CD vs vinyl playback

[Entrigo]

So - not quite yet another version of "is vinyl or CD better" - though it might sound like. Just more of an observation/ question/ rant etc.

Recently upgraded my CD player from a Marantz CD6005 to a SA8005CD.

Now, with the CD6005, SQ and general enjoyment I got from my records was overall better. But since upgrading this changed dramatically - and not with SACD, even lowly bog-standard CDs. I was listening to Nick Cave Lazarus Dig Yourself last night and the dynamics, separation, clarity was sublime, and above what I get from any records with my current set up. And that is my doubt/question/ rant whatever...

Looking at specs and prices, my vinyl and CD playback set ups should be at least even - if not strongly in favour of my TT set up:
Turntable £1100, Cartridge £250, phono stage £560 - total £1900 (RRP)
CD Player I think RRP was £1000 if not less max

I remember someone a while ago commenting that, to get the same SQ as a CD, you need an MC cartridge (so add another at least £2/300). Would mean that, to get the same SQ as a CD from a vinyl, one would need a set up costing more than double - if not three time - than a CD player (for example, with my older setup, the overall ration was more like 5/1 cost-wise).

I love vinyl (and am a bit of a collector as well), so I have found this genuinely disappointing...

Can someone cheer me up? 😆

And maybe recommend a good but reasonable MC cartridge that could elevate record playback to CD levels (maybe an AT-33PTGII)?? Can't quite afford to upgrade my TT to a £2/3K on (yet)...

 

[daytona600]

vinyl or CD better
Records are better - Analogue recording , Analogue Mastering , Analogue Tape preview
Vinyl & CD both use the same digital File 16/44 or 24/96 as a source

Sir Cave Which pressing ? Most NC records shine on a decent TT
1st press or re-masters can affect fidelity by a huge margin

 

[Entrigo]

vinyl or CD better
Records are better - Analogue recording , Analogue Mastering , Analogue Tape preview
Vinyl & CD both use the same digital File 16/44 or 24/96 as a source

Sir Cave Which pressing ? Most NC records shine on a decent TT
1st press or re-masters can affect fidelity by a huge margin

I would like to think vinyl is better... But getting serious doubts 🙄.

I also did an A-B-C comparison of DSOTM - 1st UK pressing (solid blue) vs SACD vs 192khz stream and sadly, the vinyl was my least favourite. A bit dull in comparison (OK might be my vinyl that has a bit of wear) and on the track I compared (Us and Them) the SACD and digital dug out much more texture on the bass, for example.

I have not compared "Lazarus" to a vinyl (don't have it on LP - currently in one of my many Discogs baskets haha).

But have two recent records represses which came with CD (The Cure Wish and Whipping Boy Heartworm) so I assume the quality of vinyl and CD should be similar - and in this case, both vinyl are NM and hardly played.

Will do a bit of an A/B tonight...

 

[manicm]

I would like to think vinyl is better... But getting serious doubts 🙄.

I also did an A-B-C comparison of DSOTM - 1st UK pressing (solid blue) vs SACD vs 192khz stream and sadly, the vinyl was my least favourite. A bit dull in comparison (OK might be my vinyl that has a bit of wear) and on the track I compared (Us and Them) the SACD and digital dug out much more texture on the bass, for example.

I have not compared "Lazarus" to a vinyl (don't have it on LP - currently in one of my many Discogs baskets haha).

But have two recent records represses which came with CD (The Cure Wish and Whipping Boy Heartworm) so I assume the quality of vinyl and CD should be similar - and in this case, both vinyl are NM and hardly played.

Will do a bit of an A/B tonight...

Would you still recommend the Marantz CD60?

 

[Entrigo]

Would you still recommend the Marantz CD60?

I have not heard the CD 60 - I remember @matthewpianist commenting on a thread I stared when I first thought about upgrading and saying the CD60 wasn't much different from the CD6007 - if that is the case, and assuming the CD6007 to be very similar to the CD6005 - I would strongly recommend looking for a SA8005 on the second hand market.

 

[daytona600]

Source , Recording engineer , Mastering engineer much more important than format
how to cut a Record AAA 100% analogue
No semiconductors , No computer , No Digital

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAj22g8MWkw&t=6s

 

[Friesiansam]

Which is better, vinyl or CD, analogue or digital, has been done to death and, a bit more.

People are never going to agree so, as I've said before, just go with what makes you happy.

 

[Entrigo]

Which is better, vinyl or CD, analogue or digital, has been done to death and, a bit more.

People are never going to agree so, as I've said before, just go with what makes you happy.

Well that is the thing. I thought vinyl all the way but now I feel like the ground gave way under my feet 😆

 

[good_enough]

I had a very similar experience - had a Marantz CD6000SE, upgraded to a Roksan K3 CD, result was a far better sound from my CD than my turntable (a Linn Axis).

I started on an odyssey that had me repower the turntable with a Hercules II (about 200 quid) and have ended up with a Hana SH just upgraded to a Mk 2 (another 650).

Now happily back in balance and loving both - but net is that I spent as much on improvements to my TT as I did on the CD itself, to get back where I was not disappointed by either.

And yes I recommend Hana - you may find the EH more affordable. My SH is 'in the room' transparent. There are those here who claim a HO MC isn't worth it but it's not 'all or nothing'. They still have lower moving mass than their MM equivalents, just not as low as a LO. And you can use them with a MM phono stage - which I presume you have.

If you want to go the whole hog to a LOMC and associated phono stage, you'll also find Hana featuring heavily in Stereophile's recommended components (which as I've written elsewhere, I take a lot more seriously than WHF on vinyl matters).

One thing to mention is that the phono stage is as important. On a previous upgrade journey going from Creek to a Roksan K2 amp, the improvement in vinyl sound was night and day. My current K3 amp is even better.

 

[Entrigo]

I had a very similar experience - had a Marantz CD6000SE, upgraded to a Roksan K3 CD, result was a far better sound from my CD than my turntable (a Linn Axis).

I started on an odyssey that had me repower the turntable with a Hercules II (about 200 quid) and have ended up with a Hana SH just upgraded to a Mk 2 (another 650).

Now happily back in balance and loving both - but net is that I spent as much on improvements to my TT as I did on the CD itself, to get back where I was not disappointed by either.

And yes I recommend Hana - you may find the EH more affordable. My SH is 'in the room' transparent. There are those here who claim a HO MC isn't worth it but it's not 'all or nothing'. They still have lower moving mass than their MM equivalents, just not as low as a LO. And you can use them with a MM phono stage - which I presume you have.

If you want to go the whole hog to a LOMC and associated phono stage, you'll also find Hana featuring heavily in Stereophile's recommended components (which as I've written elsewhere, I take a lot more seriously than WHF on vinyl matters).

One thing to mention is that the phono stage is as important. On a previous upgrade journey going from Creek to a Roksan K2 amp, the improvement in vinyl sound was night and day. My current K3 amp is even better.

Yes good call - I was looking at some Hana carts on eBay a few weeks ago; I can't remember the models but they varied from £600 to £1000 (my TT was £1k list price 😆 - and anyway a £1k cart would probably be overkill). I have a MM/MC phono stage but, according to reviews, "less convincing with MC". So possibly a HOMC might be the best option.

Lots to ponder. A full deck upgrade is out of the question - it wouldn't be just the turntable, also the cartridge and phono stage would have to be upgraded to the same level, but a better cartridge is a good starting point.

 

[Entrigo]

Source , Recording engineer , Mastering engineer much more important than format
how to cut a Record AAA 100% analogue
No semiconductors , No computer , No Digital

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAj22g8MWkw&t=6s

Really interesting video.

That said, as I mentioned earlier, also did a side by side with a 1st pressing or Dark Side of the Moon - definitely analogue - and a SACD and the latter sounded much clearer and more detailed... 🤷‍♂️

 

[Jasonovich]

As much as I admire those of you for your commitment and enthusiasm to vinyl, it goes way beyond the remit of HiFi, it is very much a lifestyle and; it must be said, I take great pleasure listening to the snap crackle and pop but only my cereal for breakfast.
It's like hail Mary and lashing your back with a whip but I raise my glass to you, true love is always painful.

I think, CD/SACD and DSD is the lazy man's hifi, why all the ruffle man? Do I want to spend 10 minutes cleaning the vinyl and another 20 minutes turning over the vinyl and racing back to the sofa, I mean f'kthat, still, I can't stop being sentimental.

I was at Cambridge last Saturday, on visit to the shopping arcade, market seller in the square, was selling LPs, thousands and thousands. I don't own a turntable but I was in a trance, ravaging through storage box's like a dog on heat.

Half an hour later, missus getting very impatient because I was messing up her plan.



I picked up Lou Reed's Transformer album, no my Marantz doesn't have a needle.
'Can I help you..................No just looking'
When I got home I ordered the CD album. Sort of ironic I had to look at an LP cover to order the CD.

It took me back when I was a kid, always looking for the special album, you can't erase memories.

 

[Friesiansam]

Well that is the thing. I thought vinyl all the way but now I feel like the ground gave way under my feet 😆

Nothing wrong with changing your preference.

 

[abacus]

It is not possible for vinyl to ever be better than CD, as its capabilities fall well short in comparison, however the format the content is on is a bit of an irrelevance really, as it all comes down to the master and how it was recorded onto the format.
A great master on vinyl is brilliant, a great master on CD is even better, however a bad master on CD will always sound worse than a great master on vinyl. (Due to the superiority of CD all the bad mix of the master stands out like a sore thumb)
BTW: If you record a vinyl record (Using quality equipment) onto a CD, you will not be able to tell the difference, no matter how much you spend on a turntable combination, due to the superior quality of the CD format.
Vinyl is a mechanical format and like all things mechanical it costs a lot of money to improve.
A CD is basically a laser and digital electronics which are relatively cheap to produce, with the biggest difference being the internal DAC and associated components, this is why if you have a good quality CD player with a digital out, all you need to do to improve the sound is to buy a better-quality external DAC, not change the player.

Bill

 

[Entrigo]

As much as I admire those of you for your commitment and enthusiasm to vinyl, it goes way beyond the remit of HiFi, it is very much a lifestyle and; it must be said, I take great pleasure listening to the snap crackle and pop but only my cereal for breakfast.
It's like hail Mary and lashing your back with a whip but I raise my glass to you, true love is always painful.

I think, CD/SACD and DSD is the lazy man's hifi, why all the ruffle man? Do I want to spend 10 minutes cleaning the vinyl and another 20 minutes turning over the vinyl and racing back to the sofa, I mean f'kthat, still, I can't stop being sentimental.

I was at Cambridge last Saturday, on visit to the shopping arcade, market seller in the square, was selling LPs, thousands and thousands. I don't own a turntable but I was in a trance, ravaging through storage box's like a dog on heat.

Half an hour later, missus getting very impatient because I was messing up her plan.

View attachment 8709

I picked up Lou Reed's Transformer album, no my Marantz doesn't have a needle.
'Can I help you..................No just looking'
When I got home I ordered the CD album. Sort of ironic I had to look at an LP cover to order the CD.

It took me back when I was a kid, always looking for the special album, you can't erase memories.

Yes there is definitely the "romantic" element of it and the lifestyle choice of being a vinyl lover - and I am sure I will not lose that. I also love the "collector side" of vinyl, the searching and finding a first pressing vinyl from back to the time the album came out, and the thrill of finding a copy at a bargain price (mostly when a auction listing goes under the radar on eBay - nigh on impossible in shops).

And of course the flicking through crates is unmatched - though I nowadays buy 90% of my records online.

 

[Entrigo]

Nothing wrong with changing your preference.

Ah yes, I have no trouble with change - I actually love change as I get very bored with routine. It is just mildly disappointing as I love the whole world around vinyl, the lifestyle, the little rituals etc.

I am sure it's also just a temporary thing - regardless of whether I will burrow deeper into the upgrade rabbit hole or not, I will continue to love vinyl...

 

[Entrigo]

It is not possible for vinyl to ever be better than CD, as its capabilities fall well short in comparison, however the format the content is on is a bit of an irrelevance really, as it all comes down to the master and how it was recorded onto the format.
A great master on vinyl is brilliant, a great master on CD is even better, however a bad master on CD will always sound worse than a great master on vinyl. (Due to the superiority of CD all the bad mix of the master stands out like a sore thumb)
BTW: If you record a vinyl record (Using quality equipment) onto a CD, you will not be able to tell the difference, no matter how much you spend on a turntable combination, due to the superior quality of the CD format.
Vinyl is a mechanical format and like all things mechanical it costs a lot of money to improve.
A CD is basically a laser and digital electronics which are relatively cheap to produce, with the biggest difference being the internal DAC and associated components, this is why if you have a good quality CD player with a digital out, all you need to do to improve the sound is to buy a better-quality external DAC, not change the player.

Bill

Yes that makes a lot of sense... It is basically down to your lifestyle choice. If you care only about SQ then buy the best CD player you can get and stock up on CDs - you will still spend considerably less than to do the same thing for vinyl.

I guess I do still love the whole "wraparound" of vinyl playback so will most likely continue to enjoy both.

 

[ianrjones]

I bought a new CD player because I do not have a TT, or come to that No L.P.'s either.

 

[Entrigo]

Never too late to buy one!

 

[Integralista]

Hi, thanks a lot for opening this happy topic. I own both CD and Vinyl (Two Rega spinners). I like, love them both. Both are very good. If I must decide, I prefere vinyl simply due to its fluid, "taste" of history and respect for mechanical engineering remembering Edison age. On the other side, there will come a day, when I buy a streamer. I hope it will be a Rega streamer or happy streamer. 😂

 

[Freddy58]

CD v Vinyl, the age old question. Just my opinion. I’m a bit of a numb skull with regards the ‘numbers’, and quite frankly I’m not interested, I can only relate my own experience. When it comes to dynamic range, vinyl can’t possibly compete with CD’s. Indeed, I have CD’s that would see the needle jumping out of the groove in an attempt to keep up. Anything on the Telarc label will highlight this. OTOH, I have vinyls that sound so much better than their CD counterparts. For instance, I have Bowie albums on both CD and vinyl, and the vinyls have a presence found lacking on CD. Of course, to get the best out of vinyl generally requires a significant outlay. £’s invested v SQ is definitely in favour of CD, imo. Also, if I want to try listening to something new, it’s easy to just open Spotify and get a fairly faithful reproduction. I would therefore say that I’m fairly open to listen to all methods of listening to music. But, when it comes to experiencing music in a session, not track skipping, albums in their entirety, the medium has to be vinyl, there’s just something wonderful about it.

 

[Entrigo]

Hi, thanks a lot for opening this happy topic. I own both CD and Vinyl (Two Rega spinners). I like, love them both. Both are very good. If I must decide, I prefere vinyl simply due to its fluid, "taste" of history and respect for mechanical engineering remembering Edison age. On the other side, there will come a day, when I buy a streamer. I hope it will be a Rega streamer or happy streamer. 😂

Haha yeah debated whether to or not but decided to go for it 🤣.

I still love vinyl for the reasons you mentioned, I think it's just that every time I listen to CDs (which I didn't do often with my old disc spinner) I am shocked at the dynamics etc..

But hey! It's all good - not a war and a very happy problem to have.

 

[Entrigo]

CD v Vinyl, the age old question. Just my opinion. I’m a bit of a numb skull with regards the ‘numbers’, and quite frankly I’m not interested, I can only relate my own experience. When it comes to dynamic range, vinyl can’t possibly compete with CD’s. Indeed, I have CD’s that would see the needle jumping out of the groove in an attempt to keep up. Anything on the Telarc label will highlight this. OTOH, I have vinyls that sound so much better than their CD counterparts. For instance, I have Bowie albums on both CD and vinyl, and the vinyls have a presence found lacking on CD. Of course, to get the best out of vinyl generally requires a significant outlay. £’s invested v SQ is definitely in favour of CD, imo. Also, if I want to try listening to something new, it’s easy to just open Spotify and get a fairly faithful reproduction. I would therefore say that I’m fairly open to listen to all methods of listening to music. But, when it comes to experiencing music in a session, not track skipping, albums in their entirety, the medium has to be vinyl, there’s just something wonderful about it.

Agree 100%

 

[Steve983]

Maybe it's not about which is best but which you prefer. Back in the day when vinyl was king I used to record my LP's onto TDK Chrome cassettes and then replay those because I always thought the tape playback sounded better. It gave the music a brighter sound with more attack and lost the warmer sometimes muddy sound of vinyl. I guess I didn't know it at the time but I was kind of remastering the sound. A lot depends on the original sound production of the album but also the mastering and individual pressing of the LP, so many things in the chain had to go right for vinyl to sound good.

I still have my Rega turntable from 40 years ago and it still works fine. I still have most of my old vinyl collection too plus quite a few new ones but CD is much preferred by me.

 

[Jasonovich]

SACD is a big step forward from CD and DSD > 2.8 million sampling is better still.
Vinyl is a lifestyle, it has a physical presence, it gives you a sense of ownership.
Making comparison with digital media misses the point and strikes me as tribalism.
The two can coexist, they bring different things to the listener.