Denton 85th.. a better LS3/5A?

[AJM1981]

Denton users? What are your impressions?

I have used the search function and maybe there is a topic somewhere, but I could't find any centered around the Denton 85th Anniversary. P. s. Users of the 80th,feel free to join as well

It was not till recently that things connected. Over time in both hifi and audio producing I became a silent fan of the BBC's Ls3/5a.

As much as I like these classic models, I have been doubting about a second hand pair. I am not that much into that market when it comes to higly overpriced decades old loudspeakers.

This is why I am not a fan of the price jackings of the past decade(s) on the originals. They should be 100 to 150 per pair fun max. .There should be second hand stores full of them. Unfortunately they are treated like gold.

And I would certainly not become a "4000 euro per pair" fan of the uncanny modern versions like the Rogers Ls3/5A

Rogers was one of the original manufacturers and here are "new ones" I mentioned. This pair would probably not exist if they would have not a chance to cash in on the antique market and the cult status of the classic. They are as loyal to the original as possible including the unfriendly prehistoric way the grilles should be placed and ripped off and the shiny plastic front hidint behind. With the difference being that they chose an exclusive type of wood.

In comes the Wharfedale Denton 85th Anniversary (of which 10 attemps to post different pictures of it here failed)

There is no disagreement in reviews about its quality. It is by objective judgement an LS3/5A inspired loudspeaker that is designed with the standards of 2022 in mind soundwise. Making it an modern gem already. Also takes modern grilles attachment into account.

It has the same warmth and same quirk in sound improvements, as in that it performs a bit better with the grilles on. This is caused by the tweeter and woofer that are placed slightly in depth behind the edges of the cabinet. With the grilles kind of functioning as a corrector. Same as with the Lintons which are basically the giant version.

The Dentons came with an introduction price of 750 euro which currently ranges between 599 and 650 Euro in retail.

Last friday I made up my mind and might have set the bargain record for a brand new pair after a little negotiation.

With that and owning the Evo 4.2 and with the Dentons on their way, I will wrap up my quest for a second pair for decades to come and maybe till I am old and still not wise.

 

[plastic penguin]

Couldn't tell you. I briefly owned the Denton 80th version and they are fine, especially based on the used market costs, but they are far from what one would class as all-rounders.

As regards my opinion is these so-called BBC replicas are vastly over priced, if they are anything like Harbeth P3s.

 

[AJM1981]

Couldn't tell you. I briefly owned the Denton 80th version and they are fine, especially based on the used market costs, but they are far from what one would class as all-rounders.

As regards my opinion is these so-called BBC replicas are vastly over priced, if they are anything like Harbeth P3s.

Agree. If any previous century type of bookshelf speaker gets a modern copy without any improvements (not mentioning all modern versions as entities on their own) I would not like to pay a grand price. As if only it was for the reason that the original classic models might gain market value but the remakes might free fall at some point. I think this Rogers model could profit from more exposure and sales if they would stay at least under a 1000 euros. The BBC speakers were perfect for their time in small spaces like TV vans as they were designed for, they perform ok as hifi speaker but were not made with a living room in mind. Even modern monitors do much better in broader spaces. That is why a re-imagined model is more welcome. Kef kind of does it with the futuristic Ls50 and Wharfedale with the modern Dentons.

 

[WayneKerr]

The only way you will ever find out is to compare the Denton's with a current "BBC monitor" iteration. My money would be on the monitor coming out on top. It certainly wouldn't be 4x better but then "better" is in the ear of the beholder.

I own a pair of Harbeth P3's and have been completely blown away by them but would agree with PP that the prices of these BBC based speakers are now out of reach for the average man in the street.

I do remember PP didn't take to his set of Denton's at all and quickly sold them on.

 

[AJM1981]

The only way you will ever find out is to compare the Denton's with a current "BBC monitor" iteration. My money would be on the monitor coming out on top.

Depending on what it should qualify for. Hifi setups or monitors. The modern Dentons are indeed not allround in performance. They are not monitors and have a signature to them. When it comes to allround, Wharfedale's Diamond 12 series would probably more be there, but for mixing I might leave them for dedicated monitors.

The LS3/5a's on their own as a small space monitor are great because they were developed with those small spaces in mind according to what I have read about this subject. Mentioned the TV vans already, it is where they did much better then anything else around those days and set a bar. It is also where the myth comes from that studio monitors are only for near field, because the Ls3/5a was dedicated to that. Anything large in a small van would not really do it and the stiff casing had to assure that not much of the surrounding space would be in the way of the ones dealing with the audio.

Both are different speakers, the market contains many 'inspired by' models and the Ls3/5a is more of the root at which new approaches and ideas derived from. They also perform well for hifi but seem to have their shortcomings in reviews when it comes to living room performance. This is not a problem. A sub will for example extend bass handling but this is again because the design choices were tailored around what problems should be tackled.

I own a pair of Harbeth P3's and have been completely blown away by them but would agree with PP that the prices of these BBC based speakers are now out of reach for the average man in the street.

I do remember PP didn't take to his set of Denton's at all and quickly sold them on.

They look awesome but don't have any experience with them. Curious about it, how would you describe their performance?

 

[AJM1981]

Searching for the Ls3/5a the market kind of overflowed google with these new models and people who rebuild the Ls3/5a for themselves (blue prints should be available).

But I found a piece of history worth sharing.

 

[nopiano]

The new Dentons look nicely finished for folks who prefer furniture appearance to ‘space age’, but my perception of the Denton and to a lesser extent the Wharfedale ‘brand’ is forever tainted by the awful budget boxes like the Linton and Denton 2XP of the late 1970s. I know they sold by the shedload with BSR record decks, Goldring cartridges and Trio or Teleton amplifiers in the glory days of Tottenham Court Road (Laskys, Comet etc) but I hated them!

Current Diamonds and Evo ranges seem excellent, and the heritage Lintons look like budget Harbeth, so maybe the Denton is now decent too.

 

[WayneKerr]

Depending on what it should qualify for. Hifi setups or monitors. The modern Dentons are indeed not allround in performance. They are not monitors and have a signature to them. When it comes to allround, Wharfedale's Diamond 12 series would probably more be there, but for mixing I might leave them for dedicated monitors.

The LS3/5a's on their own as a small space monitor are great because they were developed with those small spaces in mind according to what I have read about this subject. Mentioned the TV vans already, it is where they did much better then anything else around those days and set a bar. It is also where the myth comes from that studio monitors are only for near field, because the Ls3/5a was dedicated to that. Anything large in a small van would not really do it and the stiff casing had to assure that not much of the surrounding space would be in the way of the ones dealing with the audio.

Both are different speakers, the market contains many 'inspired by' models and the Ls3/5a is more of the root at which new approaches and ideas derived from. They also perform well for hifi but seem to have their shortcomings in reviews when it comes to living room performance. This is not a problem. A sub will for example extend bass handling but this is again because the design choices were tailored around what problems should be tackled.

They look awesome but don't have any experience with them. Curious about it, how would you describe their performance?

I agree that the "monitor" tag is misleading as they perform exceptionally well in a small living room space. Their only weakness is in the bass department, however, I have mine very close to the wall and find bass reproduction enough for my needs without the need for a subwoofer.

On the whole the P3's are undoubtedly the best speaker I have ever heard on the end of my system. Their ability to reproduce the human voice is natural and, at times, breathtaking. They also image far better than any other speaker I have owned. As above, the bass may be lacking due to cabinet size but I'm not complaining as they do everything else so well. My own personal view is that these speakers can be outstanding in the right system.

With other "ported" speakers I have owned I have always had issues with bass boom at higher volumes, not so with these sealed boxes. Many do not like the aesthetics with exposed screw heads... I don't look at my speakers I listen to them

 

[nopiano]

Searching for the Ls3/5a the market kind of overflowed google with these new models and people who rebuild the Ls3/5a for themselves (blue prints should be available).

But I found a piece of history worth sharing.

It’s the weedy power handling that was the issue back in the day. Warped records and a decent amp sent the cones crashing into their end stops, accompanied by cracking noises. Doubtless far more suited to today’s clean digital sources.

 

[nopiano]

I agree that the "monitor" tag is misleading as they perform exceptionally well in a small living room system. Their only weakness is in the bass department, however, I have mine very close to the wall and find bass reproduction enough for my needs without the need for a subwoofer.

On the whole the P3's are undoubtedly the best speaker I have ever heard on the end of my system. Their ability to reproduce the human voice is natural and, at times, breathtaking. They also image far better than any other speaker I have owned. As above, the bass may be lacking due to cabinet size but I'm not complaining as they do everything else so well. My own personal view is that these speakers can be outstanding in the right system.

With other "ported" speakers I have owned I have always had issues with bass boom at higher volumes, not so with these sealed boxes. Many do not like the aesthetics with exposed screw heads... I don't look at my speakers I listen to them

And Harbeth want you to listen with grilles on, as that’s how they’re balanced, isn’t it?

 

[WayneKerr]

And Harbeth want you to listen with grilles on, as that’s how they’re balanced, isn’t it?

Yes. I've only had the grilles off mine once and that was to admire the screws

 

[AJM1981]

The new Dentons look nicely finished for folks who prefer furniture appearance to ‘space age’, but my perception of the Denton and to a lesser extent the Wharfedale ‘brand’ is forever tainted by the awful budget boxes like the Linton and Denton 2XP of the late 1970s. I know they sold by the shedload with BSR record decks, Goldring cartridges and Trio or Teleton amplifiers in the glory days of Tottenham Court Road (Laskys, Comet etc) but I hated them!

Current Diamonds and Evo ranges seem excellent, and the heritage Lintons look like budget Harbeth, so maybe the Denton is now decent too.

Can imagine. I don't have any experience with historical Wharfedales but read a user review describing the Denton 2xp as listening with his head under a pillow. Would have left those far away those days.

Many older consumer speakers brought similar experiences. The will to deliver amazing stuff for a reasonable price,even though it might have been possible and there might have been some exceptions, was not much of a goal back then. More cash meant more experience and exclusivity. Probably more in agreements and as a marketing choice than a technological challenge.

 

[plastic penguin]

The only way you will ever find out is to compare the Denton's with a current "BBC monitor" iteration. My money would be on the monitor coming out on top. It certainly wouldn't be 4x better but then "better" is in the ear of the beholder.

I own a pair of Harbeth P3's and have been completely blown away by them but would agree with PP that the prices of these BBC based speakers are now out of reach for the average man in the street.

I do remember PP didn't take to his set of Denton's at all and quickly sold them on.

Yes, you are right, I was disappointed by the Denton performance. Some sonic traits were fine, while others left me scratching my head.
Regarding the Harbeths P3s they sounded impressive. I said that from day one & my views haven't changed.... but are they worth £2600 new? IMO no, after demoing Amphion Argon 1 (£1200) and my Dalis (£1800), which are similar size.

BTW, if I want to look at screws I'll go to the ironmongers 😋

 

[skinnypuppy71]

I'd really like to get a listen to the proAc tablette 10 signature. Just not sure if it'd be more a sideways step to my pmc's than a upgrade.....but they're a lovely looking speaker in that Ebony finish.

 

[AJM1981]

Yes, you are right, I was disappointed by the Denton performance. Some sonic traits were fine, while others left me scratching my head.
Regarding the Harbeths P3s they sounded impressive. I said that from day one & my views haven't changed.... but are they worth £2600 new? IMO no, after demoing Amphion Argon 1 (£1200) and my Dalis (£1800), which are similar size.

BTW, if I want to look at screws I'll go to the ironmongers 😋

Did you try the Denton 80 or the 85?

 

[nopiano]

I'd really like to get a listen to the proAc tablette 10 signature. Just not sure if it'd be more a sideways step to my pmc's than a upgrade.....but they're a lovely looking speaker in that Ebony finish.

I suspect the same but different, in that both are sparkling performers with that sharp imaging that small boxes deliver. It’s a while since I heard the pre-signature Tablette but they were full of life. And in the right system, so were the original twenty series PMCs.

 

[plastic penguin]

Did you try the Denton 80 or the 85?

Purchased the 80th version, not heard the 85th as I mentioned in my original response.

Loved the retro look but didn't have a particularly retro sound: very modern and detailed but found some vocals was a little shrill, even compared to my old RS6s.

 

[Gray]

I'd really like to get a listen to the proAc tablette 10 signature.

So would I.
I briefly owned the Tablette Ref 8, which were great - apart from the rear port, which was no good in my situation.
I would expect a different type of bass to the 20.21 (which I too currently own) but the rest of the frequencies are at least, if not more important to me......and the little PMCs don't do a bad job of those (as you know).

Would be an interesting comparison and, you can bet, a case of 'swings and roundabouts'.

 

[skinnypuppy71]

So would I.
I briefly owned the Tablette Ref 8, which were great - apart from the rear port, which was no good in my situation.
I would expect a different type of bass to the 20.21 (which I too currently own) but the rest of the frequencies are at least, if not more important to me......and the little PMCs don't do a bad job of those (as you know).

Would be an interesting comparison and, you can bet, a case of 'swings and roundabouts'.

Sometimes we just change stuff for changes sake I think, I've had my pmc's around 6 years now, that's a while...for me..lol. Nothing wrong with the sound at all, In fact there's a Anne Bisson track "September in Montreal" oooohhh the sound that song makes through the pmc's is stunning......the little rel also brings much to the sound.....sorry for going off topic guys.

 

[robdmarsh]

I had the Denton 80th for about a week. I fell for the look and what I was reading about them. They sounded, to put it mildly, unexceptional, and not as good as my then Elac debut b5, in fact not nearly as good. Unless someone tells me that they suddenly come alive after 300 hours, I would be wary of getting into the Wharfedale retro thing.

 

[plastic penguin]

I had the Denton 80th for about a week. I fell for the look and what I was reading about them. They sounded, to put it mildly, unexceptional, and not as good as my then Elac debut b5, in fact not nearly as good. Unless someone tells me that they suddenly come alive after 300 hours, I would be wary of getting into the Wharfedale retro thing.

Which reflects my thoughts on the Denton 80th. Little underwhelming, one of the best traits was the taut bass, contradicting WHFIs review.

 

[plastic penguin]

The new Dentons look nicely finished for folks who prefer furniture appearance to ‘space age’, but my perception of the Denton and to a lesser extent the Wharfedale ‘brand’ is forever tainted by the awful budget boxes like the Linton and Denton 2XP of the late 1970s. I know they sold by the shedload with BSR record decks, Goldring cartridges and Trio or Teleton amplifiers in the glory days of Tottenham Court Road (Laskys, Comet etc) but I hated them!

Current Diamonds and Evo ranges seem excellent, and the heritage Lintons look like budget Harbeth, so maybe the Denton is now decent too.

I liked the Linton XP2s. I used them with a Pioneer SA-706 amp, Garrard SP25 MKV table & Goldring G800 alternating with a Shure M55E carts.

 

[AJM1981]

I had the Denton 80th for about a week. I fell for the look and what I was reading about them. They sounded, to put it mildly, unexceptional, and not as good as my then Elac debut b5, in fact not nearly as good. Unless someone tells me that they suddenly come alive after 300 hours, I would be wary of getting into the Wharfedale retro thing.

The 85th seems to be a little different

from 7review
The new Denton 85th Anniversary Edition will sound lighter and brighter than the 80th, due to raised tweeter output. It has smoother bass that runs deeper and will sound controlled when close to a wall. Sensitivity is very high too. Very good, but with overly strong treble.

And read somewhere that a user found a little adjustment to it, for the ones who have a different taste

A 2 Ohm resistor to the treble unit, replacing the bi-wire positive (+) link, gave a measured flat response but a warm-ish sound, whilst a I Ohm resistor was perfect – clear treble but not overwhelming. This gave me the Denton 85th I wanted to hear and is a very simple thing to do (such a tweak can be made to any bi- wirable loudspeaker). Hi-hats didn’t overwhelm, cymbals didn’t crash harshly and rim shots were clear but not destructive; ride cymbals fell back to accompany rather than dominate."

I have to add that this might be a bit exaggerated. Take a review from Andrew Robinson who on almost weekly base reviews speakers out of higher priced classes, called it an amazing speaker (taste wise I know, but none the less a bit of an experienced listener) , not mentioning anything about it, I guess that is something in the ear of the beholder. Second thing, this might be something tested with the grilles off, adding them might do a bit better.