Can we hear sound above 20kHz!

[podknocker]

Most of the time you can trust measurements more than your ears. Your ears are connected to your brain which can be tricked by all sorts of things.

Certainly can. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shepard_tone

 

[ToppingSMSL]

In context to my reply, the previous gentleman said he would prefer not to hear those harmonics in higher frequencies, and I just said that's detail. So not necessarily what you can't hear, but what's rolled off that you can hear.

And your assertion that many tweeters cannot handle high frequencies well there are many that have paper specs reaching to 25khz. True high res requires 30khz.

"Detail" is generally the 8 to 10kHz range. There isnt much up around 20kHz in most music. In the experiment they cherry picked a particular instrument.

 

[Jasonovich]

Listening to that via an iPad I can hear similarly, but it must harmonic distortion. Were you using headphones?

Yes, the planars.

Got me thinking. What if the frequency limit of your speakers or headphones are less than your own hearing capability? If that holds true, then our hearing is set by the limitations of the speakers or the frequency limitations of the recorded music.

Though to be honest, I haven't geeked out, I have no idea of the frequency limitations on my speakers or headphones but does it really matter?

 

[manicm]

"Detail" is generally the 8 to 10kHz range. There isnt much up around 20kHz in most music. In the experiment they cherry picked a particular instrument.

There are instruments that reach beyond 10khz, some brass for example, I would prefer to have that headroom instead of potential roll-off.

 

[Jasonovich]

Food for thought. Love the Adam T-shirt 🙂

View: https://youtu.be/03ggUm1kjuQ?si=kvfMlqaYodO2OD2Q

 

[Vincent Kars]

What if the frequency limit of your speakers or headphones are less than your own hearing capability?

You will loose treble and impulse response.
You can emulate it a bit, get an EQ and roll of the treble at a value below the upper limit of your hearing.

 

[AJM1981]

A few problems with this experiment.

They didn't find out if it was the frequencies just above 20kHz or all the way up to 100kHz which were important.

Many people are known to be able to hear above 20kHz - I could hear at least 21kHz when I tested my hearing at 18. Also if you turn the volume way up almost anyone can hear above 20kHz.

So there is more to investigate as it may just be down to us being able to hear only slightly above the 20kHz. Also most music doesn't contain anything of note up that high. In the experiment they used one particular instrument to get harmonics up at 100kHz. Who listens to music with that instrument playing?

Generally, the range of human hearing spans 0 decibels (dB) to 120-130 dB. The human hearing range in Hz (hertz) usually includes sounds between 20 Hz and 20,000 Hz (20 kHz). While the upper limit for the average adult is 20,000 Hz, the highest-pitched sounds most people can hear fall between 15,000 to 17,000.
—
claiming that you could once hear beyond 20.000hz is a personal claim.

As there is not any need for any professional hearing test at younger age if there are ‘no’ signs of hearing loss, the claim falls short. Also it seems highly unlikely that they have performed any tests on claims of being superior. It for sure is a nice anecdote, though it does not really hold up in reality. I would give you the benefit of the doubt that it could have been somewhere closer to the 20000 hz cap, as in beyond the average. Also given the following quote:

—
The highest frequency humans can hear is 20,000hz. And those who can hear that high of frequency are very rare, and probably very young.

—-

I remember the CRT pitch sound as some adults couldn’t hear and some younger ones could. Or better called the Flyback transformer of a CRT TV.

—-

The CRT sound was between 15,625 and 15,734Hz which is high enough that you almost certainly lose it as you get older. It now lives only in our minds. The responsible component in the CRT is probably the flyback transformer.

 

[ToppingSMSL]

Generally, the range of human hearing spans 0 decibels (dB) to 120-130 dB. The human hearing range in Hz (hertz) usually includes sounds between 20 Hz and 20,000 Hz (20 kHz). While the upper limit for the average adult is 20,000 Hz, the highest-pitched sounds most people can hear fall between 15,000 to 17,000.
—
claiming that you could once hear beyond 20.000hz is a personal claim.

As there is not any need for any professional hearing test at younger age if there are ‘no’ signs of hearing loss, the claim falls short. Also it seems highly unlikely that they have performed any tests on claims of being superior. It for sure is a nice anecdote, though it does not really hold up in reality. I would give you the benefit of the doubt that it could have been somewhere closer to the 20000 hz cap, as in beyond the average. Also given the following quote:

—
The highest frequency humans can hear is 20,000hz. And those who can hear that high of frequency are very rare, and probably very young.

—-

I remember the CRT pitch sound as some adults couldn’t hear and some younger ones could. Or better called the Flyback transformer of a CRT TV.

—-

The CRT sound was between 15,625 and 15,734Hz which is high enough that you almost certainly lose it as you get older. It now lives only in our minds. The responsible component in the CRT is probably the flyback transformer.

It was a class test in a 1st year university module (psychology) and I was the only one with my hand still raised at 21kHz. Of course it's a personal claim as are most things people spout on the internet, Deary me.

 

[Vincent Kars]

with my hand still raised at 21kHz.

It is perfectly possible but one must be young and the SPL must be high.
With a SPL as strong as 110 even values in excess of 21 kHz are possible.....

https://pubs.aip.org/asa/jasa/article/122/3/EL52/852964/Hearing-thresholds-for-pure-tones-above-16kHz

 

[Ian AV]

Listening to that via an iPad I can hear similarly, but it must harmonic distortion. Were you using headphones?

Be careful with high frequency hearing tests, especially with headphones. The tendency is to up the volume to hear, but that's the best way to make yourself deaf or cause serious hearing loss.

 

[Ian AV]

It was a class test in a 1st year university module (psychology) and I was the only one with my hand still raised at 21kHz. Of course it's a personal claim as are most things people spout on the internet, Deary me.

It is highly unlikely that an adult can hear frequency to 20k. Only teenagers have any chance of that. It's just the biology of aging. 120dBA for more than an few seconds can cause permanent ear damage. 130dBA virtually guarantees it.

 

[podknocker]

Be careful with high frequency hearing tests, especially with headphones. The tendency is to up the volume to hear, but that's the best way to make yourself deaf or cause serious hearing loss.

I totally agree with this. The pointless experiment to hear really high frequencies can damage your hearing forever. I'm very careful with headphones and it's incredible how loud my Sennheisers will go when plugged into my new PC. If you think you have hearing issues, go to your GP, but don't turn up test tones, just to find out if you can still hear them. You won't get much above 10 kHz in your music anyway. Musicians and recording companies are not pushing sounds above 10 kHz , in the hope that people will be wanting this stuff, rather than just enjoying their tunes. It's pointless madness wanting to hear a really high frequency sine wave, rather than getting a great sound from your HIFI.

 

[ToppingSMSL]

It is highly unlikely that an adult can hear frequency to 20k. Only teenagers have any chance of that. It's just the biology of aging. 120dBA for more than an few seconds can cause permanent ear damage. 130dBA virtually guarantees it.

This is false. Show your sources. I was 18 at the time anyway (teenager).

Ear damage at loud volumes I'm not disputing. People go to music concerts at 120db though (not recommended).

 

[nopiano]

Be careful with high frequency hearing tests, especially with headphones. The tendency is to up the volume to hear, but that's the best way to make yourself deaf or cause serious hearing loss.

Indeed, and remember tweeters are delicate too, so keep volume below normal listening maximum when trying test tones or sweeps!

 

[nopiano]

Yes, the planars.

Got me thinking. What if the frequency limit of your speakers or headphones are less than your own hearing capability? If that holds true, then our hearing is set by the limitations of the speakers or the frequency limitations of the recorded music.

Though to be honest, I haven't geeked out, I have no idea of the frequency limitations on my speakers or headphones but does it really matter?

There’s not much useful musical info above 15kHz and that was the ceiling with FM radio, which along with LPs was the best source at home for decades. That was before CD, and now streaming, when I could hear CRT television line scan whistle and all manner of HF artefacts.

More important is the resonance and distortion behaviour at highest frequencies. Nobody likes gritty soprano voices or sibilant newsreaders.

One side benefit of hearing loss is the car sounds quieter, so less need to splash out on luxury models! And I can still hear almost everything in a full symphony orchestra, as the LSO’s Mahler 1 proved in Bristol on Thursday night! (The triangle is my upper limit, I reckon)

 

[manicm]

I totally agree with this. The pointless experiment to hear really high frequencies can damage your hearing forever. I'm very careful with headphones and it's incredible how loud my Sennheisers will go when plugged into my new PC. If you think you have hearing issues, go to your GP, but don't turn up test tones, just to find out if you can still hear them. You won't get much above 10 kHz in your music anyway. Musicians and recording companies are not pushing sounds above 10 kHz , in the hope that people will be wanting this stuff, rather than just enjoying their tunes. It's pointless madness wanting to hear a really high frequency sine wave, rather than getting a great sound from your HIFI.

Musicians are not interested in above 10khz, from where do you just pull out this nonsense?

 

[ToppingSMSL]

Musicians are not interested in above 10khz, from where do you just pull out this nonsense?

There isnt much musical information the higher up you go there. When headphone manufacturures want their designs to sound "detailed" they sometimes add a treble peak in the 8kHz to 10kHz range. Common with expensive headphones.

 

[podknocker]

Musicians are not interested in above 10khz, from where do you just pull out this nonsense?

Most instruments and their synth analogs don't produce much above 10 kHz. I will guarantee 95% of the music you listen to falls below 10 kHz. Violins, cymbals and a few other percussive instruments produce harmonics up to a possible 15 kHz. There may be a few weird synth sounds above 15 kHz, but these are going to sound awful. What the hell do you listen to all day, smoke alarms?

https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/attachments/car-entertainment/330913d1271424698-frequency-range-chart-reference-various-musical-instruments-freqrange.jpg

Red bar is tone and yellow is harmonics. There is very little out there producing above 10 kHz. I can also guarantee the last thing musicians and recording companies are thinking is 'let's get some 10 to 20 kHz material on there to give people earache. I can't imagine anyone booking a recording studio for a day any delibarately recording instruments, or synth patches, above 15 kHz. The majority of music is natural instruments and electronic sounds emulating these instruments. There's very little above 15 kHz because it sounds awful and many people would find it a bit distracting to say the least. Humans can hear up to 20 kHz and I can hear up to 14 kHz at 55 but these frequencies don't appear in the majority of recordings.

 

[davidf]

Also if you turn the volume way up almost anyone can hear above 20kHz.

It's got to be in line with other frequencies though - boosting a frequency doesn't count. Everyone has a natural roll off from out general hearing capabilities.

 

[davidf]

There isnt much musical information the higher up you go there. When headphone manufacturures want their designs to sound "detailed" they sometimes add a treble peak in the 8kHz to 10kHz range. Common with expensive headphones.

Harmonics.

 

[podknocker]

Harmonics.

Yes, there are harmonics produced by most instruments and their electronic synth analogs, but most harmonics don't go above 10 kHz and only up to 15 kHz occasionaly. As I mentioned above, how many CDs are recordings of smoke alarms, with thier harmonics captured for our listening pleasure?

 

[davidf]

Exactly.

Nobody listens to the instrument they used in the experiment.

Loudspeaker tweeters dont tend to go that high.

There just isnt a great deal of information in music even at 20kHz

If you listen to a string quartet, there will be plenty of energy above our hearing, and it will affect the frequencies we can hear. Remove those frequencies we cannot hear and the whole thing will sound different.

 

[davidf]

Yes, there ar harmonics produced by most instruments and their electronic synth copies, but most harmonics don't go above 10 kHz and only up to 15 kHz occasionaly. As I mentioned above, how many CDs are recordings of smoke alarms, with thier harmonics captured for our listening pleasure?

Pioneer's compact disc player from the 90s used Legato Link technology, which attempted to recreate harmonics lost by the CD's brick wall format - they certainly sounded different to other players.

There was a video on YouTube of a record played on a cheap turntable (sub £200) which graphically showed energy way above 20kHz.

 

[davidf]

For me this discussion is verging on a moot point, and whilst you may be luckier, a while back I was in my dealers demo room listening to the various expensive items of hifi equipment that I was considering buying, when the young shop assistant joined me and commented on how much more ‘hiss’ was audible with one system vs the other, he went on to explain that he couldn’t understand how his older boss could listen to some very old recordings for the same reason.

It was in that moment that I realised that I could not trust my ears.

What? You couldn't trust your ears because someone else said there was more hiss?! It doesn't matter what anyone else can hear, you can only go by what YOU hear. If you resign yourself to being inadequate because others can hear higher than you, then it's pointless listening to anything.

 

[davidf]

Most of the time you can trust measurements more than your ears. Your ears are connected to your brain which can be tricked by all sorts of things.

You're limiting yourself.