Dali Ikon 1 Mk 2 + Yamaha A-S500 Amplifier ADVICE

alessio

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Hi

I am in the process of buying a new hi-fi system (turntable/amp/speakers) and found these two items on sale in a local shop today. There were ex-demos and still have warranty.

I have read great reviews for both products so I thought it might be worth buying them.

I wanted to check with you expert guys if:

- Are they good? Do they make a good combo?

- Are they compatible? Will they work well together?

Thanks in advance
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Alessio
 

Thompsonuxb

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Only one way to find out.

If possible go and have a listen, if generally speaking they sound fine go for it.

If you think you can do better continue the search.
 

rainsoothe

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Hi. Although I haven't heard the combo, I'm not a great fan of the Yamaha AS-500, and I think these speakers can (and should) do with a better amp (again, this is just my opinion).

First of all, though, if you can audition this combo at the place with the offer, then you really should - and if YOU enjoy it, then just go for it. Let your ears decide. Just be careful though not to let yourself be impressed by a very detailed and lively sound, only to realize later, in your home, that it gets tiresome after 40 minutes of music listening.

Secondly, if you could get a deal, then you should defenately cosinder and (audition!!!) Roksan Kandy K2, Arcam FMJ A19 and maybe a Marantz PM7005. First choice would be the Roksan though - maybe you'll find a cheap ex-dem or second hand one.
 

TrevC

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rainsoothe said:
Hi. Although I haven't heard the combo, I'm not a great fan of the Yamaha AS-500, and I think these speakers can (and should) do with a better amp (again, this is just my opinion).

First of all, though, if you can audition this combo at the place with the offer, then you really should - and if YOU enjoy it, then just go for it. Let your ears decide. Just be careful though not to let yourself be impressed by a very detailed and lively sound, only to realize later, in your home, that it gets tiresome after 40 minutes of music listening.

Secondly, if you could get a deal, then you should defenately cosinder and (audition!!!) Roksan Kandy K2, Arcam FMJ A19 and maybe a Marantz PM7005. First choice would be the Roksan though - maybe you'll find a cheap ex-dem or second hand one.

The Yamaha amp is very good. I own one, although I'm not a fan of any hifi equipment.
 

Thompsonuxb

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What speakers do you drive with it?

TrevC said:
rainsoothe said:
Hi. Although I haven't heard the combo, I'm not a great fan of the Yamaha AS-500, and I think these speakers can (and should) do with a better amp (again, this is just my opinion). ?

First of all, though, if you can audition this combo at the place with the offer, then you really should - and if YOU enjoy it, then just go for it. Let your ears decide. Just be careful though not to let yourself be impressed by a very detailed and lively sound, only to realize later, in your home, that it gets tiresome after 40 minutes of music listening.?

Secondly, if you could get a deal, then you should defenately cosinder and (audition!!!) Roksan Kandy K2, Arcam FMJ A19 and maybe a Marantz PM7005. First choice would be the Roksan though - maybe you'll find a cheap ex-dem or second hand one.

The Yamaha amp is very good. I own one, although I'm not a fan of any hifi equipment.
 

d_a_n1979

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Personally I'd stay away from the Yamaha amp... Found it to be very poor, very clinical sounding and without a great soundstage... Heard it with the Dali Lektor speakers and M/A GX speakers also with a ribbon tweeter

The Dali Icon speakers you've mentioned a great speakers and deserve much better amplification... The amps mentioned above would suit very well

Would be handy to know what your budget is and what music you listen to?

Personally I'd look at a decent 2nd hand amp (Arcam FMJ A32, Roksan Kandy K2, Cyrus 8vs2/8XP) etc...
 

TrevC

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d_a_n1979 said:
Personally I'd stay away from the Yamaha amp... Found it to be very poor, very clinical sounding and without a great soundstage... Heard it with the Dali Lektor speakers and M/A GX speakers also with a ribbon tweeter

The Dali Icon speakers you've mentioned a great speakers and deserve much better amplification... The amps mentioned above would suit very well

Would be handy to know what your budget is and what music you listen to?

Personally I'd look at a decent 2nd hand amp (Arcam FMJ A32, Roksan Kandy K2, Cyrus 8vs2/8XP) etc...

What makes you think the amplifiers above are any better? Because they cost more? The K2 only got four stars against the Yamaha's five, by the way. I listen to folk, classical, rock, country and blues. Pick me an amp! Why on earth would you buy second hand with no remote when, for similar money, you can buy new with a remote.

I've heard hundreds of SS amps over the years and realised years ago that, providing they are good quality, they invariably sound so similar they are impossible to tell apart. Which is why I advise concentrating on the sound of the speakers, which sound vastly different..
 

rainsoothe

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TrevC said:
d_a_n1979 said:
Personally I'd stay away from the Yamaha amp... Found it to be very poor, very clinical sounding and without a great soundstage... Heard it with the Dali Lektor speakers and M/A GX speakers also with a ribbon tweeter

The Dali Icon speakers you've mentioned a great speakers and deserve much better amplification... The amps mentioned above would suit very well

Would be handy to know what your budget is and what music you listen to?

Personally I'd look at a decent 2nd hand amp (Arcam FMJ A32, Roksan Kandy K2, Cyrus 8vs2/8XP) etc...

What makes you think the amplifiers above are any better? Because they cost more? The K2 only got four stars against the Yamaha's five, by the way. I listen to folk, classical, rock, country and blues. Pick me an amp! Why on earth would you buy second hand with no remote when, for similar money, you can buy new with a remote.

I've heard hundreds of SS amps over the years and realised years ago that, providing they are good quality, they invariably sound so similar they are impossible to tell apart. Which is why I advise concentrating on the sound of the speakers, which sound vastly different..

First of all, regarding your previous post, I never said the Yamaha was bad, i just said I didn't like it personally, and that HE (the OP) might enjoy it.

Secondly, no, they aren't better because they cost more, they're better because they're better - and it's generally apparent when you do A/B testing, not hearing stuff weeks apart. Also, granted, some people don't hear the difference, which is why I said "let YOUR ears decide".

Thirdly, four stars vs five stars is an irrellevant point, since it's all subjective. You might enjoy a 2 star product that I hate and hate a 5 star product that I love. Also, the ratings are taking account of the respective price bracket, so the K2 would have 4 stars (which it doesn't anyway, it's only the BT version I think) against the similarly priced Arcam FMJ A19 or whatever. It's not competing with the Yamaha.

Also, for me the Yamaha was lifeless - the Roksan has more juice and a more refined sound. Again: FOR ME! But that's why I said to the OP - AUDITION.
 

davedotco

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rainsoothe said:
TrevC said:
d_a_n1979 said:
Personally I'd stay away from the Yamaha amp... Found it to be very poor, very clinical sounding and without a great soundstage... Heard it with the Dali Lektor speakers and M/A GX speakers also with a ribbon tweeter

The Dali Icon speakers you've mentioned a great speakers and deserve much better amplification... The amps mentioned above would suit very well

Would be handy to know what your budget is and what music you listen to?

Personally I'd look at a decent 2nd hand amp (Arcam FMJ A32, Roksan Kandy K2, Cyrus 8vs2/8XP) etc...

What makes you think the amplifiers above are any better? Because they cost more? The K2 only got four stars against the Yamaha's five, by the way. I listen to folk, classical, rock, country and blues. Pick me an amp! Why on earth would you buy second hand with no remote when, for similar money, you can buy new with a remote.

I've heard hundreds of SS amps over the years and realised years ago that, providing they are good quality, they invariably sound so similar they are impossible to tell apart. Which is why I advise concentrating on the sound of the speakers, which sound vastly different..

First of all, regarding your previous post, I never said the Yamaha was bad, i just said I didn't like it personally, and that HE (the OP) might enjoy it.

Secondly, no, they aren't better because they cost more, they're better because they're better - and it's generally apparent when you do A/B testing, not hearing stuff weeks apart. Also, granted, some people don't hear the difference, which is why I said "let YOUR ears decide".

Thirdly, four stars vs five stars is an irrellevant point, since it's all subjective. You might enjoy a 2 star product that I hate and hate a 5 star product that I love. Also, the ratings are taking account of the respective price bracket, so the K2 would have 4 stars (which it doesn't anyway, it's only the BT version I think) against the similarly priced Arcam FMJ A19 or whatever. It's not competing with the Yamaha.

Also, for me the Yamaha was lifeless - the Roksan has more juice and a more refined sound. Again: FOR ME! But that's why I said to the OP - AUDITION.

TrevC is right in that in 'matched' conditions these amplifiers will sound very similar indeed, what the preference boils down to is how the amplifier and speakers are going sound in the specific setup that the OP will be using.

Things that 'technically' should not make a difference often do, the AS-500 has decent basic specs but how well will it cope with a speaker of modest sensitivily and a low nominal impedance? Does the volume control have a good range, indicating a sensible gain structure, what about input sensitivity?

All these factors can make a difference, so you need to listen and try the setup for yourself, beware of 'quick-fire' A/B tests, the loudest amplifier will always win. If you can, get the dealer to set up the two pieces and leave you alone with it for half an hour or so, play some different things and use the thing yourself, see if you enjoy what you are experiencing.
 

rainsoothe

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davedotco said:
Things that 'technically' should not make a difference often do

Yes, they do.

Also, I did compare for a week my Rotel RA 1520 with my Supernait 2, in my own home, with 2 sets of speakers I'm very used to and they sound VERY different, I don't understand how this is only a matter of volume or loudness.
 

Thompsonuxb

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What we're the differences?

rainsoothe said:
davedotco said:
Things that 'technically' should not make a difference often do

Yes, they do.

Also, I did compare for a week my Rotel RA 1520 with my Supernait 2, in my own home, with 2 sets of speakers I'm very used to and they sound VERY different, I don't understand how this is only a matter of volume or loudness.
 

davedotco

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rainsoothe said:
davedotco said:
Things that 'technically' should not make a difference often do

Yes, they do.

Also, I did compare for a week my Rotel RA 1520 with my Supernait 2, in my own home, with 2 sets of speakers I'm very used to and they sound VERY different, I don't understand how this is only a matter of volume or loudness.

Neither do I, not fully anyway. But I do understand and accept the phenomena that the brain interprets a small increase in level (0.5dB say) as 'better' in this situation, it does not hear louder but usually clearer, more detailed, firmer soundstage, all the usual hi-fi stuff in fact. It is pretty much impossible to match volume by ear, but a decent digital volt meter can be used to measure output voltage at the speaker terminals and match levels precisely.

Do this, then listen and virtually all the differences you heard before will dissapear, I have done this and many other people have done it to, it is a well known and well tried phenomena.

Notice I say 'virtually', particularly when we are talking about integrated amplifiers. Some manufacturers, even some well respected ones, will engineer into their products a sort of 'house' sound and many will attempt to manipulate you, the listener, into playing their product a tiny bit louder than the competitors product. They do this by using high sensitivity inputs, volume controls that 'get loud' very quickly and other factors such as hi-gain pre-amp sections to give their product the edge.
 

Thompsonuxb

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Permission to derail this thread....

Level matching is a nonsense in that better amps will always have to be compromised to 'entertain' the lesser amp.

Input sensitivity.....pah!

My amp does not only 'get louder' when it's turned up it separates, broadens and projects the soundstage.

For a lesser amp to be matched my amp would not be allowed to 'do its thang...' if you know what?

Turning amps down is no way to test its quality or judge it against others. but turning them up will reveal its qualitys.

davedotco said:
rainsoothe said:
davedotco said:
Things that 'technically' should not make a difference often do

Yes, they do.

Also, I did compare for a week my Rotel RA 1520 with my Supernait 2, in my own home, with 2 sets of speakers I'm very used to and they sound VERY different, I don't understand how this is only a matter of volume or loudness.

Neither do I, not fully anyway. But I do understand and accept the phenomena that the brain interprets a small increase in level (0.5dB say)  as 'better' in this situation, it does not hear louder but usually clearer, more detailed, firmer soundstage, all the usual hi-fi stuff in fact. It is pretty much impossible to match volume by ear, but a decent digital volt meter can be used to measure output voltage at the speaker terminals and match levels precisely.

Do this, then listen and virtually all the differences you heard before will dissapear, I have done this and many other people have done it to, it is a well known and well tried phenomena.

Notice I say 'virtually', particularly when we are talking about integrated amplifiers. Some manufacturers, even some well respected ones, will engineer into their products a sort of 'house' sound and many will attempt to manipulate you, the listener, into playing their product a tiny bit louder than the competitors product. They do this by using high sensitivity inputs, volume controls that 'get loud' very quickly and other factors such as hi-gain pre-amp sections to give their product the edge.
 

ID.

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TrevC said:
d_a_n1979 said:
Personally I'd stay away from the Yamaha amp... Found it to be very poor, very clinical sounding and without a great soundstage... Heard it with the Dali Lektor speakers and M/A GX speakers also with a ribbon tweeter

The Dali Icon speakers you've mentioned a great speakers and deserve much better amplification... The amps mentioned above would suit very well

Would be handy to know what your budget is and what music you listen to?

Personally I'd look at a decent 2nd hand amp (Arcam FMJ A32, Roksan Kandy K2, Cyrus 8vs2/8XP) etc...

What makes you think the amplifiers above are any better? Because they cost more? The K2 only got four stars against the Yamaha's five

Just for the record, putting aside the issue of the fact that reviews also come down to personal preferences, just like when buying one's kit, WHF rates products against others in the same price category, so you can't say that a cheaper 5 star product is better than a more expensive 4 star product. If the 4 star product had its price dropped to the same level as the 5 star product it may very well rate 5 stars and even push the rating of the other product down to 4.

Thompsonuxb said:
Permission to derail this thread....

Level matching is a nonsense in that better amps will always have to be compromised to 'entertain' the lesser amp.

Input sensitivity.....pah!

My amp does not only 'get louder' when it's turned up it separates, broadens and projects the soundstage.

Permission granted. I've always got time for a master troll to bring the LOLs :)

The effects you describe are the very things that an increase in volume changes in our perception of sound. The better, more powerful amps, will be able to go to higher volumes without distorting.

Level matching will mean that the more powerful amp won't be showing what it can do with the extra power, but it will show more accurately how close the sound is when not performing towards the extremities. Providing the lesser amp isn't too poor/wimpy, it should allow for performance at reasonable levels that will more accurately portray the sound signature.

Of course, to test the superior performance of more powerful amps you should keep the levels matched as you increase the volume and listen for which amp starts to crack.
 

rainsoothe

Well-known member
Thompsonuxb said:
What we're the differences?

rainsoothe said:
davedotco said:
Things that 'technically' should not make a difference often do

Yes, they do.

Also, I did compare for a week my Rotel RA 1520 with my Supernait 2, in my own home, with 2 sets of speakers I'm very used to and they sound VERY different, I don't understand how this is only a matter of volume or loudness.

no matter what the volume setting is, the Supernait would always sound more open, more silky and rhythm driven. Way bigger soundstage and more ethereal. In comparison, the Rotel would sound more compact, like when you make a sandwich and press the bread slices together and keep them on the bottom of your backpack for 3 hours - it tastes good, but it's like it's more like a paste instead of individual items. Actually my Yamaha HS80 monitors sound closer to the Naim then the Rotel + Martin Logan Motion 40 (although less refined).
 

davedotco

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rainsoothe said:
Thompsonuxb said:
What we're the differences?

rainsoothe said:
davedotco said:
Things that 'technically' should not make a difference often do

Yes, they do.

Also, I did compare for a week my Rotel RA 1520 with my Supernait 2, in my own home, with 2 sets of speakers I'm very used to and they sound VERY different, I don't understand how this is only a matter of volume or loudness.

no matter what the volume setting is, the Supernait would always sound more open, more silky and rhythm driven. Way bigger soundstage and more ethereal. In comparison, the Rotel would sound more compact, like when you make a sandwich and press the bread slices together and keep them on the bottom of your backpack for 3 hours - it tastes good, but it's like it's more like a paste instead of individual items. Actually my Yamaha HS80 monitors sound closer to the Naim then the Rotel + Martin Logan Motion 40 (although less refined).

It is these differences that cause confusion, the Naim still goes with the high sensitivity, high pre-amp gain model and that usually appears to give the sonic results you mention.

You may recall Vlads epic thread on the way amplifiers sound the way they do, in this instance 'overdriving' the pre-amp stage in the supernait is responsible for the 'exciting' style of presentation. This is an 'effect' and is pretty consistent across the whole Naim range, though nowhere near as pronounced as the old 'olive' series.

Now, if this makes the product sound good to you, this is fine, or is it? To be honest it appears to vary with the listener.

Some do not have any issues at all, others, myself included, hear the positive things you describe, but other things too, a sort of 'rushed' quality to the tempo, an unpleasant edge to the sound and an overall fatiguing quality. I seem to hear this very quickly so find the product largely unlistenable, others seem very happy initially, but find that the 'effect' disappears with time leaving a desire to upgrade and recover the lost excitement.

These are hugely subjective judgements, gained by experience over a long period of time, but they are my experiences, tempered by the experience of others and the response from a fairly large sample of users. (My ex customers)
 

rainsoothe

Well-known member
davedotco said:
Now, if this makes the product sound good to you, this is fine, or is it? To be honest it appears to vary with the listener.

but this is exactly my point, which I also argued in another thread: no matter the technical mumbo-jumbo that explains how companies achieve a "house sound" or whatever (which, for some, is important and for others completely irrelevant), the point remains - they do sound different, and it's not only a matter of "get whatever has more watts" - cause that's what the conclusion I draw when I see Vladimir's postings - which is rather ironic, since he's using a Roksan, not some cheaper Emotiva or Behringer or whatever stuff that just happens to have more watts in it.
 

davedotco

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rainsoothe said:
davedotco said:
Now, if this makes the product sound good to you, this is fine, or is it? To be honest it appears to vary with the listener.

but this is exactly my point, which I also argued in another thread: no matter the technical mumbo-jumbo that explains how companies achieve a "house sound" or whatever (which, for some, is important and for others completely irrelevant), the point remains - they do sound different, and it's not only a matter of "get whatever has more watts" - cause that's what the conclusion I draw when I see Vladimir's postings - which is rather ironic, since he's using a Roksan, not some cheaper Emotiva or Behringer or whatever stuff that just happens to have more watts in it.

True as far as it goes, but as always the devil is in the detail.

The differences that seem so apparent in normal use will still be incredibly hard to pick if the levels are precisely matched, I hesitate to say disappear as I have not tried every combo, but I have tried amps that are very different indeed, including valve compared to solid state.

'Night and day' differences that are obvious in normal use all but dissapear when levels are matched, why and how is that? It maybe that the optimum playback level for amplifiers are different, some perhaps encouraging you to play at a slightly higher level.

I genually have no answers here, I have done enough testing to know that although competent amplifiers will sound very similar (indisernible in most cases) in level matched blind tests they sound very different in normal use.
 

Thompsonuxb

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I am genuinely curious to know what sorts of levels you listened at.

I know when I was thinking of upgrading the amps I listened to sounded different - anything above a whisper.

Mainly in the midrange detail and top end.... Actually bass 'quality' too....erm....actually it was in how they controlled the drivers to present the whole....lol..... They just sounded different.

davedotco said:
rainsoothe said:
davedotco said:
Now, if this makes the product sound good to you, this is fine, or is it? To be honest it appears to vary with the listener.

but this is exactly my point, which I also argued in another thread: no matter the technical mumbo-jumbo that explains how companies achieve a "house sound" or whatever (which, for some, is important and for others completely irrelevant), the point remains - they do sound different, and it's not only a matter of "get whatever has more watts" - cause that's what the conclusion I draw when I see Vladimir's postings - which is rather ironic, since he's using a Roksan, not some cheaper Emotiva or Behringer or whatever stuff that just happens to have more watts in it.

True as far as it goes, but as always the devil is in the detail.

The differences that seem so apparent in normal use will still be incredibly hard to pick if the levels are precisely matched, I hesitate to say disappear as I have not tried every combo, but I have tried amps that are very different indeed, including valve compared to solid state.

'Night and day' differences that are obvious in normal use all but dissapear when levels are matched, why and how is that? It maybe that the optimum playback level for amplifiers are different, some perhaps encouraging you to play at a slightly higher level.

I genually have no answers here, I have done enough testing to know that although competent amplifiers will sound very similar (indisernible in most cases) in level matched blind tests they sound very different in normal use.

 
 

Thompsonuxb

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That's interesting, my perception of the Rotel ra-1520 is completely the opposite to what describe.

The last word I'd use regard its sound is 'compact'.

Imo it's a very clean and open sounding amp. The top end is very 'crisp' giving music very clear edges - the soundstage is not has broad as some of the amps I've heard but it's high vertically, the midrange benefits from the top-end, it was never sibilant strangely enough. Only the lack of timber robs it of 'realism' the lower midrange upper bass not being quite 'connected' through my speakers.
it sounds open and clean/clear though, but saying all that I've never heard a Naim - so maybe I'd need to compare.

rainsoothe said:
Thompsonuxb said:
What we're the differences?

rainsoothe said:
davedotco said:
Things that 'technically' should not make a difference often do

Yes, they do.

Also, I did compare for a week my Rotel RA 1520 with my Supernait 2, in my own home, with 2 sets of speakers I'm very used to and they sound VERY different, I don't understand how this is only a matter of volume or loudness.

no matter what the volume setting is, the Supernait would always sound more open, more silky and rhythm driven. Way bigger soundstage and more ethereal. In comparison, the Rotel would sound more compact, like when you make a sandwich and press the bread slices together and keep them on the bottom of your backpack for 3 hours - it tastes good, but it's like it's more like a paste instead of individual items. Actually my Yamaha HS80 monitors sound closer to the Naim then the Rotel + Martin Logan Motion 40 (although less refined).
 

rainsoothe

Well-known member
Don't get me wrong, thomsompson, I like the Rotel, that's why I bought it, but those impressions are in comparison with the Supernait 2. Audition for yourself - and who knows, maybe you'll go black as well :)
 

fr0g

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The further away an amp is away from simply increasing the amplitude of an input signal, the less "Hi-Fi" it is.

House sound = distortion.

Just saying.
 

davedotco

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fr0g said:
The further away an amp is away from simply increasing the amplitude of an input signal, the less "Hi-Fi" it is.

House sound = distortion.

Just saying.

Never thought or suggested otherwise froggy.

The issue remains that some types of distortion, applied in the right amounts can appear to make recorded music sound more like real, live music.

Obvious example being some valve amplifiers, to some people anyway, plenty of less obvious examples too.

The debate is moving on to whether or not this is a 'bad thing', we all know that it is not hi-fi.

A year or so back I had the chance to play with the Croft Integrated, a hybrid amplifier. Without seemingly favouring any particular kind of music, this amplifier seemed to make anything you threw at it sound more lifelike and real, yet the reality is an amplifier of very modest abilities in terms of it's measured performance.

Do we simply dismiss this as being wrong, even though it sounds more 'real'.....*unknw*
 

rainsoothe

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fr0g said:
The further away an amp is away from simply increasing the amplitude of an input signal, the less "Hi-Fi" it is.

House sound = distortion.

Just saying.

i know :) And I don't really care what the measuring instruments like, I'm more interested in what I like. I mean if a car with round wheels tickles your fancy, then by all means, drive one :D
 

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