DACs and a comparison of Blu-ray players

admin_exported

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Hi there everyone,

I'm currently planning to get a half-decent home cinema set-up. I've read a lot of reviews and threads on WHF and am grateful to all who post on these forums for the useful info.

I'm weighing up the differences between the panasonic 35 and 55, the sony 350 and 550, the pioneer 51 and the denon 2500 (which seems to be available at about £600 from various places, possibly as a result of the negative reviews it has been getting for freezing on bd-live discs.) I'm likely to get a home cinema amp costing in the region of £600 and speakers in the region of £1200 although there may be a gap between getting the tv and blu-ray player and then getting the amp and speakers. I've got 4 questions that I'd love some help with:

(1) DACs are mentioned in a few of the WHF reviews but I have no idea what they are or whether they will make a difference to a setup such as the one I'm considering. Could someone please enlighten me? (I'm even more confused as in the panny 55 review the DAC seems to relate to the audio whereas in the pioneer 51 review it seems to relate to the video.)

(2) I'm reluctant to shell out twice or thrice the price for the pioneer or denon when neither is profile 2 or appears to be in a hurry to get a firmware upgrade out. The pioneer also doesn't decode all the HD audio although my understanding is that if you're putting the sound through an amp, that particular omission won't be a problem. Is that right?

(3) As a profile 1.1 player, will the pioneer have the same 'freezing' issues with bd-live discs as the denon?

(4) Is the pioneer worth an extra £100 on the sony 550 bearing in mind the likely cost / quality of the rest of my planned setup.

Thanks in advance for all your help,

Tim
 

carter

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hello mate im new to this to but i think i can help a bit.if you have reciver that decodes the hd audio codes then the bluray player just needs to bitstream them and the amp does the rest. this way you can probably dicount the sony 55 as i think over the 35 the 55 just decodes the hd audio codes wich you will not need.

and i think dac's are more if you want to play cds and stuff using a bluray player (digital to analoge converter)ie optical in phono out.i hope i this helps a bit.
 
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Anonymous

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Thanks Nonarb, I'm leaning towards the panny 35 or sony 350 mainly because the pioneer and denon just don't seem to be 'the finished product' yet. If I was to spend £600 on a blu-ray player I'd be pretty peeved if it didn't play every blu-ray without problems!

If anyone else would like to chip in, your comments would also be very welcome.

Cheers,

Tim
 

carter

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that's kinda why i went for the sony 350.i got mine for 190 and think there a bit cheaper now it does all i need as i have an onkyo 605 amp that does the audio decoding and for that kinda money if in 18 months time a lot of much better players come out it can go in a bedroom. i think sometimes with new tech it moves so fast to begin with the sony 350 and panny 35 are the best options write now who knows what will be around next year and for how much.
 

gregch

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I have the Pioneer LX71 and would recommend it, even though it isn't "profile 2". Basically, the only thing profile 2 adds is "BD-Live" functionality - the ability to get extra content from the internet. I'm really not keen on that, given that the BD Live content out there so far is patchy and thin, and there's some real problems - eg the Iron Man disk that apparently locked up users machines because of a server overload... ÿadded to which there's the whole dimension of gathering data and locking out disc features by the studios over the internet... strikes me as a world of pain I don't need. ÿWhen I pop a BD Live disk in my LX71 it just ignores the BD Live nonsense and gets straight on with playing the movie and features actually provided on the disk. If I want extra stuff from the internet I have a computer I can use for that ;-)

Also, I have to counter the perception that it's not a 'finished product'. Pioneer very rapidly got firmware updates out to respond to early issues, and the current firmware has made the machine very quick to load, it now has no problems with any disks I've found, and of course the picture and sound quality is exceptional (although one more firmware update will be required - due soon - for DTS Master Audio).

The 51 is very similar (and of course less expensive) but side by side I thought the LX71 picture quality slightly had the edge. Also, sitting side by side, the build quality differences are evident. I went in basically having decided on the 51 but bought the LX71 instead because I felt the difference was worth the extra, but YMMV of course.

ÿÿ
 

professorhat

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timbof:(1) DACs are mentioned in a few of the WHF reviews but I have no idea what they are or whether they will make a difference to a setup such as the one I'm considering. Could someone please enlighten me? (I'm even more confused as in the panny 55 review the DAC seems to relate to the audio whereas in the pioneer 51 review it seems to relate to the video.)

A DAC is simply a digital to analogue converter - if you are bitstreaming the audio to your amp, this means it is still kept in digital form so the DAC isn't really crucial in the player, it's the DAC in the amp which matters. In the case of the video DAC, the same is true. If you are connecting via the HDMI port, the signal is still being sent out digitally so the video DAC isn't important in the player, it's in the TV where the conversion occurs. However, should you be connecting up via one of the analogue connections e.g. component, this is when the video DAC becomes crucial as the conversion is then done within the player.

timbof:(2) I'm reluctant to shell out twice or thrice the price for the pioneer or denon when neither is profile 2 or appears to be in a hurry to get a firmware upgrade out. The pioneer also doesn't decode all the HD audio although my understanding is that if you're putting the sound through an amp, that particular omission won't be a problem. Is that right?

(3) As a profile 1.1 player, will the pioneer have the same 'freezing' issues with bd-live discs as the denon?

As has been mentioned, so long as you're not interested in the online content that can be downloaded through the extras (BD-Live), profile 2.0 shouldn't in theory be important. However, as has been seen, the lack of support can cause issues with new discs (see Clare's blog here). This problems are nearly always sorted with firmware updates as the manufacturers catch up with the way software is implemented on the discs themselves, but there's no denying it could be an issue for a period of time.

timbof:(4) Is the pioneer worth an extra £100 on the sony 550 bearing in mind the likely cost / quality of the rest of my planned setup.

I haven't seen the Denon in action and also, you haven't mentioned what TV you're thinking of. However, unless you're getting a small TV, from the reviews I've read, in terms of the picture quality you get, it's worth it.
 
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Anonymous

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Nodnarb,

Makes a lot of sense - I'm not sure whether my wallet can afford another £600 blu-ray player 12 - 18 months down the line! Both the panny 35 and sony 350 sound pretty good for the money. I may follow your lead, though the next poster makes a compelling case for the Pioneer. Perhaps a trip to Sevenoaks is in order...

Thanks again.
 
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Anonymous

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Hi Greg,

Thanks for your reply, it's very helpful to hear from someone who has seen the 51 and 71 side-by-side. I don't think I'll be able to stretch to the 71, especially as the Denon 2500 has now been reduced by some e-tailers so much that they're now almost direct competitors. I agree that the BD live content sounds superfluous.

Cheers
 
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Anonymous

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Professor, thanks for your words of wisdom, and the link to Clare's blog. Your reply clears everything up nicely about the DACs for me. I'm planning on jumping on the Sony 40W4500 bandwaggon. I feel like I'm just faithfully following WHF's recommendations but I have looked at a fair few screens now and the above model really did thrash every one (except a v expensive and enormous Samsung Series 9.)

Ta.
 
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Anonymous

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Whhhhhooooowwwww Nelly! A trip to Sevenoaks is the last thing I'd do. Unless you absolutely want to be sold a player at RRP for no gain whatsoever. Either Richer Sounds or TLC Broadcast or HiFi Confidential or even Superfi will sell you the Pioneer BDP-51FD for £320. This is the player I'd buy and that's the price I'd pay. (In fact I plan to do exactly that this weekend!)
 
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Anonymous

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They're lovely people but they charge RRP and no offence Prof, but a man of your knowledge and skill hardly has need of the after sales "service" that they provide in return for receiving a royal fleecing.

There are wonderful, reputable and independent dealers, who provide excellent service at a fair price. Sevenoaks' continuing insistence on sticking to RRPs is actually a very useful foil, and serves to highlight the good value to be found elsewhere.

I should add, that a loooooong way back in the past (circa 1993) my first hi-fi came from Sevenoaks and they used to offer superb value. Then they expanded and become what I would describe as an RRP retailer, never deviating other than to offer some great deals on defunct product lines where they bought too much stock, I'm referring to their Arcam AVR300 deal in particular. Other than that, they are, as they say nowadays, what they are!
 

professorhat

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As I say, I've had excellent service from them many times and that includes getting an excellent deal - certainly not paying RRP for everything I received. In no way was I "fleeced". Have you actually attempted to haggle with them?

And, believe it or not, I don't know everything and have found their advice in the past extremely helpful. Anyone who thinks they already know everything is unlikely to get good service anywhere since they are unlikely to listen to any helpful recommendations a dealer makes if it goes against what they "know".
 
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Anonymous

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Prof, you make a good point, and I went through my phase of not listening and came out the other side. I take the advice given these days, but I try and get a few opinions, as sometimes dealers talk down brands they don't cover. Understandable.

But I can't agree with you about Sevenoaks overall. I'm sorry, I don't find they budge on price in my experience. 15 years ago they were a different firm, now they're much bigger and more standardised. They serve a segment of the population who value them for what they do, but I don't have any empathy towards them at all. They approach the sale of goods from the opposite way to me. That's my view. Doesn't have to be everyones!
 

professorhat

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Will Harris:That's my view. Doesn't have to be everyones!

Absolutely and, since they are a franchise, what goes in one store does not necessarily mean it will go the same in another. Which is your local store? I can certainly vouch for the Epsom branch as this is where I purchased my B&W surround speaker setup last year and I know others have been there and praised the service received.
 

Gerrardasnails

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Will Harris:Prof, you make a good point, and I went through my phase of not listening and came out the other side. I take the advice given these days, but I try and get a few opinions, as sometimes dealers talk down brands they don't cover. Understandable.

But I can't agree with you about Sevenoaks overall. I'm sorry, I don't find they budge on price in my experience. 15 years ago they were a different firm, now they're much bigger and more standardised. They serve a segment of the population who value them for what they do, but I don't have any empathy towards them at all. They approach the sale of goods from the opposite way to me. That's my view. Doesn't have to be everyones!

I have to jump in here. For a start, it depends on what shop you go to. The Sevenoaks by Chancery Lane in London are less helpful with price than my local Epsom branch. Here I have had discounts on all my speakers and my sub was sold to me for £650, a week before MA upped the rrp to £850. I demo'd the MT20 package and Denon 2808 with my brother-in-law (who is admittedly an expert barterer) and he got about £300 off the rrp and the Denon was new out at the time.
 

gregch

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Yes, I suspect they vary by branch. Certainly my local branch were very helpful, and as far as price is concerned, were able to give me an incredibly good "regular customer" discount - that made them much cheaper than - literally - anywhere else. I really looked hard for a better deal somewhere else, because I wanted the player faster than they could get one! But in the end it made sense to wait a few days longer, and I'm glad I did, since they were able to get me one while most places were still waiting on stock, and for a much lower price! ÿ

It's true they generally don't advertise low prices, and they'll be only to happy to sell you very expensive full price cables etc. - but it's worth doing a bit of research and then having a conversation with them. I bought the TV from them, and the price again was better than I could get anywhere else at the time, but I paid over the odds for cables because I hadn't spent the time to decide what I really wanted or how much they would be. This time around, I did the research and they gave me a great price on the player and price-matched the best internet price I could find on the cables. So 'thumbs up' from me.ÿ
 
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Anonymous

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Well I'm cheared by the positive views you all have. My local branch used to be Tunbridge Wells and also Sevenoaks itself. Sad to say, I can't say I've had the experience you've had.
 
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Anonymous

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Thanks for the further input on the blu-ray players guys. Will's enthusiasm for the Pioneer is useful.

For what it's worth, I've been into one London branch of Sevenoaks and a few Richer Sounds. RS seems to be having stock problems with just about anything recommended by WHF recently. The branch of Sevenoaks I went to didn't seem to have much room to budge on price although that was before their sale.

Cheers,
 
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Anonymous

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Ring ahead and all will usually be well. The one good thing about the web is that you can do your research before you head on out. Best of luck! (The Pioneer BDP-51FD is a goodie). Don't forget that you'll have to update it's firmware, immediately after buying it and then again in March when the DTS Master Audio update comes out. You can use it straight out, but the update is supposed to greatly improve performance including that of DVD upscaling.
 

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