chord qutest

[ellisdj]

He has just bought 4grands worth of amplifier to power floorstanders why would he now want to buy active book shelf speakers - its not a sensible recommendation Andrew in this situation

I have tried quite a few very good upper eschelon products in the last year some have had FPGA dacs and some havent - the FPGA dacs Hugo 2, PS Audio Directstream, Dave and now Qutest have always sounded that bit clearer.

Its not to say the other products sounded bad - far from it its just the FPGA Dacs mentioned seems to have an extra level of clarity and organisation to the sound thats very addictive.

 

[Blacksabbath25]

He has just bought 4grands worth of amplifier to power floorstanders why would he now want to buy active book shelf speakers - its not a sensible recommendation Andrew in this situation

I have tried quite a few very good upper eschelon products in the last year some have had FPGA dacs and some havent - the FPGA dacs Hugo 2, PS Audio Directstream, Dave and now Qutest have always sounded that bit clearer.

Its not to say the other products sounded bad - far from it its just the FPGA Dacs mentioned seems to have an extra level of clarity and organisation to the sound thats very addictive.

The thing is I understand I should now be looking at my speakers for a upgrading but feel they are quite clear and detailed already so I thought a long the lines of a very good Dac .

 

[ellisdj]

People always suggest speakers as an upgrade which does make sense - its good advice.

When I bought the REF 3 I knew full well I wasnt getting anything like the best out of them - 18months later I still dont think I have got the best out of them yet - I still think they will give more yet.

So I think depends on how you look at it?

We need to do a mains product test soon - sometime in April likely be best May is extremely busy for me.

 

[BigH]

So are you people saying that the chord Dac is not going to be much different to the Dac inside my Yamaha CD player ? As the Yamaha uses a ES9016 Dac and I can change the DPLL bandwidth in 7 steps to lowest- highest .

I would get one on home demo. If you buy from Richers then you can only exchange for something else without losing money?

In blind tests and bake-offs many could not hear a difference, even the Sonos against much more expensive DACs.

 

[Blacksabbath25]

People always suggest speakers as an upgrade which does make sense - its good advice.

When I bought the REF 3 I knew full well I wasnt getting anything like the best out of them - 18months later I still dont think I have got the best out of them yet - I still think they will give more yet.

So I think depends on how you look at it?

We need to do a mains product test soon - sometime in April likely be best May is extremely busy for me.

yep that’s how I feel about my Dali’s I’ve proven to myself that I could more out of them by changing the amplifier 2 or 3 times the quality has gone up each time and as you no your self your probably heard you KEFs change there sound quite a lot with the different bits of kit you have tried some brilliantly and some not so good .

I personally feel I’ve got more to come out of my Dali’s yet and insider will say how clear and detailed and got the excitement I get out of the Dali’s and my room is not to bad for room errors going what insider had said but that’s without testing the room just by listening and I do not get any boom so I was looking at the Dac just to see if I could get more quality out of the Dali’s .

 

[hybridauth_Facebook_100004211376004]

I'd say your source for streaming is the weakest link in the system sabbath and I reckon a good dac will bring an overall improvement....if you do..in the end start streaming from a nas drive though..I'd be looking at a proper streamer instead of a standalone dac......linn,naim and electrocompaniet all have great products that you should have a listen to......it is going to be where you and most folks will end up listening to your tunes.lol.

I think a naim streamer could really inject some life and excitement into your system....from what I've read the yamaha can be quite a relaxing presentation...only a suggestion though and the proof is in the listening ...you need to get out there and listen to more gear......but it does seem you are still discontented with what you have.....and what you have shouldn't really be making you feel this way as it's as all very good kit.

 

[Deleted member 108165]

Clarity I like, I can't get enough. Thanks for the info.

You need a set of these Gray https://pmc-speakers.com/products/professional/active/twotwo5 *biggrin*

 

[Blacksabbath25]

I'd say your source for streaming is the weakest link in the system sabbath and I reckon a good dac will bring an overall improvement....if you do..in the end start streaming from a nas drive though..I'd be looking at a proper streamer instead of a standalone dac......linn,naim and electrocompaniet all have great products that you should have a listen to......it is going to be where you and most folks will end up listening to your tunes.lol.

I think a naim streamer could really inject some life and excitement into your system....from what I've read the yamaha can be quite a relaxing presentation...only a suggestion though and the proof is in the listening ...you need to get out there and listen to more gear......but it does seem you are still discontented with what you have.....and what you have shouldn't really be making you feel this way as it's as all very good kit.

You know what this hobby like Mark I am just tweaking my setup that’s all I didn’t want to buy a streamer and pay for the Dac that’s inside I wanted to buy a really good Dac separately and then do the Hard drive solution separate but wanted the Dac to pay for its self and run the CD player as well as the streamer side of things

 

[andyjm]

There is a video where the differences between an FPGA dac and a Sabre dac is explained.

The FPGA has about half the components in comparison to the Sabre its a much shorter and simple signal path - according to that video anyway in that comparison.

I cant remember where I saw it but it was very interesting. It will be out there if you look for it.

FGPAs have been around for a long time.

The old Sinclair ZX80 (for those old enough to remember) had a ULA (a precurser to a FPGA). Xilinx FPGAs have been widely used in audio - the old Slimdevices Squeezebox range had Xilinx FPGAs at its core. Generally FPGAs are used when volumes are too low to justify a full ASIC implementation.

My point is that there is nothing magic about FPGAs - for volume production a normal ASIC approach would be the route of choice.

So why all the excitement about FPGAs? I would assume Chord are only using FPGAs because they can't afford a full fab run like ESS.

 

[ellisdj]

I think you want the dac away from the noisey environment of the streamer - isolated from it.

 

[insider9]

Sabbath, I'd wait if I were you. What you're proposing right now is not quite thought through, I'm afraid.

Buying a DAC may give you an improvement. And likely will but it's not going to be massive. You will be using a £1k plus CD Player as a transport when you could use your Oppo for that to achieve the same result.

Your preference is to use balanced inputs on your amp and think of buying unbalanced DAC.

You will need a RCA to BNC coax cable to connect both your WXC-50 and a transport to Qutest as neither of your devices has USB out and Qutest has only one optical. You won't be able to play any SACD/DSD as neither coax or optical can do it. If Qutest is anything like Mojo I've used it will sound its best via USB which you won't use.

Whatever happened to your NAS? Did you get it? Are you going to use it? If so how will you connect it and to what? Will it make your other devices obsolete?

At present it all sounds overcomplicated. Setups like that are usually frustrating to use. If you plug in your existing setup to Qutest then imagine this.

If you want to play something from WXC-50. Change input on amp to Qutest, change input on Qutest to wherever you plugged in CDS2100, change input on CDS2100 to WXC-50 and you can stream.

Then you want to play SACD. Change input on Yamaha AS3000 to CDS2100. Change output to SACD on player.

Spending money should come with convenience. I can already tell you now that you will be wondering "why is it not playing?" with setup like this on a regular basis for the first couple of weeks.

Slow down plan the whole thing first and then spend your money.

 

[hybridauth_Facebook_100004211376004]

Yes you do have a streamer Sabbath....but it's a £350 unit feeding a 4k amp and 2k speakers.......a streamer of similar standing to the other components will let the overall system shine more brightly and be a whole lot less complicated ....it's not just about the dac....

 

[ellisdj]

There are quite a few videos why Chord and PS Audio use FPGA rather than off the shelf Sabre.

PS Audio use Sabre Dac chips in their entry level products so its not a buying power decision - The Stellar Range, I couldnt remember the name when I posted

Here is one example

 

[Blacksabbath25]

Sabbath, I'd wait if I were you. What you're proposing right now is not quite thought through, I'm afraid.

Buying a DAC may give you an improvement. And likely will but it's not going to be massive. You will be using a £1k plus CD Player as a transport when you could use your Oppo for that to achieve the same result.

Your preference is to use balanced inputs on your amp and think of buying unbalanced DAC.

You will need a RCA to BNC coax cable to connect both your WXC-50 and a transport to Qutest as neither of your devices has USB out and Qutest has only one optical. You won't be able to play any SACD/DSD as neither coax or optical can do it. If Qutest is anything like Mojo I've used it will sound its best via USB which you won't use.

Whatever happened to your NAS? Did you get it? Are you going to use it? If so how will you connect it and to what? Will it make your other devices obsolete?

At present it all sounds overcomplicated. Setups like that are usually frustrating to use. If you plug in your existing setup to Qutest then imagine this.

If you want to play something from WXC-50. Change input on amp to Qutest, change input on Qutest to wherever you plugged in CDS2100, change input on CDS2100 to WXC-50 and you can stream.

Then you want to play SACD. Change input on Yamaha AS3000 to CDS2100. Change output to SACD on player.

Spending money should come with convenience. I can already tell you now that you will be wondering "why is it not playing?" with setup like this on a regular basis for the first couple of weeks.

Slow down plan the whole thing first and then spend your money.

here is a picture of the rear of my CD player so you can see if it’s possible for me to use the chord Dac with it .

And the Oppo 205 users the ES18 Dac that the Yamaha cd3000 uses but the Oppo doesn’t sound so open as the cd2100 does but the Oppo has the better Dac chip inside .

 

[CnoEvil]

Sabbath, I'd wait if I were you. What you're proposing right now is not quite thought through, I'm afraid.

Buying a DAC may give you an improvement. And likely will but it's not going to be massive. You will be using a £1k plus CD Player as a transport when you could use your Oppo for that to achieve the same result.

I agree.

One of the reasons for getting into Streaming (with a decent Streamer), is to get rid of the CDP and so take advantage of removing the mechanical motor (and inherent Electro/Mechanical noise) and disc reading in real time.

For me, it was an eye opener a few years ago, when Linn first introduced their DS....Lyric took a CD and ripped it. They then played the album with one of Linn's top CDP, followed by the ripped version on a Majik DS. The MDS was a third of the price and twice as good. In fact, even the humble Sneaky sounded a bit better.

It's no wonder they dropped their CDPs.

 

[newlash09]

Is the best way forward with a chord dac. I would sell the cd player, and use the funds to get either auralic aries mini or if you can stretch an innous zenith. The innous zenith can run roon core too. So you can use roon without adding anything else. Roon sounds filters + up sampling function + dsp for room correction will give you a huge lift in sound quality. Since you did consider adding a nas setup in the past, this will be the best way forward.

I am sorry to say, that your love for your cd player is restricting your options. Cd players are not the best ways to spin a disk anymore, and they are pretty behind the curve today . Once you can look beyond that, there are plethora of options in the digital world that give better convenience as well as sound quality. Your kit really deserves it

( I already said sorry before my rant )

 

[andyjm]

There are quite a few videos why Chord and PS Audio use FPGA rather than off the shelf Sabre.

PS Audio use Sabre Dac chips in their entry level products so its not a buying power decision - The Stellar Range, I couldnt remember the name when I posted

Here is one example

Ellis,

I think you misunderstood my point. ESS produce the Sabre as an ASIC because they are making lots of them and it is cheaper to do it that way.

Chord are using an FPGA because they aren't making enough to justify a full ASIC design. Chord could produce exactly the same functional design as they currently use as an ASIC, but the development costs and and volume required for this to makes sense are too high.

There is nothing magical about an FPGA, it allows single chip bespoke designs to be implemented at a lower cost than a full fab ASIC route.

So, it gets back to my original point, what is the magic in FPGAs?

 

[ellisdj]

There are quite a few videos why Chord and PS Audio use FPGA rather than off the shelf Sabre.

PS Audio use Sabre Dac chips in their entry level products so its not a buying power decision - The Stellar Range, I couldnt remember the name when I posted

Here is one example

Ellis,

I think you misunderstood my point. ESS produce the Sabre as an ASIC because they are making lots of them and it is cheaper to do it that way.

Chord are using an FPGA because they aren't making enough to justify a full ASIC design. Chord could produce exactly the same functional design as they currently use as an ASIC, but the development costs and and volume required for this to makes sense are too high.

There is nothing magical about an FPGA, it allows single chip bespoke designs to be implemented at a lower cost than a full fab ASIC route.

So, it gets back to my original point, what is the magic in FPGAs?

The magical part is the programming surely the approach to using the chip in the overall design process

Ted Smith at PS Audio does it for reasons of reducing incoming Jitter

 

[Gray]

Clarity I like, I can't get enough. Thanks for the info.

You need a set of these Gray https://pmc-speakers.com/products/professional/active/twotwo5 *biggrin*

Black would suit you too.

 

[Andrewjvt]

He has just bought 4grands worth of amplifier to power floorstanders why would he now want to buy active book shelf speakers - its not a sensible recommendation Andrew in this situation

I have tried quite a few very good upper eschelon products in the last year some have had FPGA dacs and some havent - the FPGA dacs Hugo 2, PS Audio Directstream, Dave and now Qutest have always sounded that bit clearer.

Its not to say the other products sounded bad - far from it its just the FPGA Dacs mentioned seems to have an extra level of clarity and organisation to the sound thats very addictive. 

I was not trying to sell him active speakers as you suggested.
But I was trying to make a point about a pointless upgrade and hopefully save him some money.

He's already blown loads of money and now he's looking for more clarity.

My point was it is achievable without such cost if clarity is what he's after.

 

[newlash09]

Benchmark dacs, especially the dac2 comes heavily recommended. Pair it with a benchmark AHB2 poweramp and you have the best clarity possible from traditional class A or AB designs under usd 10k

 

[Blacksabbath25]

What I do not understand is this what will a very good streamer do differently then a Yamaha wxc50 does they both stream so your paying for the Dac inside surely ?

 

[ellisdj]

He has just bought 4grands worth of amplifier to power floorstanders why would he now want to buy active book shelf speakers - its not a sensible recommendation Andrew in this situation

I have tried quite a few very good upper eschelon products in the last year some have had FPGA dacs and some havent - the FPGA dacs Hugo 2, PS Audio Directstream, Dave and now Qutest have always sounded that bit clearer.

Its not to say the other products sounded bad - far from it its just the FPGA Dacs mentioned seems to have an extra level of clarity and organisation to the sound thats very addictive.

I was not trying to sell him active speakers as you suggested. But I was trying to make a point about a pointless upgrade and hopefully save him some money.

He's already blown loads of money and now he's looking for more clarity.

My point was it is achievable without such cost if clarity is what he's after.

You cant honestly believe that just buying a pair of active speakers as you mentioned gives you as much clarity as you can possibly get from any audio system that you can possibly buy - come off it man it doesnt work like that and even if it did its not as simple as that either.

Bigger speakers will give a bigger scale of sound generally - why is it wrong to want more clarity to accompany that scale - to me thats a very sensible goal.

As I mentioned before I have had some top kit in to listen to and I didnt get the clarity that I am now getting with the Qutest dac, its true, I even said it at the time

Maybe I would get it with a benchmark dac as well but that doesnt mean buying a new dac is a bad idea - and depending on what dac is currently being used it might be a great idea.

The Qutest is capable of incredible sound quality and its very well spec'd with the exception of MQA and far from silly money. Its a very good long term purchase

 

[CnoEvil]

What I do not understand is this what will a very good streamer do differently then a Yamaha wxc50 does they both stream so your paying for the Dac inside surely ?

I can go on (not particularly knowledgeably) about power supplies and upsampling etc...but you just need to listen for yourself. You will either be convinced, or you won't.

Linn sound different to Naim....and you can hear the improvement as you go up the Linn DS chain.

 

[andyjm]

There are quite a few videos why Chord and PS Audio use FPGA rather than off the shelf Sabre.

PS Audio use Sabre Dac chips in their entry level products so its not a buying power decision - The Stellar Range, I couldnt remember the name when I posted

Here is one example

Ellis,

I think you misunderstood my point. ESS produce the Sabre as an ASIC because they are making lots of them and it is cheaper to do it that way.

Chord are using an FPGA because they aren't making enough to justify a full ASIC design. Chord could produce exactly the same functional design as they currently use as an ASIC, but the development costs and and volume required for this to makes sense are too high.

There is nothing magical about an FPGA, it allows single chip bespoke designs to be implemented at a lower cost than a full fab ASIC route.

So, it gets back to my original point, what is the magic in FPGAs?

The magical part is the programming surely the approach to using the chip in the overall design process

Ted Smith at PS Audio does it for reasons of reducing incoming Jitter

OK. So there is nothing magical about FPGAs, just the design of the DAC. That was the point I was trying to make.

I was trying to avoid FPGAs becoming the new oxygen free copper, a fancy term bandied about with no understanding to justify performance.

Lets say Chord's design was indeed excellent (as it well may be), and Chord could sell 1 million DACs per year. In this case they would drop the FPGA implementation like a hot potato and it would be straight to an ASIC for their design.