Distortion is the enemy

[steve_1979]

I'd rather have a 'honest' system than one that smooths over the nasties. That said, one needs to draw the line and find that "ideal" compromise.

This is an issue that I've found with accurate and neutral sounding systems too. Well recorded music sounds great but with badly mastered rock and pop which has too much treble I prefer a warmer and less detailed sound to compentsate for the bad quality recording.

I've now taken to reducing the treble on my computers graphic equalizer by 1.5dB. Good quality well mastered music still sounds better with the graphic equalizer switched off though. Unfortunatly I listen to a lot rock and pop music and reducing the treble a fraction seems like the best comprimise overall. I think that I might start using iTunes as my music player in the future because it allows you to preset different graphic equalizer settings for each track individually which would give me the best of both worlds. I just have to get around to actually bother doing it sometime.

 

[CnoEvil]

For example, I have never got on with modern Linn amps, which I had always found a bit cold, unemotional and analytical....but I have had to have a rethink, since I have heard them with Kef R Series. So dramatic has my change in attitude been, that I could happily live with this combination.

Hi CnE

You forgot to mention the cables that were used

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

(Linn Blacks + K20 or some decent install copper stuff from a reel)

 

[CnoEvil]

IME (forgetting science and measurements etc.) the most accurate, undestorted and neutral sounding systems are also the ones which sound the nicest. I appreciate that many people seem to prefer a slightly warmer sounding presentation and I agree that a warmer sounding system can sound very pleasent even if it does rob the music of some of its 'sparkle and emotion'.

Have you ever heard an Audio Note system?

 

[steve_1979]

IME (forgetting science and measurements etc.) the most accurate, undestorted and neutral sounding systems are also the ones which sound the nicest. I appreciate that many people seem to prefer a slightly warmer sounding presentation and I agree that a warmer sounding system can sound very pleasent even if it does rob the music of some of its 'sparkle and emotion'.

Have you ever heard an Audio Note system?

No I've never come across Audio Note before. Visually they look a bit '1970's' for my taste. I'd like to have a listen to them if ever I get a chance though.

 

[drummerman]

I think that I might start using iTunes as my music player in the future because it allows you to preset different graphic equalizer settings for each track individually which would give me the best of both worlds. I just have to get around to actually bother doing it sometime.

Wow, that seems like a sure way to take the enjoyment out of music.

I get no satisfaction by saying this or trying to rub it in (I had systems which didn't please me 'musically') but I got no such problems now. Whether mine are just fairly well balanced or because my hearing is not what it used to be, old age n'all that.

I do think though that many modern systems are rather upfront and 'explicit', especially speakers. The 'secret' is to get a balance which allows you to get access to the music and pleasure from it, never mind acurate, which on its own is worth nothing if you dont enjoy it most of the time, unless you happen to be a pro and in the business of having to mix audiophile tracks for a living.

regards

 

[CnoEvil]

No I've never come across Audio Note before. Visually they look a bit '1970's' for my taste. I'd like to have a listen to them if ever I get a chance though.

Visually they look like some ham fisted amateur was let loose in his man-shed......but if musical communication, and connection with the artist is what you're after, there is little better (imo)......just don't go by the measurements.

 

[steve_1979]

Wow, that seems like a shure way to take the enjoyment out of music...

Not at all. Using my Neutrons with the treble set to -1.5dB gives a good balance for all types of music and it sounds very enjoyable this way. But by using iTunes I can have the graphic equalizer switched off for the well recorded music which sounds best that way but it will automatically reduce the treble by -1.5dB for the rock and pop albums which have been mixed with too much treble on the recording.

At the moment if I want to switch the graphic equalizer on or off I have to do it manually which is a hassle when listening to music on 'random' which I often do. iTunes doing it automatically for me will only increase the enjoyment of music not reduce it.

I just need to get around to setting up iTunes so that it knows which albums I prefer with graphic equalization switched off and which albums I prefer with graphic equalization switched on.

:type:

 

[Thompsonuxb]

distortion works for me.....

mainly when driving or if I'm out in da club, but it depends on the music.

my set is never pushed to distortion it is pushed loud but the amp controls the speakers well, saying that poor recordings are played at moderate levels and very rarely played when I'm actually sat down listening.

I'm always amused by posters who feel a need to dictate how music is supposed to sound, like in this thread - 'its supposed to......blah blah blah' to me its about mood at the time, nothing wrong with a little distortion.....

 

[gramps23]

I hope that this will be regarded as being in keeping with the rest of the thread!

I've been involved with pro-audio, and in particular loudspeaker design, for some time. As with any form of design, there are compromises to be made, and in the PA world the most compromised quality seems to be sound, as there's so much else to take into consideration. Most PA systems are awful, IMO, and need some serious tinkering with even to get to a level thats not unkind to your ears, let alone sounding good. Obviously, some of the high-end manufacturers are producing great sounding kit, but it's stupidly expensive. DIY gear can sound awesome, and is relatively cost effective, but not easy to produce for large scale use.

Anyway.. Last year a friend and I came accross a type of bass enclosure, known as a Tapped Horn. Tapped horns work on a similar principal to Transmission Lines, but the drive unit is placed firing into the throat of the horn, with the rear facing into the mouth. It's a very efficient way of loading a low frequency cabinet, with the energy from the front of the driver increasing in gain as it travels through the path of a folded horn, and coupling with the energy from the rear of the driver as it exits (at 1/4 wavelength). Also, the energy from the rear of the driver travels back through the horn and is met by the energy from drivers next forward excusion, which it couples with under compression (at 1/2 wavelength), and produces more gain. Awesome!

Contd on next page due to spam filter...

 

[gramps23]

With a tapped horn, most of the audible group delay corresponds to the length of the horn and placement of the driver. With the driver placed both at the beginning and end of the horn, the group delay occurs at harmonics (exact octaves) of the fundamental frequency and in phase with the drivers output (so at 1/4 wavelength, 1/2 wavength etc. in decreasing increments as the frequency rises). To the ear, harmonics are, by and large, perceived as an increase in loudness, and add what I'd describe as a warmth to the sound.

 

[gramps23]

Sorry... had massive problems with the spam filter and verification words. AAAARGH!

 

[CnoEvil]

Sorry... had massive problems with the spam filter and verification words. AAAARGH!

Ask mods to make you legit.

 

[MUSICRAFT]

Discuss...

Hi steve_1979

ATC also think so. A White Paper on Hysteresis -

http://www.tagnz.co.nz/uploads/pdf/Super_Linear_Technical_White_Paper.pdf

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

 

[plastic penguin]

I'd rather have a 'honest' system than one that smooths over the nasties. That said, one needs to draw the line and find that "ideal" compromise.

This is an issue that I've found with accurate and neutral sounding systems too. Well recorded music sounds great but with badly mastered rock and pop which has too much treble I prefer a warmer and less detailed sound to compentsate for the bad quality recording.

I've now taken to reducing the treble on my computers graphic equalizer by 1.5dB. Good quality well mastered music still sounds better with the graphic equalizer switched off though. Unfortunatly I listen to a lot rock and pop music and reducing the treble a fraction seems like the best comprimise overall. I think that I might start using iTunes as my music player in the future because it allows you to preset different graphic equalizer settings for each track individually which would give me the best of both worlds. I just have to get around to actually bother doing it sometime.

Most of 70s rock stuff sounds fine, including a lot of remastered recordings. However a couple of box sets (Simon and Garfunkel) is over compressed by the sound of it and it sounds dreadful. Yup, too much treble and just sounds detached. Nasty.

But... that is very much the minority.

 

[busb]

Sorry... had massive problems with the spam filter and verification words. AAAARGH!

Interesting piece. This reminds of a top end optical company wanting to sell projectors. They took a fairly cheap competitor's model as a basis for improvement. They designed a better lens. When they came to test the prototype - it was worse! They naturally investigated why to find the cheap model's lens wasn't as simple as initially thought - when a transparency heats up, it suddenly bows & throws out focus - the cheap projector's moulded plastic lens was apherical (or one element was) but measured poorly on its own but was well suited for bowed transparencies. The moral being that you need to know what measurements to make, what results are important & which ones ain't.

 

[gramps23]

We built 4 SS-15 tapped horns last year, which are compact single 15" cabs, and loaded them with some pretty tasty drivers. To say they go loud is a bit of an understatement! With a healthy 600w into each of them and some home made mid-tops with 700w each, they produced higher SPLs than some much larger/expensive pro sound systems that we encountered at festivals over the summer. The big surprise was just how good they sound. Now, they are by no means the least distorted boxes in the world, but they sound lovely (many people were commenting on not only how loud the system was in relation to the others, but on the sound quality), which is down to their group delay (time distortion vs frequency) characteristics, which effect all loudspeakers, apart from sealed boxes.

 

[gramps23]

With other designs, group delay is not necessarily such a good thing. In reflex loaded designs, for instance, the output of the port comes out in phase with that of the driver, but half a wavelength behind. So, if the system is active at 30hz, which has a wavelength of ~36ft, the output of the port will be ~16ms behind that of the driver, which in theory is perceivable by the human ear, and could lead to the the beginning and end of deep bass notes being slightly blurred, as the output of the port is both out of phase and at a different frequency to the driver (unless the next note is at the same frequency). I guess that the effect of any room, apart from an anechoic chamber, will make that pretty unnoticeable, but it'll still be there!

What I'm leading to I guess, after all that blathering, is that distortion can be good, or bad - it just depends on what your ears make of it.