Centre-Speaker-Stupid-Question-Time

[admin_exported]

I'm about as far from a home cinema expert as you can get, so bear with me.

I'm selling my as-new Tannoy SFX 5.1 system [EDITED BY MODS - sorry, no trading on the forums] just because I fancy a change and now have the following:

Wharfdale 9's Front & Rear

SFX Sub (going soon with the rest of the set-up)

Vibe Monolith centre

The centre has incredible sound but is a little bass-y for me and seems to take over everything but the sub, so here's the stupid question that you've all been waiting for:

Can I link an additional less bass-y speaker to the Vibe to pick up speech a little better? In other words, add an additional higher range speaker?

If nothing else I'm sure I've given a few of you a giggle! :rofl:

Thanks.

 

[Gerrardasnails]

You would be better off replacing your centre speaker with the centre unit that matches your Wharfedale fronts or just another Wharfedale 9.

 

[Petherick]

Well the best option would be to get the matching Wharfedale centre speaker (as above) but in the meanwhile you could try setting the centre as 'small' in the amp's setup. It may improve things.

 

[Chewy]

Well the best option would be to get the matching Wharfedale centre speaker (as above) but in the meanwhile you could try setting the centre as 'small' in the amp's setup. It may improve things.

Agreed - if you're using a sub, all speakers should be set as small in any case, no matter what their bass abilities.

Have you properly calibrated your speaker levels with an SPL meter to ensure they are the same level? If not, I suspect that centre speaker is cranked up too much which is more likely a reason for it being more dominant than its abilities with bass frequencies.

As others have advised, you're better off with a matching centre to better integrate with your mains, and resign the existing centre to the 'bay'.

 

[Dan Turner]

if you're using a sub, all speakers should be set as small in any case, no matter what their bass abilities.

In my experience the more of the frequency range that the speakers are able to produce, the better the set-up will sound, so if you have large speaker, absolutely set them to large.

That's not to say that the advice to set the centre to small isn't valid - i reckon that will do the trick in this case.

 

[Chewy]

if you're using a sub, all speakers should be set as small in any case, no matter what their bass abilities.

In my experience the more of the frequency range that the speakers are able to produce, the better the set-up will sound, so if you have large speaker, absolutely set them to large.

That's not to say that the advice to set the centre to small isn't valid - i reckon that will do the trick in this case.

No - that is incorrect I'm afraid. The more overlap exists in the production of bass frequencies by different sizes and specification of drivers the more muddied and coloured the reproduction of bass frequencies will become. It is the very reason that the mastering studios that edit and produce the soundtrack in the first place use professional sub/sat monitoring system rather than full range hi-fi systems, because the soundtrack is design to be played with an 80Hz or similar cut-off between the main speakers and the sub, and the bass frequencies can therefore be accurately tailored and edited by the sound engineer.

You may think your system sounds fuller and more bass-rich running your main speakers as large, but what you are gaining in sound pressure, you are trading for accuracy in reproduction of the soundtrack as the sound engineers/director/producer intended.

 

[Dan Turner]

I'm sorry, but with the greatest respect, that doesn't make any sense on several different levels. Firstly if what you say about the mastering process is true then how come the resulting soundtracks have 5 or 7 channels of full-range audio? Secondly on a modern AV receiver when you set your speaker size you get to determine the cross-over frequency, which limits both the lower extent of frequencies being sent to your main speakers and the upper extent of frequencies being sent to your sub - so what ever you set it to, there is only the overlap that there is meant to be to get a seamless transition. Thirdly if what you say is true then why are there so many full-size surround sound speaker packages out there? Fourthly the whole reason that sub/sat speaker packages work, with a single unit producing the lower frequencies, is because the lower the frequency the less the human ear is able to perceive its directionality, but this has limits obviously - the more of the frequency range your main speakers can produce, the better because the ear can tell the difference between the real thing and trickery in all but the lowest part of the frequency range. Lastly - just listen to the difference between a full size set of speakers fed a full range signal and sats fed a limited bandwidth signal - the difference is absolutely palpable!

 

[Chewy]

I'm sorry, but with the greatest respect, that doesn't make any sense on several different levels.

No worries Dan, allow me to explain.

Firstly if what you say about the mastering process is true then how come the resulting soundtracks have 5 or 7 channels of full-range audio?

Part of the industry standard for soundtracks set for home release is that all channels must contain full band width sound so as not to require consumers to own/use a sub (think TV speakers or 2.0 systems). The audio codecs used for home release are designed to give maximum flexibilty and works on all systems. However what we are talking about here, is what is optimum for an owner of a 5.1/7.1 system.

Secondly on a modern AV receiver when you set your speaker size you get to determine the cross-over frequency, which limits both the lower extent of frequencies being sent to your main speakers and the upper extent of frequencies being sent to your sub - so what ever you set it to, there is only the overlap that there is meant to be to get a seamless transition.

Agreed, but your suggestion was setting the front speakers to large, in which case no bass from the front three channels will be redirected to the sub as no cross over frequency is being utilised for these speakers. This is very different from setting them to 'small', and then selecting a lower cross-over frequency which may have some merits. Setting the front speakers to large ensures that a significant proportion of the bass frequenices are lost - given the frequency range can extend down to 20Hz and very few full range speaker can reach this far down, and even those with specs to say they can, ultimately roll off rapidly long before that frequency is reached.

Thirdly if what you say is true then why are there so many full-size surround sound speaker packages out there?

Two reasons mainly:

a) Most low-mid range home cinema speaker packages are a compromise between providing two channel listening (which traditionally doesn't utilise a sub and requires a full range speaker) and surround sound reproduction, and

b) Unfortunately consumers gravitate towards pretty boxes with lots of drivers. It is what sells, so manufacturers have to structure their ranges accordingly.

Lets not forget here, we are talking solely about multi-channel movie soundtrack reproduction.

The better question is, if the speakers are designed to be set as large, why bother suppling a sub?

Fourthly the whole reason that sub/sat speaker packages work, with a single unit producing the lower frequencies, is because the lower the frequency the less the human ear is able to perceive its directionality, but this has limits obviously - the more of the frequency range your main speakers can produce, the better because the ear can tell the difference between the real thing and trickery in all but the lowest part of the frequency range.

Agreed, and there is wide and varied debate on the directionality of bass frequencies, extending even to the merits of subs in stereo configurations. One thing that doesn't have to be debated though, is that full range speakers are, for the most part, incapable of producing those frequencies accurately, so I find it strange that anyone would recommend doing so.

Lastly - just listen to the difference between a full size set of speakers fed a full range signal and sats fed a limited bandwidth signal - the difference is absolutely palpable!

It ought to be, you are comparing apples to oranges here, and drifting off the point of the thread. Obviously a set of five sat speakers fed a limited signal will not compare to a set of full size speakers sent a full range signal. Why would they?

That said, outside of the very high end (think £30k+), when it comes to the reproduction of movie soundtracks, no set of full range speakers can compete with a properly calibrated system incorporating at least one subwoofer (budget being equal), whether that set of speakers are sat type speakers or full range speakers.

But this has little to do with the thread discussion, which is whether any or all of the LCR speakers should be set to 'small' or 'large'. Bringing this back on topic therefore, the simple answer is 'small' for all speakers if you want to accurately produce bass frequencies from a movie soundtrack.

AVR manufacturers have muddied the water by allowing users to set speakers at full band when they should not be, but it this reason that all the specifications for DTS, Dolby, THX, Audessey etc etc, all recommend the use of a subwoofer with a cut-off frequency at or around 80Hz for accurate reproduction of bass frequencies.

 

[Dan Turner]

Everything you've said makes total sense. I guess where I was going, and what I clearly should have articulated better was that (with the possible exception of the OPs scenario here for his centre) the speaker setting on the AV amp should be set so that the main speakers are sent a signal of whatever bandwidth they are capable of reproducing, and the rest should go to the sub. You're totally right though, that means setting them to small, but in many cases it will also mean adjusting the crossover frequency to suit the speakers in question.

 

[CnoEvil]

Everything you've said makes total sense. I guess where I was going, and what I clearly should have articulated better was that (with the possible exception of the OPs scenario here for his centre) the speaker setting on the AV amp should be set so that the main speakers are sent a signal of whatever bandwidth they are capable of reproducing, and the rest should go to the sub. You're totally right though, that means setting them to small, but in many cases it will also mean adjusting the crossover frequency to suit the speakers in question.

DT, Gdavies is correct in what he says, but like you, I prefer my speakers set to Large (always the Rebel!).

This thread might be of interest, especially comments by Coldmachine: http://www.avforums.com/forums/arcam-products/912025-avr600-totem-speakers.html