First a 4k fuse now this....

[jjbomber]

Sounds like you need to try an AVID turntable.

At Audio Show Deluxe in March, a visitor brought a record into the room which he uses to assess equipment.

He was obviously an AVID listener! They're £30,000 as well though for their flagship products.

 

[Nico69]

What is remarkable is that 60 year old LPs are better archives than the tapes they were made from, as they’ve mostly turned to mush, or been burned in a storage fire.

I rest my case your Honour

Voyager - The Golden Record

voyager.jpl.nasa.gov

Bound to last thousands of years and still playable after that time with instructions on how to do so.

 

[davidf]

He was obviously an AVID listener! They're £30,000 as well though for their flagship products.

But even at £1500 they still produce the same presentation. More for those who are looking for accuracy rather than the generally associated negative aspects of vinyl.

 

[davidf]

I have a streaming amp, which sounds great, now I've shoved the foam bungs into my QA3030i speakers.

I don't see the point of CD now, never mind LPs. Average sound quality, with surface noise and they are huge and totally impractical.

There is literally nothing that could convince me to start investing in this 70 year old format.

I don’t see the point of TikTok, but it still exists, and will continue to regardless of how much I bang on about it.

 

[Oxfordian]

There is literally nothing that could convince me to start investing in this 70 year old format.

There is no way on earth that I would encourage anyone to buy into vinyl if they haven't started collecting already, but when I am in town and browsing in the two record stores I frequent the number of young people buying vinyl is astonishing.

These people cannot have a collection built up over many years so must be starting from scratch or raiding the charity shops for vinyl, chatting to them they are so enthusiastic about the medium, in some ways similar to how I felt when I bought my first album back in the 70's. If this momentum continues then that's great for the HiFi industry.

You clearly have an affinity for the streaming medium and what you can get out of it which is fine by me, albeit its not my first choice for listening, but hey ho we're all different.

 

[plastic penguin]

And the money to buy that turntable !

Absolutely. It is the likes of Brian May and other Rock stars who would be happy to splash that sort of money.

 

[Symples]

Before we dismiss the price of this unit. I think we would need to know a little more about it.
For example. Materials used, how much manual labour went in to it's construction, how rare?

A quick glance on the .net shows plinths from around £400 -£2000.

Now I bought my CD player second hand for £775. A non hifi person questioned such an "outrageous" price and questioned whether of not it was better than a "normal" CD and what made it special?

Now some may question the cost, but I thought that it was a bargain. I must have as I bought it.

The thing I am trying to get is that it is all relative. The turntable could well be hand built by a master carpenter, who only makes three of these a year.

Now that alone would increase the cost
.
I've watched a video on building of the legacy range on Tannoy loudspeakers (I want one) and I can see why they are so expensive.

I want a pair of Legacy Ardens

View: https://youtu.be/bysQ74scO3s


PS regarding watches,,, My Tissot is a windup (automatic)
PPS. I think the price is excessive to be honest

 

[Gray]

Before we dismiss the price of this unit.....

Too late, most people have dismissed it 👍

 

[podknocker]

Before we dismiss the price of this unit. I think we would need to know a little more about it.
For example. Materials used, how much manual labour went in to it's construction, how rare?

A quick glance on the .net shows plinths from around £400 -£2000.

Now I bought my CD player second hand for £775. A non hifi person questioned such an "outrageous" price and questioned whether of not it was better than a "normal" CD and what made it special?

Now some may question the cost, but I thought that it was a bargain. I must have as I bought it.

The thing I am trying to get is that it is all relative. The turntable could well be hand built by a master carpenter, who only makes three of these a year.

Now that alone would increase the cost
.
I've watched a video on building of the legacy range on Tannoy loudspeakers (I want one) and I can see why they are so expensive.

I want a pair of Legacy Ardens

View: https://youtu.be/bysQ74scO3s


PS regarding watches,,, My Tissot is a winduo (automatic)
PPS. I think the price is excessive to be honest

Again, expensive materials and labour, fancy aesthetics and elaborate construction, will not improve sound quality. Having shiny wood and gold and other bling, won't make it sound better. If you had a chair, made from plastic and it was the perfect shape for your backside and the shape and contours and design couldn't be improved, why would you have a chair made from expensive woods or gold, that cost 50 times more to produce? It's not adding anything to the chair/backside experience. The technology required to make the 'best' sounding turntable, would cost £500 in my opinion. Motors, belts, plinth, arm, cartridge etc. If a turntable costs more than £500 then the money is going on aesthetics and design and expensive materials which don't affect the technical performance of the device. It's bling and nonsense. It's the same as buying a rare £100,000 watch, made from gold, with expensive, bespoke frills that won't keep the time any better than a durable, light and accurate £10 Casio. Great time keeping and sound quality can be found in very simple and good value devices. Spending more won't give you a device that's better doing the job it's designed for, it just gives people with more money something to feel smug about.

 

[plastic penguin]

Again, expensive materials and labour, fancy aesthetics and elaborate construction, will not improve sound quality. Having shiny wood and gold and other bling, won't make it sound better. If you had a chair, made from plastic and it was the perfect shape for your backside and the shape and contours and design couldn't be improved, why would you have a chair made from expensive woods or gold, that cost 50 times more to produce? It's not adding anything to the chair/backside experience. The technology required to make the 'best' sounding turntable, would cost £500 in my opinion. Motors, belts, plinth, arm, cartridge etc. If a turntable costs more than £500 then the money is going on aesthetics and design and expensive materials which don't affect the technical performance of the device. It's bling and nonsense. It's the same as buying a rare £100,000 watch, made from gold, with expensive, bespoke frills that won't keep the time any better than a durable, light and accurate £10 Casio. Great time keeping and sound quality can be found in very simple and good value devices. Spending more won't give you a device that's better doing the job it's designed for, it just gives people with more money something to feel smug about.

Please Pod, can you stop slagging off the virtues of vinyl? A lot of people, incl myself, love what vinyl gives you.

For some reason you seem to have turned this into a digital vs vinyl, which it ain't.

If you can't make a constructive post, look at other threads to vent your ego.

 

[Oxfordian]

Please Pod, can you stop slagging off the virtues of vinyl? A lot of people, incl myself, love what vinyl gives you.

For some reason you seem to have turned this into a digital vs vinyl, which it ain't.

If you can't make a constructive post, look at other threads to vent your ego.

+1 on this statement

 

[podknocker]

I thought this thread was to highlight the stupid cost of fuses, turntables and other overpriced nonsense. I'm simply confirming this turntable is overpriced nonsense and explaining why.

Why would you buy a thing like this, just because you love bits of wood and gimmicks?

Some people are trying to justify the cost, but fail to realise its construction is in no way contributing to its sound quality, something which should be the main reason we're all here and not to obsess over shiny stuff.

Expensive materials, carpentry and labour costs are not going to make this sound better.

Perhaps some people should not be on this HIFI forum and should be looking at woodworking sites, if that's their passion.

 

[abacus]

I thought this thread was to highlight the stupid cost of fuses, turntables and other overpriced nonsense. I'm simply confirming this turntable is overpriced nonsense and explaining why.

Why would you buy a thing like this, just because you love bits of wood and gimmicks?

Some people are trying to justify the cost, but fail to realise its construction is in no way contributing to its sound quality, something which should be the main reason we're all here and not to obsess over shiny stuff.

Expensive materials, carpentry and labour costs are not going to make this sound better.

Perhaps some people should not be on this HIFI forum and should be looking at woodworking sites, if that's their passion.

Turntables are mechanical not electronic, therefore build quality and materials make a big difference, and unfortunately the better the materials used combined with the extra precision required does not come cheap.
I can understand your confusion as you have obviously never worked in engineering and basing your experiences on electronics, however comparing the 2 is like comparing apples and oranges.
As to whether the turntable shown is worth it or not is down to the individual.

Bill

 

[podknocker]

I thought turntables were mechanical and electronic and if all these parts work perfectly, why do they need to be sat in a large, expensive piece of wood, with a shiny finish?

There are some plastic/acrylic turntables, with minimal decorative construction and I bet they cost less than £500 and sound as good.

 

[Al ears]

I thought turntables were mechanical and electronic and if all these parts work perfectly, why do they need to be sat in a large, expensive piece of wood, with a shiny finish?

There are some plastic/acrylic turntables, with minimal decorative construction and I bet they cost less than £500 and sound as good.

I'm glad I am not a betting man.....

 

[Symples]

Again, expensive materials and labour, fancy aesthetics and elaborate construction, will not improve sound quality. Having shiny wood and gold and other bling, won't make it sound better. If you had a chair, made from plastic and it was the perfect shape for your backside and the shape and contours and design couldn't be improved, why would you have a chair made from expensive woods or gold, that cost 50 times more to produce?

But that's precisely it. There are people who desire and can afford a a chair made of gold. I would agree that it would not be more comfortable. But hey... it's made of gold and rare

Now I have three watches (and only two arms) Citizen Eco, Tissot (automatic) and a Roamer (automatic)
None of these would be more accurate than a £10 Casio, but I know which I would prefer every time. (Clue... it's not the Casio)

Many many years ago. I saw a Nokia phone (remember them?) in a jewellers. It was gold plated and cost £3500. An outrageous price now and around 20 years ago, outrageous then. But it's for sale and people would have bought it.

Now would it perform better than a normal non gold plated one? Of course not. But to some people, it would be most desirable. Due to its cost and rarity.

I would agree that fancy materials do not necessarily attribute to better sound. But sometimes they do. Fancy materials can make a product look better. (design is important for some)

You imply that a cheap (relatively) turntable sounds as good as a high end. Are you saying that a £500 turntable sounds as good as a £25K Linn Sondek LP12 Klimax + cartridge? Have you auditioned both?

Let's not dismiss high end gear because it it expensive.

Would I buy this turntable if I could afford it? No... I think it's ugly. I'm not particularly impressed with the looks of the Linn Sondek either.

I have spent well over around £1700 on my turntable. Have I wasted £1200? Perhaps I should simply have bought a Bush or Amstrad

 

[Gray]

Turntables are mechanical not electronic, therefore build quality and materials make a big difference

Of course the materials dictate the sound.
But, I think in this particular case, looks may be 'benefitting' more than sound from the materials.
Some may think the plinth looks good for example.
But I doubt that the materials here make this a better turntable than much cheaper alternatives.

Bottom line must be, if you want the best sounding turntable, this sort of money could (almost certainly) buy you better. Once again therefore, for its main purpose this TT can only be regarded as hideously overpriced.

PS: although my value opinion is based solely on its potential sound quality - I don't even think it looks especially good (but beauty is in the eye if the beholder of course).

 

[plastic penguin]

I thought this thread was to highlight the stupid cost of fuses, turntables and other overpriced nonsense. I'm simply confirming this turntable is overpriced nonsense and explaining why.

Why would you buy a thing like this, just because you love bits of wood and gimmicks?

Some people are trying to justify the cost, but fail to realise its construction is in no way contributing to its sound quality, something which should be the main reason we're all here and not to obsess over shiny stuff.

Expensive materials, carpentry and labour costs are not going to make this sound better.

Perhaps some people should not be on this HIFI forum and should be looking at woodworking sites, if that's their passion.

No, nothing to do with fuses, clearly you don't understand the irony of over inflated components on a forum. I used the title of "first a 4k fuse, now this..." just to make it a little more interesting. This thread in particular is purely about silly priced 70-year-old turntable (first released in 1954 according to the tinternet). That's why I placed in this sub-forum.

 

[Gray]

Perhaps I should simply have bought a Bush or Amstrad

If nothing else, you could be sure of their materials being an accurate reflection of the asking price.

 

[plastic penguin]

Not really sure who the dealer are trying to target. The average person will snigger at the price and claim it must be a wind-up

 

[Oxfordian]

I thought turntables were mechanical and electronic and if all these parts work perfectly, why do they need to be sat in a large, expensive piece of wood, with a shiny finish?

There are some plastic/acrylic turntables, with minimal decorative construction and I bet they cost less than £500 and sound as good.

Got some examples where these sub £500 set ups are better than a set up costing £2k or £20K?

I would also point out that some of us like to have kit that can be blended in with existing furniture and some may prefer to make a statement hence choice. The same applies to all manner of consumer goods, there are base, mid range and then top end models, all with different specifications, the buyer can choose what suits their needs and budget best.

It is up to the individual to determine what it is that they want to spend their money on, if a member on this forum wants to spend their money on the Garrard then who am I to determine if the money was well spent or not, I can think they are bonkers but in the end it is their choice.

 

[davidf]

Again, expensive materials and labour, fancy aesthetics and elaborate construction, will not improve sound quality. Having shiny wood and gold and other bling, won't make it sound better. If you had a chair, made from plastic and it was the perfect shape for your backside and the shape and contours and design couldn't be improved, why would you have a chair made from expensive woods or gold, that cost 50 times more to produce? It's not adding anything to the chair/backside experience. The technology required to make the 'best' sounding turntable, would cost £500 in my opinion. Motors, belts, plinth, arm, cartridge etc. If a turntable costs more than £500 then the money is going on aesthetics and design and expensive materials which don't affect the technical performance of the device. It's bling and nonsense. It's the same as buying a rare £100,000 watch, made from gold, with expensive, bespoke frills that won't keep the time any better than a durable, light and accurate £10 Casio. Great time keeping and sound quality can be found in very simple and good value devices. Spending more won't give you a device that's better doing the job it's designed for, it just gives people with more money something to feel smug about.

Personally, I wouldn’t buy a deck under £500. I wouldn’t even buy one under £1,000. That’s not me being snobby, that’s me knowing what I can get above and below that price. A deck at £2-3,000 is a complete.y different world to a £500 deck.

Anything connected to the turntable’s platter in any way is going to affect the sound in one way or another, so what material a manufacturer chooses to use as a plinth, and how they implement it, is important. A heavy chassis dampens vibrations, a lightweight one won’t. If the fancy plinth is completely isolated from the actual workings, then you’re correct, it wont have any bearing on the overall sound, other than to anchor the whole deck firmly.

While a watch and a turntable are both mechanical, the outer shell of the watch has no part to play other than look fancy. It’s why people buy ridiculously expensive timepieces - they’re making a statement. Their house shows everyone in their street how successful they are. On the road, their car shows how successful they are. And when they’re socialising, a watch (and clothing) shows how successful they are. I could have a £30,000 turntable at home that doesn’t work, but my photos of it on social media would make audiophiles drool.

You’d be better off comparing turntables to the cars. At least with a car, there’s an element of performance. You can put fancy bodywork (consider kit cars) on a Ford Cortina, but it’s still a Ford Cortina, with the performance of Ford Cortina. What doesn’t impress people is driving around in a Ford Cortina shell placed on a Lamborghini (I know it’s physically impossible), other than getting some looks from those who like vintage cars - and those wondering why the hell a Ford Cortina sounds like that. One will impress with performance, one will impress visually. Although, the one that impresses with performance will still be held back by the lack of aerodynamics of a heavyweight Ford Cortina body. Anyway, rambling.

A chair is essentially a passive item. It’s not doing anything other than supporting you. Levels of comfort will obviously vary, and that’s generally what you pay for. A turntable isn’t a passive item. It is reading and making sense of the delicate groove running through a piece of plastic. How vinyl can sound as good as it does is beyond me, every time I think about it it’s just mindblowing. If you imagine you’re really tiny and follow the path of the signal from the groove through to speakers, and think of how archaic that process is, it’s bonkers that we haven’t come up with something that completely blows it away. And even if we did, engineers would likely not use it to its fullest potential anyway. Until albums are produced correctly, it’s pointless coming up with something better.

 

[Friesiansam]

Anything connected to the turntable’s platter in any way is going to affect the sound in one way or another, so what material a manufacturer chooses to use as a plinth, and how they implement it, is important. A heavy chassis dampens vibrations, a lightweight one won’t. If the fancy plinth is completely isolated from the actual workings, then you’re correct, it wont have any bearing on the overall sound, other than to anchor the whole deck firmly.

Rega’s engineers might take issue with regard to the need for a heavy plinth.

 

[jjbomber]

What doesn’t impress people is driving around in a Ford Cortina shell placed on a Lamborghini (I know it’s physically impossible),

The boss of Robertsons had a Citroen shooting brake with a Ferrari engine. His favourite hobby was burning off boy racers at traffic lights.

 

[davidf]

Rega’s engineers might take issue with regard to the need for a heavy plinth.

They’re welcome too, although I’m not challenging anybody. Everyone wants to do something different, everyone wants to be different. How many turntable manufacturers use lightweight plinths? (Outside of budget necessity). A piece of extremely lightweight carbon isn’t going to absorb anything, whereas a heavy mass of say, aluminium, will. Why did Bowers & Wilkins moved away from aluminium on their 800 series speaker cabinets/enclosures for some material they said was better, based on their measurements at the time (I can’t remember what it was), but moved back to aluminium when their improved measuring procedures (Finite Element Analysis) found that aluminium was actually stiffer, more consistent, and helped dampen vibration better. Celestion and Wharfedale experimented with lightweight cabinets in the past, but none of them lasted. In fact, after the lightweight Celestion cabinets came the Kingston model, which used a stone-like manufactured material. That only didn’t last because of the cost involved. Magico and AVID use huge amounts of aluminium in their loudspeakers, to produce a strong, rigid frame and cabinet.

Look at loudspeakers and turntables (mechanical devices) and you’ll find higher mass improves the product. Which is why they’re all built that way, even if some use carbon elements in their construction. Are there any £20,000 lightweight turntables?