Denon AVRX2300 music performance

[beaker_07]

I recently purchased a Denon Avrx2300 and Monitor Audio Bronze 2 speakers.

I have noticed from I set it up at home that particularly when listening to music from my CD or blu ray player that the sound is a lot more bass than mid range and treble. I have tried listening to quite a few discs and I am finding it difficult to listen to and enjoy. I had a Marantz SR4300 and had no such problems. I set the Marantz up with the Monitor Audio speakers and the sound is well balanced so there is no problem I can see with the speakers. The strange thing to me is that the Denon amp sounds OK when watching TV, Sky or blu ray. I have checked my setup and have it set the same way as I auditioned it I know the amp and speakers will sound different at home.

Has anyone had any similar problems or any ideas of a solution? The only item that was different to the audition was that the CD's were played on a blu ray player and different speaker cable ( I have read up on speaker cable articles in the forum's and now realise that they don't make a big difference ).

 

[Nathan]

Not identical but I have the Denon AVR-X4200 and the Monitor Audio Silver 6's. I also found that the CD sound was a bit muted. Tried a few tweaks here and there and in he end I opted with feeding a stereo amp out of the pre-outs. I tried a few other AV amps as well with similar issues. Guess it's just one of those things in that no amp can do everything

 

[beaker_07]

Thanks Nathan if I understand you correctly then you have 2 amps in your system the Denon for film's etc and a separate amp for music. I didn't know that you could do that as I am quite new to all this. I t was suggested to me that I could try bi-amping the speakers to improve the detail again this is news to me and something I had never heard of before. Have you tried this as one of your tweaks and if so what are your thoughts on it?

It is interesting that you have found this problem in other av amps as well.

 

[Nathan]

Hi Beaker. I had a Pioneer amp before and had the same problem and a Denon AVR-3808 as well. Bi-amping the speakers using two outputs on the Pioneer didn't do much for the stereo sound although it have a big improvement on the 3808 - not stereo amp quality but good for an AV

So since then I bought a Denon AVR-X2200W for the 4K switching but the stereo wasn't great. The internal bi-amping did help but not massively so I decided to get a stereo amp. However the 2200 didn't have pre-outs so I swapped it in for the 4200 (thank you Richer Sounds) which has pre-outs.

So all my multi channel kit (Sky Q, blu-ray, Apple TV) connect into the 4200. I then ran phono cables from the left and right pre-outs to the line1 input on the stereo amp. Stereo sources (CD and turntable) then connect into the stereo amp. When using the stereo sources I just run the stereo amp. When I run the surround both amps are on with the stereo amp doing the L/R and the Denon doing the others. The next thing to do was to set the levels right. All you do is pick a volume level on the stereo amp that is easy to remember (50% for instance) - any will do. You then run the calibration on the AV amp and when it's done it alters output levels from the pre outs so the volume at the preset level matches the AV volumes. And you're done. You get a proper stereo sound and better LR sound on the 5.1 without having to use switches or two sets of speakers.

I did try using a spare channel on the AV to bi-amp but that didn't really help. If your stereo amp has pre outs you could connect a power amp to it to bi amp that way if you get a unit that matches the stereo amp. I haven't tried it so I don't know what the improvement would be but you are looking at paying the same out for the amp again. I'm sure there are plenty of people here who have got amp/power amp pairings - such as the the Caspian M2 integrated amp and M2 power amp

 

[beaker_07]

Thanks again Nathan for your very detailed reply. The Denon I bought was to replace an older Marantz a/v amplifier so I can't try out your suggestion I wanted one amp to do both jobs to be honest I didn't know about your solution.

 

[Nathan]

You might be a bit snookered here. The AVR-3808 did have a big improvement when you used the 6th and 7th channel surrounds to bi-amp the front speakers but the 2200 and 2300 to my ears didn't. I think that certainly for that level of AV amp it is trying to be all things to all men and can't really compare to a higher spec AV amp or a similar priced stereo amp. Also I've just realised - the 2300 doesn't have pre-outs so even if you did get a stereo amp you couldn't run the L/R as pre-outs.

Your only solution would seem to be a stereo amp with its own speakers (or a switch to go between the amps), bi-amp the L/R on the 2300 (as I said, not a great improvement) or go cap in hand to who you bought the 2300 off and change it for one with pre-outs. This is what I did and Richer Sounds gave me full credit against a 4200 which solved my problem - albeit I had to then buy the stereo amp too!

 

[Samd]

You might be a bit snookered here. The AVR-3808 did have a big improvement when you used the 6th and 7th channel surrounds to bi-amp the front speakers but the 2200 and 2300 to my ears didn't. I think that certainly for that level of AV amp it is trying to be all things to all men and can't really compare to a higher spec AV amp or a similar priced stereo amp. Also I've just realised - the 2300 doesn't have pre-outs so even if you did get a stereo amp you couldn't run the L/R as pre-outs.

Your only solution would seem to be a stereo amp with its own speakers (or a switch to go between the amps), bi-amp the L/R on the 2300 (as I said, not a great improvement) or go cap in hand to who you bought the 2300 off and change it for one with pre-outs. This is what I did and Richer Sounds gave me full credit against a 4200 which solved my problem - albeit I had to then buy the stereo amp too!

The 2300 does have pre-outs - analogue only from Zone 2

 

[emperor's new clothes]

I have no idea why, but both my previous SR7007 and the Denon sound more musical with bitstream vs pcm via HDMI and agree with above, CD is mildly disappointing considering how good everything else sounds. Playing a BluRay audio disc, they automatically output PCM 24/96 hi res and you have to access the menu to switch to DTS or Dolby HD master audio, both of which sound markedly better to my ears. SACD sounds excellent which is also bitstream for the amp to process. The UD7007 has its own DAC/analogue output, which I use for CD only and is more musical (subjectively) than PCM to the amp.

 

[beaker_07]

Thanks emperor's.. that's very interesting to know that someone else has had a similar problem. I have just got a new desktop computer and have connected it via the graphics card with a HDMI cable to the amp. I think that playing even 320 mp3's through iTunes sounds better than playing my CD's through my Marantz CD6000 OSE via either digital optical or phono leads. I'll try listening to some of my CD's played in my cheapish Panasonic blu ray player via HDMI.

Thinking back as to when I demoed the Denon amp and Monitor Audio Bronze speakers the CD's were played on a blu ray player probably connected via HDMI. I'll try a few things out before going back to the dealer I have said to them a few times that the system doesn't sound as good at home as it did in their demo room - I understand that it will sound different in another environment but I feel as if I am losing out.

Thanks again.

 

[Native_bon]

I don't get such problems with my Arcam. Of course at that price range, you not going to get very good 2 channel performance from an AV amp. Why not try a second hand Arcam Av amp, that is if you got the option of returning your current amp. You will get a much better stereo performance.

 

[beaker_07]

I would have thought that £500 would have bought an a/v amplifier that could have done a good job at playing a CD. My previous Marantz done better with CD's and it didn't cost as much. The main reason for updating it was to get a better a/v setup not get a worse stereo sound. I have yet to listen to some CD's on my blu ray player or my Xbox one that both can be connected by HDMI cable for audio.

I don't know what my options are regarding an exchange or refund yet are as I have been trying to gather as much information about this before hand. I have told the dealer a few times about my concerns and I have tried different speaker cable and setup's on the amp but to no real difference.

I think that the blu ray player that I auditioned the amp and speakers going through the HDMI cable has made the stereo performance better.

 

[Leeps]

A couple of things worth bearing in mind when comparing the sound quality from different sources through an AV receiver;

1. You always need to give thought to your source and how many channels it's playing, and what settings you're using on the AVR, which can alter the sound dramatically. So if you're comparing Bluray as a source vs. CD, then your Bluray is 5.1, likely engaging the crossover you've specified and handing all bass duties to your subwoofer. Whereas CD (or BBC stereo broadcasts on your TV) will be broadcasting stereo which probably won't be engaging your subwoofer but will be sending the stereo music full range to your left & right speakers. Having Pure Direct on one source and Direct on another source will not allow you to make like-for-like comparisons,

It does take more patience and effort to learn all the features of your AVR and you can alter the sound dramatically by tweaking the settings. Some might view this as a pain, but I find it really useful in balancing the demands of the source (whatever I happen to be playing) and the room's acoustics issues. Have you calibrated your AVR? Have you tried the different settings and spent time listening to the differences?

2. The other thing to bear in mind is that often budget to midrange AV receivers can skimp on the quality of their analogue inputs. I found CD sounded better on my AVR using the digital optical input than the CD's own DAC into the AVR's analogue inputs.

These considerations, particularly the source and AVR's settings you use with each source are important when making comparisons to ensure they're like for like.

And finally, if bass is dominating, particularly when playing a full-range signal through your main L&R speakers, it could be that the power supply isn't as oomphy in your AVR as specs suggest. You could try using a 2.1 set-up for stereo sources engaging the sub. Its own amplifier is likely a lot beefier and may be better equipped to handle low frequencies.

 

[beaker_07]

Thanks Leeps for a lot of info.

I have my CD player connected by a digital optical cable. My Blu ray player is connected by a HDMI cable as recommended by my dealer primarily to play film's. My Sky plus and Xbox one are both also connected by HDMI. The blu ray player also has a digital optical out.

i have calibrated the avr settings manually for front and centre speakers size and distance from listening position ( I do not have a sub woofer at the moment but I had intended to get one if I can sort out my bass heavy problem). I have not used the calibration device that comes with the Denon as of yet as I was recommended to set it up as I have done. As far as I know the settings are the same as I listened to during the demo.

Would it be possible to have the blu rray player connected both by HDMI and digital optical so I could listen to it in direct stereo to compare against my CD player - I don't want to have to go into the settings menu's each time I wish to listen to a disc.

Sorry if I'm making hard work out of this or doing anything wrong but this is my first attempt at proper home cinema and it's not going as easy or well as I had hoped for yet!

 

[Native_bon]

Thanks Leeps for a lot of info.

I have my CD player connected by a digital optical cable. My Blu ray player is connected by a HDMI cable as recommended by my dealer primarily to play film's. My Sky plus and Xbox one are both also connected by HDMI. The blu ray player also has a digital optical out.

i have calibrated the avr settings manually for front and centre speakers size and distance from listening position ( I do not have a sub woofer at the moment but I had intended to get one if I can sort out my bass heavy problem). I have not used the calibration device that comes with the Denon as of yet as I was recommended to set it up as I have done. As far as I know the settings are the same as I listened to during the demo.

Would it be possible to have the blu rray player connected both by HDMI and digital optical so I could listen to it in direct stereo to compare against my CD player - I don't want to have to go into the settings menu's each time I wish to listen to a disc.

Sorry if I'm making hard work out of this or doing anything wrong but this is my first attempt at proper home cinema and it's not going as easy or well as I had hoped for yet!

1) Reset your AV amp to factor settings.

2) play music from your cd player(analogue to amp) making sure pure direct on your AV amp is engaged

3)Try same with HDMI output from blu-ray player, making sure you make no adjustments to Av amp, playing evrything from flat.

4)NOTE: Digital input to your Av amp will not give up the ability to play in Pure Direct ,only analogue would. Same goes with HDMI input.

If you follow the above steps and still think it sounds bass heavy then you may need to exchange the amp for something else. I fine it contrary to the above in my experience, analogue inputs sound much better.

 

[beaker_07]

Thanks I'll try doing what you suggest.

The only settings I have changed are regarding the speaker sizes ( small as they are on stands ) and the distance from the listening position. I have not used the equaliser and the settings are flat and pure direct as far as I can see.

 

[Native_bon]

Thanks I'll try doing what you suggest.

The only settings I have changed are regarding the speaker sizes ( small as they are on stands ) and the distance from the listening position. I have not used the equaliser and the settings are flat and pure direct as far as I can see.

In the absence of a sub your mains L/R should be set to large. Also make sure the restorer is set to off when playing music from Blu-ray.

 

[beaker_07]

Thanks I'll set them back to large - oops, and the restorer is switched off.

 

[beaker_07]

Thanks I finally summoned up the courage to reset the amplifier to its factory settings and start again from scratch. The amp now sounds more like the one I auditioned and I am happy that with a few more tweaks everything will be OK. I must have made some mistake in the initial setup. This is the first time I have setup an av amp with so many settings my previous Marantz was more open the box connect up the sources and go.

I got there finally and I am happy with my purchase.

Thanks to everyone for their help.

 

[zoz1234]

Thanks I finally summoned up the courage to reset the amplifier to its factory settings and start again from scratch. The amp now sounds more like the one I auditioned and I am happy that with a few more tweaks everything will be OK. I must have made some mistake in the initial setup. This is the first time I have setup an av amp with so many settings my previous Marantz was more open the box connect up the sources and go.

I got there finally and I am happy with my purchase.

Thanks to everyone for their help.

If it makes you feel any better, I have a few years of experience setting up an AV amp, and I still hate doing it , trying to get the tweaks right so you get a sound you're happy with. Specifically, so you get a sound that doesn't make you regret upgrading from the last amp you had!! I have just bought the Denon and I aren't happy negotiating my way through the set up menus.

 

[Benedict_Arnold]

... for stereo listening.

The more bells'n'whistles they add the harder it is to figure out which bell or whistle is making the sound, erm, sound, duff. That and the fact that the audio signal has to go through a gazillion transistors and diodes and dilithium crystals and flux capacitors on the silicon chips in a receiver before it even gets to the less potent power amp sections. Go to a proper stereo amp and virtually all of those bells'n'whistles and silicon chip thingies go away. The signal (well an analogue signal anyway) goes input jacks -> preamp -> power amp -> speaker jacks

 

[zoz1234]

... for stereo listening.

The more bells'n'whistles they add the harder it is to figure out which bell or whistle is making the sound, erm, sound, duff. That and the fact that the audio signal has to go through a gazillion transistors and diodes and dilithium crystals and flux capacitors on the silicon chips in a receiver before it even gets to the less potent power amp sections. Go to a proper stereo amp and virtually all of those bells'n'whistles and silicon chip thingies go away. The signal (well an analogue signal anyway) goes input jacks -> preamp -> power amp -> speaker jacks

This is true, and the reason why I have a stand alone Hi Fi set up apart from my home cinema gear.

 

[beaker_07]

In hindsight I felt a bit stupid asking everyone for their help when in the end it was my own doing - hope you get your Denon to sound as you want - I'm still not sure I have all the video settings correct now that I think I have the audio sorted?

 

[beaker_07]

That would be the ideal solution if only space and budget allowed for it - maybe sometime in the future when I get my current setup sorted mainly for home cinema - addition of a sub woofer and possibly rear surrounds after that maybe a new cd player although I do like the conveinence of playing lossless ripped files from my desktop - maybe use the new cd player / transport for my favourite stuff??