celestion ditton 15 or Wharfedale denton

[cisamcgu]

Hi all,

I have the folllowing :

Denon M30 CD transport

NAD 316BEE amplifier

REGA Planar 3 TT

and Wharfdale Denton (c. 1970) speakers.

I like the sound it makes

However, I have the chance of getting a pair of Celestion Ditton 15 speakers (free of charge ) - would these be better, worse, the same as the Dentons ?

Any one any idea ?

Andrew

 

[dansettemajor]

Hi Andrew

The Celestion Ditton 15's were considered to be a step up from the Dentons, back in the 70's. They were more sophisticated in their design than the Dentons, having an Auxiliary Bass Radiator in addition to the 8 inch bass unit, and had a much better tweeter, giving a more extended and sweeter treble response.

The closest Wharfedale model to the Ditton 15's were the Lintons, but even they were not considered to be as good as the Celestions at the time.

Most HiFi mags recommended the Ditton 15's over the Wharfedale models during the early/ mid 1970's.

 

[emperor's new clothes]

Hi Ditton 15 my first hifi purchase in 1973. Patnered with Beomaster and Beogram gave happy listening for over a decade. Chose them over the competition at the time. Can't remember the Wharfdales but my dad had some with15 inch bass drivers. As they are free, worth a listen

 

[nopiano]

Dm has said pretty much said what I was going to, though rather better. At their age now, either pair might be less than 100%, so worth trying the Dittons, which you can use upright or on their sides. Might need more air around them than your Dentons if i remember correctly as bass was a bit flabby even when new, so suited to stands rather than bookshelves, as I recall them being shown in adverts.

 

[davedotco]

From memory the Ditton 15 speakers were over bassy, lacking in extensions at both ends and typical of speakers of the day.

The big bassy sound was very popular with buyers, I thought them hopeless then and even worse now.

The Wharfedale Denton, on the other hand, was fairly decent, much better than the bigger Super Linton which like the Ditton 15 was soft, over bassy and naturally a bigger seller.

Looking back a lot of the speakers were particularly nasty, if you liked a bit of rock music finding anything with clarity, speed or articulation at the bass end was very hard work.

 

[cisamcgu]

Thanks for the advice. I will get hold of them and give them a try - they look a lot bigger than the Dentons - so they may be a little too obtrusive anyway.

Again - thanks

 

[plastic penguin]

Thanks for the advice. I will get hold of them and give them a try - they look a lot bigger than the Dentons - so they may be a little too obtrusive anyway.

Again - thanks

From memory, the Dentons (XP2) were fairly smooth and always sounded great with a lively amp, such as Pioneer. Whether they would match well with Nad or not I couldn't say for sure, but guess they wouldn't.

 

[davedotco]

You have to remember the application, the Ditton 15 was quite tall (for a small speaker) and usually placed on the floor, passable on classical and 'light' music but slow and bloated on pop or rock music. Stands would probably help but really did no exist in 1970.

The best speakers were probably the smallest, Ditton 10s, Dentons and Goodmans Maxim, all sharper and more focussed than the bigger models.

You have to remember the times, there was still a fair number of established manufacturers who thought that 'pop', or, God forbid, rock music, was entirely inappropriate for 'proper' systems. They were build to reproduce archestral music and to do so with scale and warmth, pop and rock music was poorly served by such speakers, the results being slow and wooly bass and a complete lack of life.

There were exceptions but they were few, leaving the door open for more 'modern' designs to emerge in the early 1970s, giving a start to brands such as Monitor Audio and Celef (ProAc), among others.

 

[cisamcgu]

thanks for all this info - it is superb.

I will compare the Dentons and Dittons and let you know what I find

 

[davedotco]

thanks for all this info - it is superb.

I will compare the Dentons and Dittons and let you know what I find

If you get the chance to try the Dittons on low stands I would be really interested in your views.

 

[cisamcgu]

I have the Dentons on a pair of 59cm Apollo stands - I will put the Dittons on the same (since I don't have any others) and also try then on a some heavy slabs - I'll see what develops.

Thanks for all your input - it is very encouraging.

 

[davedotco]

I have the Dentons on a pair of 59cm Apollo stands - I will put the Dittons on the same (since I don't have any others) and also try then on a some heavy slabs - I'll see what develops.

Thanks for all your input - it is very encouraging.

Playing about with different equipment is good fun, helps you find out what does and does no work or make a difference, invaluable I think.

I no longer have access to the range of equipment that I once did, which is a shame as I would love to try out some of the recommendations on here for myself.

 

[cisamcgu]

Well, I picked up the Dittons oday, and lo and behold, they came witgh an Armstrong 526 tuner and a Pioneer P-12 TT

I have had a VERY brief listen to the Dittons and the sounded full, rich but slightly "thick" compared to the Dentons, but I shall give them a week or two to convince me to keep them or move them on. The tuner seems very old, and has rather odd loudspeaker inputs - so it may be not even usable. The TT, as far as I know, works - but has no plug on the power lead so I will have to dig one up from somewhere to test it. The arm has a Shure cartridge but also has some strange thing at the rear - it looks like a weight should be hanging over a metal arm or something - I'll try and post a picture later if I can - but either way the weight is missing

It looks like this http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=517593

So, this TT maybe unusable too unless I can work out what the weight thingy is. :?

Anyone, once I have formed an opinion about the speakers I will let you know.

Thanks Andrew

 

[cisamcgu]

Just tested the Pioneer turntable. The motor works but the belt was pershished to point that it was in 3 different bits. so I cannot test anything else. I doubt it is worth me spending any money on it given that a new belt will cost £5-£10 and it will need the little weight and maybe something else - so I guess I'll have to find someone who might want it - if anyone wants a Pioneer PL12 AC, and is happy to pick it up in Merseyside, let me know (you can also have the Armstrong 526 amplifier too )

Andrew

 

[nopiano]

The PL12 is more likely to be the PL12D if it came with the old Armstrong, in which case that model had an outrigger weight, notionally to balance the bearing load with the S-shaped tone arm. I found it better removed as it lowered the mass.

If your model is identical to the one in your pic then that us the anti skate which us a more significant omission.

 

[davedotco]

Hi,

If your player is the one in the photo it is a PL12AC. This was the much rarer predessor to the iconic PL12D, has a 'J' shaped arm rather than the 'S' shape and the wire 'hook' is for a small hanging weight to set the bias correction. It is clear in the photo you link to, it is around 1970/71.

This is quite a rare player and might be desirable in some quarters but I doubt it is worth anything, if you wanred to get it running an inexpensive magnetic cartridge such as an AT95E and a belt can be had for about £30.

The Armstrong 500 series was the last product from this famous company and though rather liked in some quarters was poorly built and finished compared to the early japanese product then entering the market. Be rather surprised to find one in full working order.

 

[dansettemajor]

The 600 range was the last Armstrong range. It was a long, low, quite sleek design. It ran from 1973 to around 1978. Generally well reviewd in the hifi press at the time.

 

[davedotco]

The 600 range was the last Armstrong range. It was a long, low, quite sleek design. It ran from 1973 to around 1978. Generally well reviewd in the hifi press at the time.

Quite right, my mistake.

The 600 series was the one I was thinking of, black fascia with piano key type switches, amplifier and tuner as half width units, recievers were full width.

Innovative and well reviewed, they were poorly made and unreliable in the real world, had a modest following among enthusists but the shops did not like them as they were always 'in for service'.

 

[cisamcgu]

Well, I have listened intently to the vintage speakers : Denton and Ditton, and they definately have different characteristics....

Source : REGA Planar 3 TT and Denon M30 CDT

Amp : NAD 316

The Dentons - the words I would use to describe them (remember this is only in comparison to the Dittons) are tight, sharp, empty, light, thin. They sound good, at least to my untrained ears, but they lack something in fullness and warmth. The sound thin I suppose in comparison to the Dittons which are a much richer, deeper, warmer sound - but - I would say they, the dittons, lack detail and clarity - the music sound just a little "mushed". Neither of them are as good (asuming my memory is good) as the MA Silver I heard a few weeks ago in a dealers.

So, the Dentons are clean, bright, sharp but maybe a little thin, the Dittons are full, warm, engrossing, but perhaps somwhat muffled

Not sure which I like really

Andrew

 

[davedotco]

Neither speaker is particularly accurate by modern standards.

Your preference will depend on what you think to the bass performance of the Ditton 15.

Personally I find the added warmth, which, in the main, has little to do with the music being played makes the speaker unlistenable.

However some feel very differently about this...... 8)

 

[spoonthumb]

There are many many reviews on many bits of hi fi equipment by so many different guys in so many different rooms with so many different amps and DAC's and cables and different sources and different music preferences etc that is so difficult to appreciate the review without thinking that the conclusions would be different if the setup was in my room using my equipment and my music preferences. When I read reviews about equipment that I have I can't help thinking that the review is flawed because it is so biased because of the amps, sources etc it's hooked up to and above all else it's not taking into account that we can't hook it up to a Bryston etc. Sometimes we have inferior amps, cd players DAC's but are looking for a great pair of speakers. Also there is the room itself. I have 3 pairs of the same speakers in 3 different rooms and I could write 3 different reviews on them. I have 3 different sets of speakers in my tiny music room alone and the ones I love the most are the ones that suit me most at tha time and mostly they happen to be the oldest too. I guess though that if one of the WHAT HI-FI specialists came to my room and listened to my set up they would cringe and say it's rubbish. To me what I have is the best I have ever had but it's not what I want. I know that if I had 100,000 pounds to spend on it that I'd be closer to perfection but I don't. So basically what I am trying to say is that if you are trying to choose what is best then get it in your room hook it up to your stuff and listen to it there because in another room it will sound so different you might not like it in yours. I appreciate what the reviewers are up against and it's tough giving us an idea of what the equipment is like taking into account that we all have different set ups. For that I am gratefull to you all. But for people reading reviews in the forums you shold take what you read with a pinch of salt. The pro's appreciate the fact that you all have different likes and dislikes. For me the Celestion Ditton 15's have a puchy warm and deep base that suits me just fine and I prefer them often to my Monitor Audio Bronze 2 or my Mordaunt Short Avant 902 i's. I love so many different types of music from so many different sources that there would never be a perfect system for what I need.