Do I need a better DAC?

[ber2k]

Hi all. I need advice.

My budget setup consists of Apple TV connected to Marantz PM5004 via a cheap Neet DAC (optical to RCA) and the amp is powering Tannoy Mercury V1 standmounted.

I mainly stream AAC 256kbps/MP3 320kbps via iTunes/Spotify via PC, iPhone using AirPlay/Airfoil, but considered ripping CDs again to Apple Lossless or similar. But this is not a priority at the moment.

With this setup and sources, would I get much benefit from a pricier DAC? Or even a similarly priced different one? I am not that dissatisfied with the Neet DAC, it does a job, but I sometimes feel I could be getting more.

The Fiio D3 gets favourable reviews but will it be better than what I've got? Is TEAC, Dacmagic, VDAC etc going to dramatically change things?

Appreciate any advice you can give.

Ber2k

 

[Devondave]

Hi

There are some real bargains around these days on DAC's as they are becoming more popular. I would definately recommend looking at either the Arcam rDAC or the Meridian Explorer USB DAC.

Both are under £300 and please connect either of them with a good USB cable, such as The Chord Company it really does make all the difference.

If you are not convinced read the articles on the link below.

http://www.hifiideas.com/page/2/

Cheers

Dave

 

[Overdose]

The Fiio D3 gets favourable reviews but will it be better than what I've got? Is TEAC, Dacmagic, VDAC etc going to dramatically change things?

Appreciate any advice you can give.

Ber2k

Nothing will dramaticaly change things. Dramatic changes in sound are the preserve of speakers, unless something is horribly wrong somewhere.

Many people are more than happy with the output of an ATV, AEX, Sonos etc.

 

[Devondave]

Hi

I would still recommend having a good listen to a number of DAC's as although a good pair of speakers will make a difference, a poor front end will get shown up.

Personally I found using a good DAC such as my Meridian 566 to put a DVD through rather than a DAC inside the Denon DVD made a vast difference to sound quality.

So would say do not under estimate the difference a good DAC will make as a good front end to a great pair of speakers will give you a better experience.

Systems need to be good throughout the chain from Source to speakers including importantly, cables and equipment stands.

Cheers

Dave

 

[VoodooDoctor]

Would it not be worth first ripping a few CDs as Lossless and comparing them to the lower bitrate equivalent before spending money? It seems strange to me that you'd spend a few hundred pounds as you feel things could be improved when you're not putting the "best" source material into the DAC.

 

[nopiano]

Would it not be worth first ripping a few CDs as Lossless and comparing them to the lower bitrate equivalent before spending money? It seems strange to me that you'd spend a few hundred pounds as you feel things could be improved when you're not putting the "best" source material into the DAC.

I completely agree. You cannot make mp3 sound like a good CD by simply changing the DAC.

 

[relocated]

Would it not be worth first ripping a few CDs as Lossless and comparing them to the lower bitrate equivalent before spending money? It seems strange to me that you'd spend a few hundred pounds as you feel things could be improved when you're not putting the "best" source material into the DAC.

I completely agree. You cannot make mp3 sound like a good CD by simply changing the DAC.

+1, this small bit of work could save you a nice sum.

 

[Craig M.]

Hi

There are some real bargains around these days on DAC's as they are becoming more popular. I would definately recommend looking at either the Arcam rDAC or the Meridian Explorer USB DAC.

Both are under £300 and please connect either of them with a good USB cable, such as The Chord Company it really does make all the difference.

If you are not convinced read the articles on the link below.

http://www.hifiideas.com/page/2/

Cheers

Dave

So you recommend products that are available via paid adverts on the site you linked to, that just happens to be run by someone called Dave?

 

[Overdose]

Hi

I would still recommend having a good listen to a number of DAC's as although a good pair of speakers will make a difference, a poor front end will get shown up.

What would a good example of a poor front end be? I don't think I've ever heard one.

These days I thik that all digital front ends are much the same.

 

[Overdose]

Hi

There are some real bargains around these days on DAC's as they are becoming more popular. I would definately recommend looking at either the Arcam rDAC or the Meridian Explorer USB DAC.

Both are under £300 and please connect either of them with a good USB cable, such as The Chord Company it really does make all the difference.

If you are not convinced read the articles on the link below.

http://www.hifiideas.com/page/2/

Cheers

Dave

So you recommend products that are available via paid adverts on the site you linked to, that just happens to be run by someone called Dave?

Devon Dave in fact.

 

[altruistic.lemon]

Perhaps a touch hypocritical - if it were Ash of Nailsworth would you complain?

 

[Overdose]

Perhaps a touch hypocritical - if it were Ash of Nailsworth would you complain?

I think that Craig.M is hinting that some rule breaking may have happened and that applies to all users of this forum. I imagine that DevonDave would benefit directly if someone bought an item through a link on his own website.

 

[Craig M.]

Perhaps a touch hypocritical

Really? Please show me the links I've provided that could benefit me financially.

What's that? You can't? Of course you can't, I wouldn't do it because it's taking the p***.

The other part of your post is pathetic but becoming par for the course from you.

 

[BenLaw]

Simple test. If you choose to post on a forum you follow the house rules. Is devondave in breach of them? It certainly appears so. Is Ashley James or any of the AVI posters? No.

 

[fr0g]

Would it not be worth first ripping a few CDs as Lossless and comparing them to the lower bitrate equivalent before spending money? It seems strange to me that you'd spend a few hundred pounds as you feel things could be improved when you're not putting the "best" source material into the DAC.

I completely agree. You cannot make mp3 sound like a good CD by simply changing the DAC.

Disagree.

imo, 320 Kbps MP3 and 256 Kbps AAC are transparent. ie inaudibly different to the original.

And while all DACs (chips)should sound much the same, all implementions don't

-

I would see if you could test your DAC against a decent budget model such as a Beresford or Cambridge.

I certainly improved the sound from my old Squeezebox (duet) with a DAC change (and blind tested it, not that I needed to, the Duet analogue outs were awful(SB Touch was a million times better) )

 

[Devondave]

So some myth busting...All Digital Sources are of equal quality...Well actually they are not.

An iPod, uses Apple Loss Less files, which are not fully loss less, so some quality will be lost, you will on comparison notice a slightly compressed sound to your CD.

Next up is a PC with WAV Loss Less files, an improvement on the iPod file compression but still an element of compression will be noticed, arguably in more expensive systems rather than cheaper ones.

Next we have Media Servers, these are being touted by most experts as a real competition for the CD player. The files ripped onto these are truly Loss Less but good ones cost considerably more than a PC/MAC and DAC system.

Lastly CD players, well they come in all price brackets and you will get what you pay for as strangely a very nice £100 player will not out perform a £1,000 player which in turn will not out perform a high end £30,000 player.

Other formats have been tried and sadly have not taken off, such as DVD Audio and SACD, try going and buying more than a handful of these discs?

It is a shame as these were levels of quality that would firmly convince even the most die hard Vinyl lover that the silver disc is better.

 

[Devondave]

Hi any possible rule breaking was purely accidental for which I apologise if people drew that conclusion. my article does now actually suggest using Meridian and Arcam main dealers, the adverts are there to give an indication on what people might pay, so if the dealer is asking more do haggle with them. The perils of an unfinished article...

My apologies to What HiFi Forum readers if they thought I was trying to sell something, which I am not,

My intention was to recommend two manufacturers products I rate very highly, one as an owner of and the other from hearing a friends Hi Fi which impressed me greatly.

 

[Overdose]

So some myth busting...All Digital Sources are of equal quality...Well actually they are not.

An iPod, uses Apple Loss Less files, which are not fully loss less, so some quality will be lost, you will on comparison notice a slightly compressed sound to your CD.

Next up is a PC with WAV Loss Less files, an improvement on the iPod file compression but still an element of compression will be noticed, arguably in more expensive systems rather than cheaper ones.

Next we have Media Servers, these are being touted by most experts as a real competition for the CD player. The files ripped onto these are truly Loss Less but good ones cost considerably more than a PC/MAC and DAC system.

Lastly CD players, well they come in all price brackets and you will get what you pay for as strangely a very nice £100 player will not out perform a £1,000 player which in turn will not out perform a high end £30,000 player.

Other formats have been tried and sadly have not taken off, such as DVD Audio and SACD, try going and buying more than a handful of these discs?

It is a shame as these were levels of quality that would firmly convince even the most die hard Vinyl lover that the silver disc is better.

Dave, with respect, your post is myth perpetuating not busting.

There is only one measure of performance with regards digital sound quality and that is audible transparency. This can be achieved with a £100 DAC. Once this had been acheived, you cannot improve any further.

It is worth noting that electronics used to build most hifi are cheap, the design of the circuitry is the sole contributor to performance and if the design is sound and the components are selected to meet specification of the design, that's all that really matters.

Spending more on equipment only guarantees one thing, less money in your pocket. The equipment may look nicer than cheap stuff, have better build quality, be more exclusive, hand built and have more features, but there is no guarantee of superior sound.

Lossless files are just that and compressed audio files are also indistinguishable from the original discs as can be tried by using a simple software test, such as with Foobar.

 

[Ben123]

What is the OPs budget? Sorry if i missed it

Firstly, i recommend going lossless - its the cheapest upgrade you can do.

Secondly, not all dacs sound the same - I own 3 dacs including a cyp dac which i believe is similar to your neet dac. Its a good dac for the money but your missing out on quite a bit of detail and excitement. I would recommend getting a dac that doesnt use USB for power (has its own power supply) and one that has async usb - or preferably dont usb at all (optical). Even then theres no guarantee you will like the dacs sound.

The vdac looks good on paper - async usb and its own power supply - but i would want to hear it first (which i havent) before recomending it. You could always test the water with a second hand beresford dac (with gator board) without too much outlay. As your using optical it will sound pretty good. I would avoid the rpac if you like bass - it has lots of detail but its just not for me.

 

[Devondave]

Dave, with respect, your post is myth perpetuating not busting.

There is only one measure of performance with regards digital sound quality and that is audible transparency. This can be achieved with a £100 DAC. Once this had been acheived, you cannot improve any further.

It is worth noting that electronics used to build most hifi are cheap, the design of the circuitry is the sole contributor to performance and if the design is sound and the components are selected to meet specification of the design, that's all that really matters.

Spending more on equipment only guarantees one thing, less money in your pocket. The equipment may look nicer than cheap stuff, have better build quality, be more exclusive, hand built and have more features, but there is no guarantee of superior sound.

Lossless files are just that and compressed audio files are also indistinguishable from the original discs as can be tried by using a simple software test, such as with Foobar.

Sorry to contradict you on this one but sadly I can clearly here the difference between a ripped file and the original CD, my system has also been able to also show the difference between a copied CD (for use in the car) and an original one.

I have a Meridian 566 DAC which currently is working as the DAC for both a Denon 2930 DVD and a Primare T23 DAB Tuner, in blind tests my wife and friends have all picked the option of routing the signal through the Meridian DAC to the cheaper DACS's available in the above units.

The Meridian when new cost £1350 and still sounds brilliant today 15 years later.

I think we will have to agree to differ on the point of anything over £100 is a waste of money as I only spend money on noticeable differences and have spent more than a £100 on a DAC.

 

[Craig M.]

Sorry to contradict you on this one but sadly I can clearly here the difference between a ripped file and the original CD, my system has also been able to also show the difference between a copied CD (for use in the car) and an original one.

There must be something wrong with the drive you are using for ripping your CDs. Lossless files can be proven to be indentical to the original CD. You can easily check this yourself using something vastly more reliable than your ears. Calculate Audio CRC for dBpoweramp would be one way of doing this. This thread explains some other ways of doing the same.

 

[AlmaataKZ]

Dave, with respect, your post is myth perpetuating not busting.

There is only one measure of performance with regards digital sound quality and that is audible transparency. This can be achieved with a £100 DAC. Once this had been acheived, you cannot improve any further.

It is worth noting that electronics used to build most hifi are cheap, the design of the circuitry is the sole contributor to performance and if the design is sound and the components are selected to meet specification of the design, that's all that really matters.

Spending more on equipment only guarantees one thing, less money in your pocket. The equipment may look nicer than cheap stuff, have better build quality, be more exclusive, hand built and have more features, but there is no guarantee of superior sound.

Lossless files are just that and compressed audio files are also indistinguishable from the original discs as can be tried by using a simple software test, such as with Foobar.

Sorry to contradict you on this one but sadly I can clearly here the difference between a ripped file and the original CD, my system has also been able to also show the difference between a copied CD (for use in the car) and an original one.

I have a Meridian 566 DAC which currently is working as the DAC for both a Denon 2930 DVD and a Primare T23 DAB Tuner, in blind tests my wife and friends have all picked the option of routing the signal through the Meridian DAC to the cheaper DACS's available in the above units.

The Meridian when new cost £1350 and still sounds brilliant today 15 years later.

I think we will have to agree to differ on the point of anything over £100 is a waste of money as I only spend money on noticeable differences and have spent more than a £100 on a DAC.

this is spending for an illusion.

 

[quadpatch]

Next up is a PC with WAV Loss Less files, an improvement on the iPod file compression but still an element of compression will be noticed, arguably in more expensive systems rather than cheaper ones.

People have already pointed out that you are very wrong about lossless files, by their very nature they are not different to the originial once they are decompressed, but I have to mention the WAV part of your statement as total insanity. WAVs are not lossless, they are uncompressed, hence they are exactly the same as the original file at all times. If you're hearing a difference then there is something wrong with the way your system is treating them or there is something wrong with the way you are convincing yourself that you're hearing it.

I can tell some compressed formats from CD, but 320kbps (which is what Spotify use AFAIK) sound great on the Resonessence Invica and a pair of Sennheiser HD800's. At no point did I think that I must go find the uncompressed version, in fact I noticed no difference between the ones I did have lossless files for anyway and if that equipment doesn't show it up I don't know what will. I generally rip all my CDs as lossless anyway, but I'm not convinced that I need to for any other reasons than re-convertion, future proofing and editing.

 

[Pete68]

From what I've read almost every DAC under a grand gives the same results with a handful of exceptions.

 

[Overdose]

There is an entirely acheivable benchmark for digital sources and this is audible transparency, as I have already mentioned, this can be acheived at £100 and lower, as well as something like the Benchmark DAC1 at something like £1000.

Every DAC acheiving this standard will sound the same, you just choose the additional functions and the box it comes in.