abacus
Well-known member
If your using studio monitors on your computer they don't need to have DSP built in as you just install a DSP Plug-in. (You can also get external DSP hardware if you don't want to use the speakers with a computer)
Bill
If your using studio monitors on your computer they don't need to have DSP built in as you just install a DSP Plug-in. (You can also get external DSP hardware if you don't want to use the speakers with a computer)
Bill
chris661
Well-known member
Here goes...
Buying another one isn't always an option.
Yep, let's examine that.
You get the music from whatever medium (CD, vinyl, digital storage), put it through an amplifier, and then pass it on to speakers which have lots of colouration, and passes the sound into a room, which will add its own set of issues.
The colouration takes you further away from what's on the record.
EQ can help to remove that colouration, and you get closer to the music.
I'd consider a measurement setup to be my single best investment in audio.
As I said, you're using EQ to linearise your HiFi, meaning the sound you're hearing is more true to what's on the record. That applies to every record.
If you want to use the tone controls to add more bass/treble to a system, that's up to the listener's preferences. I'm talking about using EQ to get a flat, even, in-room response.
Take a look at the latest active speakers. They sound considerably better than their passive counterparts because they use active crossovers and EQ correction which isn't possible in a passive crossover.
If the album is mixed that way, then that's how I'll listen to it. It left the studio that way for a reason, and I'm content to enjoy it that way.
To reiterate, because it does seem like you've missed my point(s) entirely: I'm not talking about using EQ to make the album sound how I think it should sound. I'm talking about using EQ to make the speakers flat in-room, so that I hear what's actually on the record.
I'm glad you're happy with your system. If you're near Sheffield and are interested in a different approach to HiFi system design, feel free to get in touch.
Chris
PS - your KEF LS50 Wireless speakers have some amount of EQ built-in. You have options for telling them if they're on stands, near walls etc. Those switches adjust the frequency response accordingly.
Buying another one isn't always an option.
Yep, let's examine that.
You get the music from whatever medium (CD, vinyl, digital storage), put it through an amplifier, and then pass it on to speakers which have lots of colouration, and passes the sound into a room, which will add its own set of issues.
The colouration takes you further away from what's on the record.
EQ can help to remove that colouration, and you get closer to the music.
I'd consider a measurement setup to be my single best investment in audio.
As I said, you're using EQ to linearise your HiFi, meaning the sound you're hearing is more true to what's on the record. That applies to every record.
If you want to use the tone controls to add more bass/treble to a system, that's up to the listener's preferences. I'm talking about using EQ to get a flat, even, in-room response.
Take a look at the latest active speakers. They sound considerably better than their passive counterparts because they use active crossovers and EQ correction which isn't possible in a passive crossover.
If the album is mixed that way, then that's how I'll listen to it. It left the studio that way for a reason, and I'm content to enjoy it that way.
To reiterate, because it does seem like you've missed my point(s) entirely: I'm not talking about using EQ to make the album sound how I think it should sound. I'm talking about using EQ to make the speakers flat in-room, so that I hear what's actually on the record.
I'm glad you're happy with your system. If you're near Sheffield and are interested in a different approach to HiFi system design, feel free to get in touch.
Chris
PS - your KEF LS50 Wireless speakers have some amount of EQ built-in. You have options for telling them if they're on stands, near walls etc. Those switches adjust the frequency response accordingly.
davidf
Well-known member
Most speakers are designed to have certain characteristics in order to make them sound unique to that manufacturer. If they all sounded the same, we’d be buying on looks.
I find it funny, and a little bit odd, that hifi systems in the 70s had no digital EQ back then, but was the golden age for hifi systems and music itself, where people would just get on and listen to the music. They weren’t worried about perfect speaker placement. They weren’t worried about creating a flat response throughout their listening room. They weren’t even that worried about a flat response (given the Linn/Naim/Quad systems of the time). But everyone enjoyed music, regardless of the actual in-room response they were experiencing. This quest for the flattest response seems to consume people, and help listeners towards a system that isn’t necessarily more enjoyable to listen to.
I fully appreciate that no loudspeaker is perfect, but some loudspeakers have, integrated into their design, features to help the response in whatever room they’re in. And for those that don’t, there are basic things that can be done to minimise the in-room issues they might be experiencing. Most issues tend to be below 300Hz, give or take, so applying digital EQ to the whole frequency range isn’t really necessary. If there’s some 6dB peak somewhere in the frequency response, that’s probably caused by placement or some room reflection somewhere - these changes be addressed physically, without digital EQ. If the peak is due to the driver breaking up at a certain frequency, that’s a design issue, which I’m sure would seriously affect their sales, and is something that really should be addressed in the original design.
My post was just stating that relying on digital EQ to get rid of unwanted peaks and troughs changes the intended sound of any speaker, and is fundamentally altering the signal that should be leaving the loudspeaker. And its only doing that for the listening position - outside of that will probably sound worse because of it. I’m not against digital EQ, I just think it needs to be used sparingly. I’m also not against anyone who wants to use EQ to hear the system they‘ve paid good money for how they want to hear it. That’s preference. I’m also not against those who seek a totally flat response, as long as they know exactly what it is they’re working toward so they won’t be disappointed when they get there.
It‘s all good
Jimboo
Well-known member
I own Kef ls50w with the fiddle factor included. I chose them to rid myself of boxes and cables and associated broo ha about synergy and matching cables etc,etc. I wanted the option of using tidal to discover new music easily. They fail miserably using tidal as the Kef stream app is a joke. The much praised EQ function changes things and not in a good way. The slider volume is a sick joke and since the apps are so abysmal I doubt that any real honest transparent benefit from EQ fiddling is anything but a gimmick.
Fail to understand that buying or replacing components is not possible?
Colouration is a word used that has no real definition in the world of hi-fi. It is similar to the stupidity when c.d's are described as cold and metallic. It's a description that seems to be considered fact when it simply doesn't actually mean anything.
EQ making a flat sound I kind of understand but when do you know you have achieved this state? I mean you are trying to hear it as you think it should sound. This should all really be settled during the demo period. As stated the golden age of hifi required no added trickery as such.High end makers removed tone and bass controls because the magic was already there.
I am struggling with the idea of a flat even response without it being dependent on your ears, which is why we demo things , you know. I don't know how you can ever be happy with your system. Some placement and room issues obviously will effect the sound but EQ sliders on an app sending instructions to a control board is a little bit of a leap of faith.
My Kef speakers are fantastic with a transport and my turntable. The EQ is shaky , confusing and honestly woeful. I spent a long time with it and I just wasted my time to be honest. When the recording is good you hear it.
It really is more important to spend time finding the right recording.
Brick walled recordings the loudness war and remasters along with pro tools etc really diminished what makes music , music.
All the versions of say Dylan's blood on the tracks remaster or fidelity pressings etc what is the most coveted? The abandoned original sessions, you can hear Dylan's cuff buttons making contact with the guitar body. The faults the untreated vocals and for many the crackle and pop of vinyl just makes the experience truer. There is no audial ? nirvana.
Fail to understand that buying or replacing components is not possible?
Colouration is a word used that has no real definition in the world of hi-fi. It is similar to the stupidity when c.d's are described as cold and metallic. It's a description that seems to be considered fact when it simply doesn't actually mean anything.
EQ making a flat sound I kind of understand but when do you know you have achieved this state? I mean you are trying to hear it as you think it should sound. This should all really be settled during the demo period. As stated the golden age of hifi required no added trickery as such.High end makers removed tone and bass controls because the magic was already there.
I am struggling with the idea of a flat even response without it being dependent on your ears, which is why we demo things , you know. I don't know how you can ever be happy with your system. Some placement and room issues obviously will effect the sound but EQ sliders on an app sending instructions to a control board is a little bit of a leap of faith.
My Kef speakers are fantastic with a transport and my turntable. The EQ is shaky , confusing and honestly woeful. I spent a long time with it and I just wasted my time to be honest. When the recording is good you hear it.
It really is more important to spend time finding the right recording.
Brick walled recordings the loudness war and remasters along with pro tools etc really diminished what makes music , music.
All the versions of say Dylan's blood on the tracks remaster or fidelity pressings etc what is the most coveted? The abandoned original sessions, you can hear Dylan's cuff buttons making contact with the guitar body. The faults the untreated vocals and for many the crackle and pop of vinyl just makes the experience truer. There is no audial ? nirvana.
Many speakers from the 70's have tone controls, adjustmenst for the highs, mids and lows
Jimboo
Well-known member
Freddy58
Well-known member
If I think it needs it, I’ll adjust the tone controls. I really don’t understand the notion that if one doesn’t like the tone their system is providing, that they should *** out and spend hundred/thousands on some spurious upgrade. Relax folks, turn that dial, if you want to 👍
knaithrover
Well-known member
If the basics with power,bass, not to bright is right, why do you wanna try to adjust a record or song that isn't good recorded or try to change how it sounds so you don't here it how they made the record, who they wnat it to sound ?
Why do you buy a system and sometimes change the bass or highs?
Personally i don't need to and don't want to, all music shouldn't sound the same, the same v shaped sound with alot of bass and high (as i often see in youtube videos)
Why do you buy a system and sometimes change the bass or highs?
Personally i don't need to and don't want to, all music shouldn't sound the same, the same v shaped sound with alot of bass and high (as i often see in youtube videos)
I would like to recommend this live concert with chris rea!
There is not to much highs, no aggressiveness, a good warm bass, good empahsis on the guitar as it should be, without being sharp and you can hear what chris is singing, even when he has a slightly dark voice.
When something sounds good you don't need to adjust the highs and lows
Stop adjusting the music with eq's,tonecontrols (i asume you have once adjusted your system,speaker) and listen to some music, that's what it's all about, listening to music.
I would go nuts having to adjust a tradition equalizer (let's say 10 band) every time i put on a new record for it to sound almost the same as the last record (same amount of bass,high).
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WqPB74rkK-I
There is not to much highs, no aggressiveness, a good warm bass, good empahsis on the guitar as it should be, without being sharp and you can hear what chris is singing, even when he has a slightly dark voice.
When something sounds good you don't need to adjust the highs and lows
Stop adjusting the music with eq's,tonecontrols (i asume you have once adjusted your system,speaker) and listen to some music, that's what it's all about, listening to music.
I would go nuts having to adjust a tradition equalizer (let's say 10 band) every time i put on a new record for it to sound almost the same as the last record (same amount of bass,high).
knaithrover
Well-known member
Each to their own. I've always liked to have the option to eq. I'm not constantly fiddling, I set the sound up how I like it which tends to be bass at 20 past treble at 5 past and then leave it. It's quite simple and a matter of personal taste. I certainly prefer having the option to twiddle if I want to.
if you need to adjust the low/highs you might not have the right system speakers, many speakers you can have in a v shaped sound, lots of lows and highs or not intrusive like wharfedale diamond 225, it's just a matter of finding speakers that sound the way you like instaed of trying to make them sound the way you like, compensate for how they don't sound.
insider9
Well-known member
It's only a matter of musical enjoyment. If EQ gives you that do it. If you enjoy it more without don't. You can swap speakers all your life and never be happy or you can turn the knob once.
knaithrover
Well-known member
It's a matter of taste but I certainly prefer turning a knob an eighth of an inch rather than swapping out my speakers Anyways I find it's the amp that needs a touch of eq not the speaker. My Peachtree amp for instance is ok flat but at another level entirely with a tiny bit of eq added regardless of the speaker. Like I said each to their own and if that's what you think then great.
Not as dramatic as using an eq
Using cable to adjust sound don't have the same influence of max power,distortion when playing loud
Using cable to adjust sound don't have the same influence of max power,distortion when playing loud
Gray
Well-known member
Freddy58
Well-known member
Gasolin, you are of course at liberty to constantly change some aspects of your system, no matter the cost, but I’ve found that +3 on my treble dial gives me exactly what I want, and doesn’t cost me a penny.
Hawkmoon
Well-known member
and there’s the thing - who can say you’re wrong if you’re getting a sound that you find pleasing? I really don’t like the hi-fi police who say you must or mustn’t do x,y and z- my ears have most likely taken a beating through many years of attending rock concerts - I remember my ears ringing for 5 days solid after a Jimmy Page concert in the ‘80s . Most likely my hearing has suffered and so I often reach for the bass and treble and tweak them a bit -not per album, I can usually find a setting I can live with for most music. I know purists scoff at tone controls but if the sound you end up with makes you happy, who is wrong and who is right? Maybe if I had Macintosh or Krell or whatever £30k system I might not feel the need for tone controls, but on my far more modest system I usually prefer a slightly boosted bass and treble versus ‘source direct’. Call me a heathen I don’t care.
Dom
Well-known member
Hawkmoon
Well-known member
Yeah I'd probably get a 1980s graphic equaliser off ebay to add to the Krell ;-)
Chris why would you do that? Most speakers arent flat, so if you don't like how the frequency response is why buy the speakers when you try to make them sound flat, ever heard of studio monitors ?
If you want to use the tone controls to add more bass/treble to a system, that's up to the listener's preferences. I'm talking about using EQ to get a flat, even, in-room response.
Dali rubicon 8
Klipsch Forte III
Yamaha studio monitors
If you want to use the tone controls to add more bass/treble to a system, that's up to the listener's preferences. I'm talking about using EQ to get a flat, even, in-room response.
Dali rubicon 8
Klipsch Forte III
Yamaha studio monitors
chris661
Well-known member
I assume you're talking to me here.
Most HiFi speakers aren't flat. As your graphs show, they often head towards boom/tizz (elevated bass and treble), which is impressive for two minutes and then sounds lifeless and fatiguing. For a short demo in a HiFi shop, that tonality will sell boxes. I wouldn't want to listen to them for long, though, before trying to find a way of balancing them out and bringing the midrange forwards. After all, most music is in the midrange.
I try to get them to have a flat response because that sounds the best to me. It's getting as close as possible to "high fidelity", by using speakers that introduce minimum colouration.
Yes, I've heard of studio monitors. I've used a fair few of them, too. Studio monitors can be used for HiFi (and by the above definition and your graphs, they do a better job, too!), and HiFi speakers can be used as studio monitors.
The problem is that even a flat speaker doesn't guarantee a good listening experience. It does help, in my experience, but the book doesn't stop there.
I've mentioned it before, but I'll say it again: at all listening positions, my room has a large peak in the bass. Since it would benefit all listeners, I use EQ to knock that peak down. That means my in-room response is now flat in the bass - the sound went from "boomy" to "tuneful".
So, there are two places where EQ can be useful:
- Non-flat speakers
- Non-flat rooms
I built my own speakers because the speakers I want* are too expensive for me to buy right now.
* Dutch & Dutch 8C or
Gedlee NS15 or
JBL 708P
Something you'll note about those models is that they all feature some method of controlling directivity. That is, they can control (to some extent) where the sound goes, and where it doesn't. In my experience, that's a really important factor that doesn't seem to get considered much in the HiFi world.
Chris
Dom
Well-known member
So, I think we can agree that EQ has a place. I personally would use one, to gain better performance. It's just a great sound anyway...
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