Competition for a Lindemann dac 24/192, maybe Antelope?

[SolarGlider]

Hello everyone,

I want to replace my Musical Fidelity V-Dac 2 + PSU 2 for an even better dac. Don't get me wrong, the MF is worth every penny and is serious (I thought better) competition for the Rega dac which I've heard once (MF with PSU ofcourse). I've done a lot of studying on the subject, talked to a few very experienced people. One of them recommended the brand-new lindemann dac with class 2 usb input up to 192 kHz. I've compared it to the MF and while it's not miles ahead of the MF it is a lot more real and analog sounding. I've heard the audiolab cdq as well with practically the same dac as in the M-Dac and I thought the Lindemann is better. It is more up there with Benchmark (very similar sound signature), Lavry, Apogee, maybe not Weiss . Now I'm comparing it to Antelope which gets excellent reviews as well because of their reference clocking. Has anyone heard the Zodiac or the Lindemann for comparison?

 

[SolarGlider]

It looks like nobody heard either one. This is understandable since there is a vast selection of dacs these days. After much deliberation I've decided to order the Lindemann, for 699 euro not that expensive either, my hifi store gives me a 14 day refund if I wouldn't like it. But it seems there is a buzz about the Lindemann and it is competing with a higher category. Now I'm wondering how it will sound on my set. If you're shopping around under 1000 definitely audition this one.

 

[Overdose]

Seems like a lot of money for something so basic.

 

[SolarGlider]

Dac's seem basic enough, but to really get 'cd-quality' I still have to hear the first one for half that price. People spend fortunes on cd-players to get the best of their recording. Now a lot is shifting towards computer based audio. If you have high res files on your pc every dac is going to handle it in it's own way. Your answer is not based on actual experience since you said nothing to point out why it's pointless to spend this much. If you have (for example) a +10.000 system do you think a MF V-dac and a Naim dac are going to sound the same?

 

[Overdose]

My statement stands.

A DAC is a very simple to implement device. In fact, DAC chip manufacturers give clear instructions to the buyer how best to implement them. The tonal difference between DACS is down to the analogue output stage.

My experience in building, modifying and generally tinkering with DACs tells me this is so. If you wish to spend a relatively large amount of money on a DAC, then that is your business, but there is no direct corellation between cost and sound quality, particularly with DACs.

Regarding the use of the MF V-DAC and a Naim DAC in a 10K system, I wouldn't know, perhaps the V-DAC sounds marginally better, either way neither of them are products that would interest me regardless of my budget.

 

[SolarGlider]

Point taken. I know that the chip is unimportant for the sound quality (Burr-Brown, Wolfson, Sabre) and the implemantation is more important. Still I don't think it is worthless to compare dac's since I noticed differences that I could not call subtle. I don't have your technical expertise but I'd like to think I have good ears

 

[Overdose]

It's rarely worthless to try anything once at least. There is always some knowledge to be gained somewhere. I don't know that I could consider my tinkerings with DACs 'technical expertise', but I have had some experience with this side of hifi and also in cable manufacture (speaker cable and interconnects), mainly to see what all the fuss and hype was about regarding such items. My experience and findings during all of this made me reassess the way I viewed hifi equipment and my buying habits have changed accordingly.

A lot of people assume that their hearing is good, they always 'trust their ears', but when did you last have them tested? I only ask, as I have regular check ups for work and it's interesting (if not a little alarming) to see how hearing drops off as you get older.

Back to your original post, the Antelope range look nice, if a tad pricey, but do seem to offer more functionality. The Lindemann looks to be less value for money when considering its feature set, I guess it's a matter of how much you can afford and whether or not you can justify the expense. If you can on both accounts and enjoy the product, then all the better. I wasn't knocking your choice, mereley stating my opinion on it's price.

 

[SolarGlider]

Well, I'm going to get the Lindemann DAC USB 24/192 for audition on tuesday. I'm curious myself how it compares to the V-dac II.

It's going to be a fun competition for me because both dacs are somewhat comparable soundwise, I've heard it once on another system (Lindemann). So I have absolutely no idea what it is going to be here.

A friend of mine, who is a seller in a high-end audio store nows it by heart and absolutely swears by it. I'm intrigued ofcourse but I'm going to let my ears be the judge of that.

First impressions will be given soon.

 

[SolarGlider]

Ok, after 3 hours of listening a variety of songs I can conclude this much: It is a better dac than the MF V-dac II. I've used it for a year (it's already promised to someone) so I now it pretty well. The first noticeable thing is clarity. It has tons of it. The highs are airy but detailed and well articulated. The mids are profound and very dynamic when they need to be. At the moment there is still an edge to the highs but I suspect this will better soon. For a brand-new dac straight out of the box it is impressive to see how well it performs already. I would say the colouration is very mild, it is a bit warm in the mids but very tight in the lows, with a bass that performs admirably. I have a Naim XS that I really have to nudge to get a better bass. I'm using a Kimber Hero with WBT-0144 RCA type connectors that really opened up the lows. But I was still listening to the MF then. Now with the Lindemann the bass is even more defined, not tons but better. In short, at the moment I still believe that the MF has the strongest price/quality at this price point. But I wanted more, and that is exactly what the Lindemann does, they have a few sonic resemblances but have different strongpoints. There were songs to be honest that I thought sounded better on the MF then on the Lindemann, but it is possible that I still have to get used to the differences between the two. But in fairness I don't want to give the Lindemann away anymore, when I played electronical music like Faithless or Delerium my eyes glittered. I was smiling like a schoolboy at the tight delivery, darker background and overall better sound with more depth in the soundstage. So I'm wondering what the next few weeks will give in sonic improvement.

edit typo

 

[SolarGlider]

Two weeks later and it is a keeper. The treble has opened up and is not harsh anymore. When I play very high res files it is an absolute dream to listen to. The vocals are less forward, the soundstage has increased substantially and detail is absolute breathtaking. The main advantage of this dac in my opinion is that it has three seperate clocks beginning at 44.1 kHz. That is something that I've learned. Dac's get pretty good when you feed them high res stuff but when you play on lower bitrates it usually isn't the same anymore, the trick is to find a dac that handles all bitrates well and tries to get the best out of a poor recording. It doesn't matter which input you take, what kind of file you're playing, it is always trying to get the best out of it. I've listened to Arcam r-dac and MF V-dac II (both cheaper ofcourse) and imo they are not as revealing, detailed, layered as this one.

The sheer musicality and depth, bass control. It reaches the entire spectrum with ease and this combined with an analogue sound that get's under your skin. But for this puppy you need the equipment to back it up.

I really get excited about this one, because it has a price/quality level that I have not seen in this price class. I think it's a bit of a shame and a loss in objectiveness to only look at English dac's while almost every audio company is designing one. But ofcourse to help the local economy it can be beneficial to only look at domestic appliances.

 

[Anonymous]

I am not much of a believer in USB audio, and I build DACs for a living so I do get to play about wih the various technologies. I haven't heard the Lindemann yet, but wouldn't mind stacking it up against my own Bushmaster DAC.

 

[SolarGlider]

This is a next gen dac certainly in this price range perticularly focused on USB-audio. I hope you get a chance to listen to it, it could be fun. Have you listened to class 2 USB devices before?

 

[Anonymous]

I am busy designing the next generation Caiman DAC with a Class 2 USB chip.

 

[SolarGlider]

It will probably be more expensive then the bushmaster because of the higher costing components I suppose. In what price range will this be introduced to?

 

[Anonymous]

Less than £300 delivered. The extra parts are not going to cost more than £25 and if I share the Bushmaster case between the two I only have to worry about changes to the front and rear panels. Add VAT and the cost of a few drinks and I can get achieve my target price with ease.