to be an even better match than Harbeth.

Now as you already know about my acoustically challenged room, but to remind, it's approx 13ft long and 7.6ft wide... would you have any idea which model would be the best fit? are they all front or rear ported?

Mac

hi Mac,

Were you thinking of floorstanders or stand mounts? I guess for a room that size stand mounts would be the way to go?

When I was in the process of buying my Diablos I initially went in to look at the Electra 1008Be stand mounts I had read good things. Unfortunately they were out of the shop at the time so I never got the chance to hear them. They have the Berylium tweeter like the Diablos, metal tweeters might not be everyone's cup of tea but I'd say that this one would be one of the best available. I can't find anything specific, but the picture on the Focal website seems to show that they are rear ported so might not be perfect for your room.

Haven't heard the Chorus range, but they are all front ported so might work a little better in a corner.

You'd have to wonder if either would give you the same bass as your Harbeths? Perhaps more detail though?

Thanks for the response Neuphonix.

Any change I do make will have a hard act to follow after Harbeth, but I think probably stand mounts, although I have had floor standers in here before... ProAc studio130, quite a slim one and ATC SCM40 that had a very flat response.

The Electra range would probably be the ones I try when the time comes... think Iceman has the 1028?

Mac

 

[Neuphonix]

[/quote]

Thanks for the response Neuphonix.

Any change I do make will have a hard act to follow after Harbeth, but I think probably stand mounts, although I have had floor standers in here before... ProAc studio130, quite a slim one and ATC SCM40 that had a very flat response.

The Electra range would probably be the ones I try when the time comes... think Iceman has the 1028?

Mac

[/quote]

I listened to the Focal Electra 1038Be and was impressed, much more scale and bigger sound than the Diablos. But they were nowhere near as refined, slight boxiness.

At the time I was looking at moving away from big floor standing speakers because of the size of my room. But as you can see by this thread I do miss the bottom end.

If you were looking at pushing the budget that far then you'd have to at least compare the Diablos. They can be had for the same price with-out the stands & are front ported. The only real downside that I have found so far is how brutally reavealing they are, very unforgiving. When they sing they are right up there with the best, but can render some music unlistenable. I'm sure that part of this is me paying more attention as I Iearn to listen, as well as the Akurate DS being quite revealing as well.

Iceman might be able to confirm, I'm pretty sure the 1028 & 1038 are bottom ported, so should be OK for your room, but perhaps a little large?

 

[iceman16]

Hi Mac and Neuphonix

Before I bought the 1028be, I have own a couple of floorstanders(B&W 703s/ ATC 40s) and demoed others at home and at my local dealer. But at that time Im still using Naims(cdx2,202,250,hicap,napsc). The big advantage of the 1028 is they're fairly easy to drive and works very well with all sorts of music but needs plenty of room. They have 2 ports, one at the back and between the "penguin legs" at the bottom.

Mac, If you compare the 1028be with Harbeths there's a VERY different in presentation. Harbeths are great speakers with smooth, refined and a little laid back but a mid and vocal to die for IMO. The 1028s sounds more forward, upfront and also very revealing. If not partnered very well on amps,source and cabling they may sound a little bright. The imaging and dynamics is superb and very detailed. They may work very well with your system but my only concern is the size of your room. If you can give them at least 2 ft from the backwall and 1 ft on the side they would perform very well.

 

[iceman16]

Just forgot to mention..the 1028be sounds big I mean really big for their size with plenty of bass. So no need for an extra sub.