Fearing to tread into this again but....

[Al ears]

Y̶o̶u̶r̶ ̶s̶y̶s̶t̶e̶m̶ ̶i̶s̶n̶'̶t̶ ̶r̶e̶s̶o̶l̶v̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶e̶n̶o̶u̶g̶h̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶s̶h̶o̶w̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶t̶r̶u̶e̶ ̶p̶o̶t̶e̶n̶t̶i̶a̶l̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶t̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶b̶r̶i̶l̶l̶i̶a̶n̶t̶ ̶w̶i̶r̶e̶.̶

Your skepticism makes your hearing null the differences. It's the objectivist placebo effect™.

Where can I buy some objectivist placebo effect™ ?

Russ Andrews? ;-)

 

[Al ears]

...moving on sharply from the 19th century, this field of study is now known as 'transmission line theory'

<Snip>

The good news for HiFi enthusiasts is that transmission line effects only become significant when the length of the cable is comparable to the wavelength of the signal. If my back of the envelope maths is up to it, a 20kHz signal has a 15km wavelength. You would need a very big house to have to worry about this.

Didn't know that. Explains why a 4000 km cable has problems and a 6 foot one doesn't.

As far as "lumping" the values into one, I think it's more analagous to, say, calculating flow in a gas pipeline. You could lump all the resistance to flow at one end, but gas properties change with pressures and temperatures, do you have to divvy up the pipeline into lots of little segments and calculate the properties at the start and end of each segment, then calcuate the pressure and temperature changes, then recalculate the gas properties, then go onto the next segment.....

Even ignoring transmission line effects, the basic lumped parameter model of a cable can't be viewed in isolation - you have to consider the circuit it is being used in. A usual amp->cable->speaker circuit has a very low source impedance (the amp) and a very low sink impedance (the speaker). A bit of very basic ohms law indicates that for a typical home speaker set up with typical speaker cable, the capacitance and inductance of the cable can be ignored - the only parameter that makes any difference is resistance.

Agreed, maybe, not sure 'cos like I said I'm not an elektricual injunear. Also on the effects of the cable to amp and cable to speaker connections, often overlooked IMHO.

Resistance is a function of cable thickness, and low resistance is good, so try to use short thick cables - and that is all there is to speaker cables.

So why don't straightened out coathangers work well? Or is it a case of the ones from the high street dry cleaners don't work as well as those from Harrods or Audioquest, Chord, etc. or that Russ Abbot or whatever his name is chap?

Ever tried terminating a coathanger?

 

[insider9]

My very personal opinion, is that a decent Mains Cable makes a significant difference, especially if connected to the Amp...that might even be measureable. I also think some Sources can benefit....but the difference isn't as significant and the cable doesn't need to be as expensive.

I don't expect anyone to believe me, or take my word for anything. In your case, I think you will bring a reasonably objective approach to all this. You will be reasonably immune to Snake Oil, or Subjectivists like me....but on the other hand, you won't dissmiss what you hear out of hand, on the grounds that it's impossible.

I apologise to the OP for the hijack. I'm sure you will post your findings on a thread, so I'll comment there.

Agreed! I purposely kept it off Esoteric thread. I do probably have a quite an unhealthy dose of scepticism around cables Mains cables are something I'd want to try again. It didn't make any difference before, but maybe my system wasn't revealing enough *biggrin*

 

[CnoEvil]

Ever tried terminating a coathanger?

Very often they Terminate themselves....or at least the cheap ones do. *blush*

 

[Native_bon]

Look what I got In my signature.. I ate some placebo 3 months ago... *blum3*

 

[CnoEvil]

Agreed! I purposely kept it off Esoteric thread. I do probably have a quite an unhealthy dose of scepticism around cables Mains cables are something I'd want to try again. It didn't make any difference before, but maybe my system wasn't revealing enough *biggrin*

If you have access to TQ products for a trial...get the TQ Ultra Silver and Black Power Leads; or TQ Black/Ultra Blue...or all 3.

 

[Hi-FiOutlaw]

Nice to see you on this side in the hifi section

I recently bought a 3 MTR pair of unidirectional speakers cables called ' highend master class'. These are supposedly hand made in Germany.

When I plugged them in, in place of my supra ply. The difference was really huge. But after settling in for a few days, and trying to realise what they were doing differently. I realised that they had increased the treble to increase the sense of clarity. Maybe the background is more quiet too, but that might be just psychoacoustics.

So iam firmly entrenched in the 'use digital eq' to tune your systems sound than use cables. As advocated by Insider9

Try InAkustik cables, now a viable in the UK, hand made in Germany and they only use cooper, thank God, as I never tried a non cooper cable that I liked, ALL too edgy for my taste.

My InAkustik speaker cables are a gem, they served me very well with Dynaudio, and now with Boenicke speakers. IMO a good cooper cable is all ou ever need!

 

[iceman16]

Just bought another s/h pair of MIT AVt MA interconnect (rca).

 

[insider9]

Agreed! I purposely kept it off Esoteric thread. I do probably have a quite an unhealthy dose of scepticism around cables Mains cables are something I'd want to try again. It didn't make any difference before, but maybe my system wasn't revealing enough *biggrin*

If you have access to TQ products for a trial...get the TQ Ultra Silver and Black Power Leads; or TQ Black/Ultra Blue...or all 3.

This one is not a trial. I bought them out of curiosity. Like anything I do, really Thought if Esoteric won't show the "night and day" differences nothing will. So far, I can't say they've changed my mind about the whole thing. I've heard differences before, I've heard them now. Are they night and day? No. Are they worth it? Not sure yet.

Maybe it's all because I don't have a good mains cable *mosking*

 

[CnoEvil]

This one is not a trial. I bought them out of curiosity. Like anything I do, really Thought if Esoteric won't show the "night and day" differences nothing will. So far, I can't say they've changed my mind about the whole thing. I've heard differences before, I've heard them now. Are they night and day? No. Are they worth it? Not sure yet.

Maybe it's all because I don't have a good mains cable *mosking*

IME. What you get with better cables is more subtle than "Night and Day".....but you are right to leave them in place for a week or two and then change back....this is where you may find that your system has lost a bit of its mojo. It is at that point that you will have to make the difficult decision as to what value you put on the difference.

FWIW. My view, is never spend more on cables, than would bring a bigger improvement by spending it on something else. If your system is exactly as you want it, the cables are imo a way of maximizing what you have.

 

[insider9]

My view, is never spend more on cables, than would bring a bigger improvement by spending it on something else.

 

[alchemist 1]

Fake News !!!!!!!!!!!!!...........*smile*

 

[Romulus]

What contributes more to the placebo effect in Hi Fi, expensive cables or burning in HiFi components for long periods?

 

[ellisdj]

Insider have you taken the TQ out yet and gone back to your original cable?
That's always a good indicator ime noticing what's missing is sometimes easier

If you haven't wait for a few weeks minimum before doing so if they were brand new.
Also do your speakers have jumper post across high and low freq terminals?? There will be flack for the comment but did you get the matching jumper cables. You need them really to test things properly imo.

 

[insider9]

After some AB comparisons I've left TQ Silver in and don't intend to take them out for at least a few weeks. After that we'll see.

No jumpers at the minute. This was a rush decision. TQ Silver going to high frequencies with self made jumpers. These are thick stranded silver plated copper going to woofers. That's 250Hz and under. There's no measurable difference between a £3 a meter solid core copper cable I've used previously and almost £96 TQ Silver. I will of course experiment with it in a bit, but this is very much secondary now. I can even run two sets of cables from two terminals. Like is said it's not a priority. Esoteric is my priority.

 

[ellisdj]

You wont see a freq response difference or an impulse reponse difference from changing a source or other links in the chain but you hear them, thats not the indicator.

I recorded black vs black II speaker cables and the peceived difference in bass extension between them was so marked I could record it easily, yet in reality the speaker cables would measure the same in terms of frequency from a sweep I am sure. When its time try them with the jumpers.

 

[insider9]

I realise that. I've measured enough gear and cables not to expect to see a difference. Unless it's the speakers, or changes to a room. It's pretty much the same with amps and we know they sound different.

However this in itself is an interesting point. What would I have to measure to get a clear indication of a difference? It has to be measurable acoustically, right? If we can hear it, it should show up somewhere.

 

[andyjm]

You wont see a freq response difference or an impulse reponse difference from changing a source or other links in the chain but you hear them, thats not the indicator.

..and there my friends is the whole story in a nutshell.

If changing the amp/cables/source makes no measurable difference to the output, then either the measuring equipment is not up to it - or the output hasn't changed.

I am still surprised that enthusiasts can't accept that it is their perception that changes when components are substituted, not the sound output.

 

[ellisdj]

measuring frequency response is done with a sweep of fixed volume and pitch and tone.

It's clearly not reflective of actual content music movie speech or whatever.

The differences are recordable as I have done it and will continue to do it. If you can record it it's there as microphones do not have bias

 

[andyjm]

measuring frequency response is done with a sweep of fixed volume and pitch and tone.

It's clearly not reflective of actual content music movie speech or whatever.

The differences are recordable as I have done it and will continue to do it. If you can record it it's there as microphones do not have bias

Audio diffmaker is a free software package that allows the comparison of two digital audio files. Record one file before the change (cable, amp, source, whatever) and another file after the change. The software does some fancy time and gain alignment and then produces a difference file. No difference between before and after, then whatever the the change was, it has made no difference.

http://www.libinst.com/Audio%20DiffMaker.htm

 

[ellisdj]

You Could also watch this.

1571 watches - 0 comments of no difference heard, 2 thumbs down, but no comment still - Very statisically signifiant from a pure numbers point of view

As we know hifi people are not backwards in coming forward with criticism, remarks, snide comments and to try and set the the record straight.

However sometimes the sound does the talking and there can be very little said

 

[andyjm]

You Could also watch this.

Elisdj, was this a joke - are you seriously suggesting that this youtube video demonstrates anything?

 

[cheeseboy]

measuring frequency response is done with a sweep of fixed volume and pitch and tone.

It's clearly not reflective of actual content music movie speech or whatever.

The differences are recordable as I have done it and will continue to do it. If you can record it it's there as microphones do not have bias

a more eleoquant explanation for what you are experiencing

https://youtu.be/lyu7v7nWzfo?t=6m5s

 

[ellisdj]

watch it and listen you can hear the difference between 2 speaker cables recorded that are near identical in construction size shape length etc.

 

[ellisdj]

It's not the only thing I have demonstrated the difference with by recording it and won't be the last either.