Dolby Atmos Speakers

[bigboss]

More channels sharing the same Power Supply seems more features than function to me

AV receivers have always crammed more features than function. I'm surprised why they can't make a cup of tea yet!

 

[bigboss]

You can get decent ceiling speakers for around £50 each. I don't see much point in spending a lot on them. What would 2nd & 3rd generation Atmos bring?

I personally would buy speakers from the same package as the other speakers in the system otherwise you might subjectively subtract, rather than add to the sound stage. Especially if panning effects are changing in sonic signture as they move around the room.

If you look at the manufacturers' websites, most offer in-wall and in-ceiling speakers that are a tonal match to your existing speaker package. They will be exactly the same speakers without a cabinet.

True, but I suspect that they will be a little more than 50 pounds. Doesn't the lack of cabinet change the tone?

I'm sure I'm missing something though

I'm considering £50 speakers with tonal match for my setup:

http://www.whathifi.com/forum/your-system/new-house-new-plans

Although, now I think I should go for Trimless 100 series instead.

Yes, speaker cabinet does affect sound, not sure if it translates to tonal mismatch as well, as same drivers are used.

 

[bigboss]

More channels sharing the same Power Supply seems more features than function to me

AV receivers have always crammed more features than function. I'm surprised why they can't make a cup of tea yet!

Historically, the more expensive and better sounding receivers have supported more channels. This is what Yamaha says about its 3040:

"The Total Purity Concept, which Yamaha has been cultivating for many years, encompasses high drive amp technology, high purity pre-amplification, anti-vibration technology and independent pure power supplies. All models have a fully discrete power amplifier that helps to minimise distortion. They also adopt independent pure power supplies, allowing dedicated power supplies for the analogue and digital circuitry to prevent digital noise from affecting analogue circuitry. The anti-vibration heatsinks are designed to suppress vibration from transistors and sound pressure. Independent power supplies for the DACs are designed to further eliminate noise on certain models. Down to every detail, these AV receivers are designed with full emphasis on the highest possible sound quality."

"Symmetrical power amplifier layout:

This is just one of the many design details that all combine to create a superior receiver. The interior of the unit has been precisely planned, circuit-routed and built so that the left and right channels are physically and electrically isolated. This naturally maximises channel separation, but also greatly improves signal to noise ratio and also helps to achieve a wide, open sound stage."

 

[ellisdj]

Seperating the digital power from the analogue is a good idea no doubt.

Symmetrical design sounds good for 2 channels - its not its shared across 11 channels so each channel taps power from the same limited source.

Isolation / Vibration control is good - there appears to be a 5th leg on the new model which seems new on a product - I am guessing to suppor the weight of the transfomer - this is what vibrates the most I think.

 

[bigboss]

Yamaha Aventage range always had 5 feet.

 

[Sliced Bread]

It's also worth noting that you don't have to go full 7.1.4. If you do 5.1.2 then you're still only using 7 channels, though I appreciate that an additional power amp might be beneficial.

 

[Sliced Bread]

:rockout: Maybe one day we'll start seeing receivers with two mains plugs :rockout:

 

[Frank Harvey]

It looks like the first blu-ray dolby Atmos film will be godzilla thats due out in september.i would imagine that it will sound better in a bigger room due to how the whole Atmos thing sounds and to give a wider soundstage.Im happy with my 7.3 set up at the moment,but never say never.

Atmos is more about height than extra width.

 

[Frank Harvey]

Does it not concern people that one would associate best sound quality to monoblocks 1 amp per speaker in theory - why - because of many reasons.

Now 11 channels from not only 1 amplifier but 1 mains supply is getting further and further away from the above...... ?

This is a huge concern for me in terms of SQ - it cant be getting better can only be going the other way IMO

Anyone is free to go the monoblock route if they can afford it - the cheapest worthwhile monoblocks would be something like Audiolab's 8200Ms, which would set you back about £7k - for that you can pick up a five channel power amp like a Chord SPM2400 which would be in a different league as far as quality and capability is concerned. So yes, less channels can sound better for the same budget. But adding Atmos to an existing 5.1/7.1 system only requires two or four extra speakers, either adding additional amplification or replacing existing amplification with something that has seven/nine/eleven channels.

A good quality multichannel amplification is more than good enough for AV purposes - bigger quality gains can be had choosing the right processor/speakers.

 

[HomeSound]

More channels do make a difference but as with most systems it is the balance of the investment versus the sound achieved that is a key factor. High quality 5.1 will happily out perform incorrectly set up or low quality 9.2. The need for speakers and a larger soundifeld will depend on your room - stuffing all the speakers under the sun in a tiny room will not assure you of a great sound even if you have an Atmos badge.

Atmos and Auro 3D have their place in dedicated rooms first and foremost but with the appropriate space I have no doubt they will deliver the goods.

 

[Frank Harvey]

As I say, the good thing about Atmos is that it only requires two or four in-ceiling speakers to achieve - presuming the rest of the system is well placed, and up to scratch, which is achievable in a normal living room, unlike going for extra (wall mounted) height speakers front and back.

 

[Sliced Bread]

As I say, the good thing about Atmos is that it only requires two or four in-ceiling speakers to achieve - presuming the rest of the system is well placed, and up to scratch, which is achievable in a normal living room, unlike going for extra (wall mounted) height speakers front and back.

The problem is fitting the in-ceiling and running cable

Looking at the B&W website though it seems that as BIGBOSS was saying that you can get them fairly cheaply. It looks like they have some based on the CM drivers for about 250 a pair. They have two tweeters to diffuse the sound too . It is tempting, but I'm really not sure about how I can lay the cable without having to take the carpet and floor boards up in the room above.

I am a little concerned about tonal differences too, as I don't want to muddy the sound stage. Problem with in-ceilings is that you have to really install them before you can determine whether you like them or not.

 

[bigboss]

I would suggest you speak to a professional installer sliced bread. They know how to run cables without damaging the walls and without the need for a repaint / replaster.

 

[Sliced Bread]

I would suggest you speak to a professional installer sliced bread. They know how to run cables without damaging the walls and without the need for a repaint / replaster.

Probably the best way.

Alternaticely I can atttach a small camer and an LCD keyring tourch to a small remote controlled car...tie one ond of the cable to the car, put it in the hole and drive it to the other side of the room :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce:

 

[Frank Harvey]

I am a little concerned about tonal differences too, as I don't want to muddy the sound stage. Problem with in-ceilings is that you have to really install them before you can determine whether you like them or not.

That's the main thing really. It might be tempting to buy something to just do the job, but if they're discreet channels they'll need to be just as capable as the rest of the speakers in order to blend in seamlessly. As always, variables at play, so best to keep presumptions for when full details are available and understood.

 

[Sliced Bread]

I am a little concerned about tonal differences too, as I don't want to muddy the sound stage. Problem with in-ceilings is that you have to really install them before you can determine whether you like them or not.

That's the main thing really. It might be tempting to buy something to just do the job, but if they're discreet channels they'll need to be just as capable as the rest of the speakers in order to blend in seamlessly. As always, variables at play, so best to keep presumptions for when full details are available and understood.

Very true.

I think there is definitely a market for a cabineted ceiling speaker that can be mounted rather than inserted. Maybe something not too dissimilar to Monitor Audios rear FX speakers.

 

[bigboss]

Alternaticely I can atttach a small camer and an LCD keyring tourch to a small remote controlled car...tie one ond of the cable to the car, put it in the hole and drive it to the other side of the room :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce:

Thakt's a good idea!

 

[skippy]

As I say, the good thing about Atmos is that it only requires two or four in-ceiling speakers to achieve - presuming the rest of the system is well placed, and up to scratch, which is achievable in a normal living room, unlike going for extra (wall mounted) height speakers front and back.

The problem is fitting the in-ceiling and running cable

Looking at the B&W website though it seems that as BIGBOSS was saying that you can get them fairly cheaply. It looks like they have some based on the CM drivers for about 250 a pair. They have two tweeters to diffuse the sound too . It is tempting, but I'm really not sure about how I can lay the cable without having to take the carpet and floor boards up in the room above.

I am a little concerned about tonal differences too, as I don't want to muddy the sound stage. Problem with in-ceilings is that you have to really install them before you can determine whether you like them or not.

If you are worried about how they sound and you are slightly handy you could knock up a 6" x 2" frame 6ft x 1.5ft, then buy a 6' x 3' sheet of drywall. Cut it lengthways down the centre, put one piece on the back of the frame, screwed every 6" or so, then cut out your hole for the speaker, fit to the front of frame and run the cable thru a hole in the frame.

You could experiment with different insulation to see if it alters the sound. Take an hour to make and cost about 20 quid.

I have budget Polk and Yamaha's in-walls/ceiling and I really can't fault em, wish I would have have put insulation overtop just to take the noise down in the room above, but no problem really.

 

[Glacialpath]

If your speakers are slightly above your head in the first place, any sound that is intended to be above you should be.

As I mentioned before it is all about definition hence why Blu-Ray has up to 7.1 allowing the surrounds to be either side of you and the surround back being behind you.

You could get away with 7.1.2 really just to help with definition above you. The could be placed inline with the center channel and act in a mono fashion but bleded in with the other 6 sattelites. I say in a mono line from the center to have one in front and one behind you. Of course I don't know how the encode will work but I imagine the .4 will be 2 stereo pairs, 2 in front and 2 behind. It's nice they have gone straight for 4.

My only 2 concerns are 1. Will the added uncompressed audio mean they have to compremise the compression of the HD picture and 2. Having worked in DVD and BD manufacturing, the company I worked for to my disgust did any 7.1 QC only on a 5.1 set up. I know for a fact the industry of physical disc manufacturing will not me happy having to buy new systems to allow for Atmos and I imagine none of the 7.1.4 encoded discs will get QC'd properly meaning there could be sounds that should be in the ceiling speakers but have the channals missing. They would need audio meters to give them a visual reference as you wouldn't be able to easily put your ear up against ceiling speaker to check audio was coming from them.

I do kind of like the idea of Atmos. I just know it won't looked after very well in the manufacturing process. Some companies might purchase one reciever and make an effort but there are so many production companies looked after buy only a few authoring houses round the world that it will be overwhelming for them.

If it is just for 4K formats, which it clearly isn't they might make more of an effort as it won't be disc bassed. Those are my thoughts.

I just had another thought. Instead of cutting holes in the ceiling why not have some kind of rail system to hang them from. As long as they are made in a fashion that they don't just look like concert rigging then we would be able to adjust them like you might play around with your fronts on a Hi-Fi.

I wish I new how to manufacture something like this. I migt be able to make some money. You could feed the cables to the speakers from smal holes in the ceiling. (c) T. Earis 28th June 2014

 

[Frank Harvey]

My only 2 concerns are 1. Will the added uncompressed audio mean they have to compremise the compression of the HD picture

It shouldn't do. Most Blurays use less than half of the disc space on picture anyway, so it should be unaffected.

2. Having worked in DVD and BD manufacturing, the company I worked for to my disgust did any 7.1 QC only on a 5.1 set up. I know for a fact the industry of physical disc manufacturing will not me happy having to buy new systems to allow for Atmos and I imagine none of the 7.1.4 encoded discs will get QC'd properly meaning there could be sounds that should be in the ceiling speakers but have the channals missing. They would need audio meters to give them a visual reference as you wouldn't be able to easily put your ear up against ceiling speaker to check audio was coming from them.

I do kind of like the idea of Atmos. I just know it won't looked after very well in the manufacturing process. Some companies might purchase one reciever and make an effort but there are so many production companies looked after buy only a few authoring houses round the world that it will be overwhelming for them.

Just the same as Bluray at the moment then. Many Blurays are mislabelled with regards to the mix, and sometimes even the sound format it uses. Some have TrueHD/DTS-MA logos when they aren't even HD audio.

If the companies involved in this want it to work, it needs to be tightly controlled and done properly, unlike 3D.

 

[bigboss]

A good article on AV forums. Especially interesting is this comment:

"Atmos is the first home cinema system that is based not on channels, but on audio objects. What is an audio object? Any sound heard in a movie scene - a helicopter taking off, for example - is an audio object. Filmmakers using Dolby Atmos can decide exactly where the sound of this helicopter should originate and precisely where it should move as the scene develops. Thinking about sound in this way eliminates many of the limitations of channel-based audio. In a channel-based system, filmmakers have to think about the speaker setup - should the sound of the helicopter come from the left rear surrounds or the left side surrounds? With Atmos, filmmakers just have to think about the story and simply where is the helicopter going within the dimensional space of the film itself?"

http://www.avforums.com/article/a-guide-to-dolby-atmos-home-cinema-surround-sound.10476

 

[Sliced Bread]

I wonder when we are going to get to see some announcements from the major speaker brands, presenting their Dolby Atmos speakers?

I'm real curious to see whether they create new packages from scratch or add Atmos speakers to their existing packages. I hope it's the later.

 

[bigboss]

Onkyo is offering free Atmos speakers with their Atmos enabled receivers.

 

[skippy]

Bryston's just announced that they're doing in-ceiling/walls.

http://canadahifi.com/bryston-ciw-ceilingin-wall-speaker/

 

[Sliced Bread]

Interesting. It was also good to see the Kef modules in the News section.

The Guardian also has an article on it which shows some prototypes, and they report that AV Receivers buiit in the last two years could potentially be backward compatible via a firmware update. I doubt however, whether any of the manufacturers will do this.