Diminishing Returns.

[idc]

£30-500 midi systems 10-40%

£300-£1000 midi/designer systems 30-70%

£750 -£10,000 designer systems 40-90%

£250-£600 CDP/amp/speakers 30-70%

£400-£1000 CDP/amp/speakers 40-80%

£1000-£5000 CDP/amp/speakers 60-95%

£5000+ CDP/amp/speakers 70-99%

£30-£200 ipod dock systems 10-40%

£200+ ipod dock systems 35-50%

£500-£1000 PC/DAC/speakers 70-90%

£1000+ PC/DAC/speakers 70-99%

Notes -

By a midi system I mean the rubbish you find at work. A designer system is more likely to be found at home and it goes up to the likes of B&O systems.

For PC systems I am including the price of the PC and I think you get more bang for your buck with a PC based system.

If you change any speakers for headphones you can add another 10% as you get more bang for your buck with headphones. If you change CDP to vinyl also add 10%. But that cannot get you any higher than the best rated setups which are £5000+ CDP based and £1000+ PC based systems.

I think that ranges of percentage more accurately reflect how diminishing returns and the minimum and maximum possible sound quality, are achievable with different systems.

 

[Craig M.]

the record spot:This assumes you go down the route of thought that says the only way to improve is to spend more. I'm not hugely convinced of that to be fair - speaker positioning, understanding the sound you like and the purchases you make based around that are but two examples. [/url]

i made my point assuming that speaker positioning, understanding the sound you like, etc was nailed down, and also based on buying new kit.

 

[Anonymous]

She thinks I am nuts spending thousands on some boxes that make some noise.... At least she did notice the difference when I put the cyrus and spendor gear in the bedroom, and the leema and rega down in the lounge.

Her words were " those speakers are bigger and a different colour, can't we paint them darker"... My words were " go forth and muliply very quickly"

 

[the record spot]

idc:

£30-500 midi systems 10-40%

£300-£1000 midi/designer systems 30-70%

£750 -£10,000 designer systems 40-90%

£250-£600 CDP/amp/speakers 30-70%

£400-£1000 CDP/amp/speakers 40-80%

£1000-£5000 CDP/amp/speakers 60-95%

£5000+ CDP/amp/speakers 70-99%

£30-£200 ipod dock systems 10-40%

£200+ ipod dock systems 35-50%

£500-£1000 PC/DAC/speakers 70-90%

£1000+ PC/DAC/speakers 70-99%

Notes -

By a midi system I mean the rubbish you find at work. A designer system is more likely to be found at home and it goes up to the likes of B&O systems.

For PC systems I am including the price of the PC and I think you get more bang for your buck with a PC based system.

If you change any speakers for headphones you can add another 10% as you get more bang for your buck with headphones. But that cannot get you any higher than the best rated setups which are £5000+ CDP based and £1000+ PC based systems.

I think that ranges of percentage more accurately reflect how diminishing returns and the minimum and maximum possible sound quality, are achievable with different systems.

And if you listen badly mastered and poorly produced stuff, you've wasted a fortune potentially.

So, what happens if you've spent £900 on a pair of Acoustic Energy AE22 Actives, Stello's SA100 DAC at £750, a laptop running a music facility of your choice (iTunes, FLAC, Apple Lossless, whatever) at £500 or so. Just over £2k and it'll handsomely tan the high ticket stuff by a mile. Where does the ranking come then?

Not being antagonistic here I should add - it's just that the traditional means of apportioning spend are ever more vague as time and technology advance. You don't need to spend that £2k either - get the M-Audio Transit DAC/ADC at £55 and you have another option to play with.

Suddenly Naim and Cyrus - and a bunch of others out there - have a bit of catching up to do. People are becoming more aware that there aren't really any major advances in amps and CDP's at all at the moment, come and hear my system if you want proof of that. 33 year old amp, 15 year old speakers and a 2 year old CDP.

Cyrus brought out a new kind of drive loading mechanism that ate some discs and didn't work with others, yet wanted you to shell out £1000 for it? Hello?! Somebody mentioned the dcs Scarlatti at £33k. Well, yes, I'd love to hear it, but I've seen one and it's a behemoth - how good is it exactly though. When you partner it with speakers and an amp, does it deliver £50k's worth of sound that a £1500 or £2000 system wouldn't? I greatly doubt it.

 

[Andrew Everard]

Grottyash:£1000 = 5%
AVI ADM9.1 = 98%

£2000 =.01%

£5000 = .01%

At least, assuming one believes the hyperbole currently spinning round the internet!

Another one of those intriguing first posts. Did anyone ask about specific products?

 

[Andrew Everard]

RMutt:P.S. What about you What Hi-Fi people!

I think if you wanted to plot a graph where y equalled the percentage of improvement in performance (however one measures that!) and x the percentage of increased spend, then y=(log)x would just about give you the right shape of curve

 

[JoelSim]

Andrew Everard:Grottyash:£1000 = 5%

AVI ADM9.1 = 98%

£2000 =.01%

£5000 = .01%

At least, assuming one believes the hyperbole currently spinning round the internet!

Another one of those intriguing first posts. Did anyone ask about specific products?

Welcome back Ashley.

 

[Andrew Everard]

JoelSim:Welcome back Ashley.

Or maybe just 'Hi, Jack'...

 

[Anonymous]

Has anyone had alot of experience with bass traps and other room acoustic modifying type things?

I remember seeing a site where a guy knocked one up from loft insulation, a few planks of wood and some thin mesh fabric for about £30 each. Aparently very good for soaking up the room resonances and a damn sight cheaper than a new bit of kit, look kinda cool too and you can spray them a colour to keep the missus happy. Plus a interesting sunday DIY project.

 

[Anonymous]

potboyslim:

She thinks I am nuts spending thousands on some boxes that make some noise.... At least she did notice the difference when I put the cyrus and spendor gear in the bedroom, and the leema and rega down in the lounge.

Her words were " those speakers are bigger and a different colour, can't we paint them darker"... My words were " go forth and muliply very quickly"

hurray ....lets come round yours and have a Leema Painting party........

I only have one rule and that is " you lot can destroy everything else in the house, just mind the speakers and Bruichladdich.....or something"

 

[idc]

the record spot:idc:

£1000+ PC/DAC/speakers 70-99%

...... And if you listen badly mastered and poorly produced stuff, you've wasted a fortune potentially. So, what happens if you've spent £900 on a pair of Acoustic Energy AE22 Actives, Stello's SA100 DAC at £750, a laptop running a music facility of your choice (iTunes, FLAC, Apple Lossless, whatever) at £500 or so. Just over £2k and it'll handsomely tan the high ticket stuff by a mile. Where does the ranking come then? .....

Badly mastered stuff is not the issue here.

Your example of a £1000+ PC based system is a contender for a 99% rating, along with high end CDP and vinyl based sytems £5000+, my ranking works with that example.

 

[the record spot]

I know, I just don't believe it's as straightforward as a ranking list anymore. A £5k CDP based system...I'd need some hefty convincing that set-up would deliver, however, it's all subjective in any case in the end.

 

[drummerman]

All very interesting this percentage thing but that is assuming that everyone knows what a system that gets it right 100% actually sounds like. Me not think so and me not know so either ...

 

[Gwyndy]

This is a bit subjective really, what do you use as a 100% baseline?, there are some very expensive systems out there and if even if you spent £100,000 you could get two systems that sound totally different.

I have two different systems at home, I enjoy the sound from both, but I couldn't state that 1 gives me x percent of the sound quality of the other because it cost less.

 

[idc]

I would not rate any system as 100%, sound quality is too subjective for that. I do think it is clear that some types of system offer far greater sound quality than others and have diminishing returns at different rates than others.

A CDP/amp/speaker system is possible (new) from £250 to £250,000 odd, so it should have the biggest range of possible % for diminishing returns.

 

[JoelSim]

the record spot:I know, I just don't believe it's as straightforward as a ranking list anymore. A £5k CDP based system...I'd need some hefty convincing that set-up would deliver, however, it's all subjective in any case in the end.

It is subjective as my CDP delivers better than my MacBook Air + Airport Express combo on Apple Lossless, even when they are played through the DAC on my CDP. The latter is not as warm or involving as the former, the latter is more hifi sounding rather than real.

 

[Anonymous]

[*]I might have to start this post again with hard drive as source! I always knew it would be subjective but I suppose I was looking for a real world price point (something I might aim for) beyond which I would be throwing my money away. My 100% sound quality point was really a generalisation for the sound I imagined top end equipment might give having never heard any. It looks like hard drive is maybe going to be the best value sound per pound and this time the argument is between two digital sources not like the old CD versus turntable argument.Fascinating stuff!

 

[staggerlee]

Surely it depends on the products rather than the cost itself. For example the naim 500 series amp at 15k plus is much better than their entry level amp, similarly heir cd555 is better than the cd5i. Whether the cost justifies the perceived % increase in sound quality is a personal decision.

If you won the euro lottery tonight would you buy a £1000 system or £100,000 ? even if you knew that you may get a 10% increase in sound quality - whatever that means.

 

[the record spot]

Good question, if it meant that the £100k system was in part affected by the marque on the front, then I might be looking at good alternatives at a substantially lower price. As ever, a high ticket price means as much design statement (and at that price, moreso I suspect) as an audio one.

 

[JoelSim]

No system, no matter how much money spent is going to sound like Tracy Chapman or Roberta Flack singing just in front of your fireplace. Period. (Forgive me for the Americanism please, I know it's ugly).

 

[John Duncan]

idc:By a midi system I mean the rubbish you find at work

ahem

 

[JoelSim]

JohnDuncan:idc:By a midi system I mean the rubbish you find at workahem

Pop it in the Aston and make a quick getaway.

Ahhh, Pusshy Galore, I musht be dreaming.

 

[shooter]

RMutt:
Having only ever used budget equipment, I wonder about more expensive equipment and in particular, what quality of sound one gets at what price point. This is compounded by the problem that unless one is serious about buying equipment from a shop one is not afforded the luxury of sitting around all day listening to their gear. I literally don't know how good it might sound!

So would someone with experience like to take a stab at the following problem:

Assuming there is diminishing returns i.e. one perhaps gets 90% of ultimate sound at, plucking an amount from my head, £2000 for C.D., amp and speakers and thereafter pay ever larger amounts gaining the last few percent of sound quality. What might the various price point/percentages be?

e.g. £1000/50% £2000/90% £10,000/95% etc.

I know it's subjective and possibly a little mad, but would anyone like to have a go?

Not sure where the tipping point is financially regarding sound quality but in my experience in low/hi-fi which span's 30 years there are markable jumps in sound quality up to 25k which is were i am now. It seems the more money you spend the less electronic everything sounds. The instruments sound as they should, as if they are in the room with you. There's more air and space to the sound, the 'sound stage' is bigger and more defined with the instruments taking their place and vocals taking centre. Leading edges on vocal's and instruments flow better and don't sound forced. Everything sound's real. Obviously this presentation comes with a price but i cant say for sure where the tipping point is financially. It is true that the more you spend it's more about refining the sound you tend to tweak the system through various components i.e phono stages, cartridges, cabling, isolation platform,s etc. Tweaking to find the sound you want instead of upgrading seem's to be the path when you are happy. There are item's in my system now i could change which would make difference's like the solid state amp which i could go down the pre/power route but it would have to be exceptional like the McIntosh that would come at around 20k to benefit. I don't think the difference's would be huge. The low's maybe even more defined the midrange more liquid the high's more transient. Those price's are beyond my circumstance's but not somebody else's that's where the tipping point move's.
Upgrade through your life and enjoy all that you hear and bye but never look back.

 

[idc]

JohnDuncan:idc:By a midi system I mean the rubbish you find at work ahem

Every office I have ever worked in has had the cheapest of tinny little midi systems. I am sure many have experience of such and one of the few exceptions would be What Hifi, obviously.