Can we hear sound above 20kHz!

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I suspect, if the amplitude is great enough, we might be able to detect higher frequencies through our finger tips.
Quoting one of my posts from elsewhere - I suspect that if so we'd be in trouble!

Reading a book about the extremes in nature/physics etc. The one on loudness is interesting. The French Horn is the loudest unamplified instrument, and a third of players under 40 have some related hearing loss. Something like Saturn V taking off is around 200dB, whereas Krakatoa or Tunguska were reckoned to be between 300-315dB*. Above 160dB at close range is apparently 'probably not survivable'.

*Being near anything like this would not only blow your eardrums, but also pulverise organs and shatter bones.
 

Friesiansam

Well-known member
Quoting one of my posts from elsewhere - I suspect that if so we'd be in trouble!

Reading a book about the extremes in nature/physics etc. The one on loudness is interesting. The French Horn is the loudest unamplified instrument, and a third of players under 40 have some related hearing loss. Something like Saturn V taking off is around 200dB, whereas Krakatoa or Tunguska were reckoned to be between 300-315dB*. Above 160dB at close range is apparently 'probably not survivable'.

*Being near anything like this would not only blow your eardrums, but also pulverise organs and shatter bones.
There is always a downside!
 
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AJM1981

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just get a gradually tone sweep test and listen to when everything fades. Then any notice of instruments that might have overtones beyond that range (rarely utilized) makes no sense to mention in the context of needing a tweeter that goes beyond our range of hearing.
 

Roog

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Just my thoughts on this. Humans evolved so that the strongest and most agile survived and that included hearing predators before they jumped on us and ate us.

We didn't evolve sufficiently to hear bats echo locating , possibly because they don't pose a threat.

Given the short time cymbals have coexisted with us and the infrequent exposure and the actual threat they pose to us, I cant imagine that we have yet had time to evolve to hear cymbals at their best!

HiFi just hasn't been in our lives for long enough for us to require super human hearing. Our senses were 'not designed' for our short lived modern life.

Similarly we have evolved to have good colour daytime vision and not to have good high vision because we choose to hide away when its dark?
 

manicm

Well-known member
Just my thoughts on this. Humans evolved so that the strongest and most agile survived and that included hearing predators before they jumped on us and ate us.

We didn't evolve sufficiently to hear bats echo locating , possibly because they don't pose a threat.

Given the short time cymbals have coexisted with us and the infrequent exposure and the actual threat they pose to us, I cant imagine that we have yet had time to evolve to hear cymbals at their best!

HiFi just hasn't been in our lives for long enough for us to require super human hearing. Our senses were 'not designed' for our short lived modern life.

Similarly we have evolved to have good colour daytime vision and not to have good high vision because we choose to hide away when its dark?

We perhaps can't hear above 20khz frequencies in isolation, but we can certainly feel it. Psycho acoustic experts think so, especially when combined with other sounds at lower frequencies.

And I want to stress again, there are relatively few true high res compatible hifi systems out there. Amps and speakers must be capable of reproducing above 30khz for example.
 

GeoffreyW

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I have a speaker test L.P. record issued by JBL, where a demonstration is provided on just this subject.
On one track sound is recorded normally, and on the second track all frequencies above 20 kHz are removed, and there is a noticeable difference.
Look the album out and try it yourself. At the time I couldn't hear frequencies above 14 kHz.
 
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podknocker

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I have a speaker test L.P. record issued by JBL, where a demonstration is provided on just this subject.
On one track sound is recorded normally, and on the second track all frequencies above 20 kHz are removed, and there is a noticeable difference.
Look the album out and try it yourself. At the time I couldn't hear frequencies above 14 kHz.
There are also test tones on Spotify and I can still hear a 14kHz tone easily and I'm 55 although I'm not sure why you would want to hear this stuff in your music, as a direct tone, or a harmonic. Human hearing is most sensitive at the frequencies we need for hunting and running away from animals and obviously to hear other people talking. The rustling of leaves in a forest during autumn is a perfect example. Hearing a wild boar disturbing the leaf litter would give you an advantage. Nature has given humans a range of hearing most suitable to recognising running water and other natural sounds we tend to forget about in cities. I would love to live away from traffic, alarms and all the noise we've created in the last 200 years or so. People are obsessed with the technicality of hearing really high pitched sounds, rather than focus on their music. I never care or worry about 15 to 20kHz sounds I might be missing out on. Go and listen to a 13 or 14kHz test tone and work out how useful it would be in your favourite violin concerto. I'm certain a violin can produce notes above 13 or 14kHz, but musicians never had this in mind when writing music, because they also couldn't hear these really high notes and didn't care. Why do we care now? I remember hearing squeaky and whistling CRTs and capacitors as a kid, when visiting Wigfalls with my dad. I always wondered why I got headache when I went there and I was in my 20s before I realised the source of my discomfort. I'm sure there are many electrical items still producing stuff like this and I often wonder how cats and dogs cope, immersed in a world of electrical noise that's been around since Marconi.
 
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abacus

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I have a speaker test L.P. record issued by JBL, where a demonstration is provided on just this subject.
On one track sound is recorded normally, and on the second track all frequencies above 20 kHz are removed, and there is a noticeable difference.
Look the album out and try it yourself. At the time I couldn't hear frequencies above 14 kHz.
Most MM cartridges roll off after about 20-25Khz so no sounds will be produced, JVC (And 1 or 2 others) released special MM cartridges in the 70s that went up to around 50Khz as JVCs quadraphonic system used 30-45Khz for the rear channel sounds, (The quadraphonic receiver lowered the high frequency sounds down to the audio range for the rear speakers) MC cartridges on the other hand have no problem with high frequency's, so use one of these if you can still find the vinyl disc mentioned.

Bill
 

ToppingSMSL

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Oct 10, 2024
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A few problems with this experiment.

They didn't find out if it was the frequencies just above 20kHz or all the way up to 100kHz which were important.

Many people are known to be able to hear above 20kHz - I could hear at least 21kHz when I tested my hearing at 18. Also if you turn the volume way up almost anyone can hear above 20kHz.

So there is more to investigate as it may just be down to us being able to hear only slightly above the 20kHz. Also most music doesn't contain anything of note up that high. In the experiment they used one particular instrument to get harmonics up at 100kHz. Who listens to music with that instrument playing?
 
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manicm

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I'm not sure why you would want to hear this stuff in your music, as a direct tone, or a harmonic

You actually do when you're attentively listening to music. It's called detail. It can be the difference between enjoying the music or not.

When I'm working at my desk with laptop I listen to Lofi Girl, because I actually don't want to pay any attention to the music, but want something unobtrusive in the background.

But if I am then I want to be engaged, regardless of the genre. And therefore the sq must be adequate.
 

GeoffreyW

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Does this prove that we can perceive frequencies above 20 kHz or does this prove that filters can created substantial time smear inside our audible range?
I think it proves that we can detect the effect, if not the actual sound, and the effects of sound across most frequencies is something we enjoy listening to, isn't it?
Is it the audible equivalent of light frequencies? We can't see them but know that they're there, having an effect.
And my ears are 80 years old.
 

ToppingSMSL

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You actually do when you're attentively listening to music. It's called detail. It can be the difference between enjoying the music or not.

When I'm working at my desk with laptop I listen to Lofi Girl, because I actually don't want to pay any attention to the music, but want something unobtrusive in the background.

But if I am then I want to be engaged, regardless of the genre. And therefore the sq must be adequate.
What is called detail? Frequencies you cant hear?
 

podknocker

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CD can capture anything between 20 Hz and 20 kHz and many speakers can handle this range, but there can't be many musicians, or recording studios out there trying to give people very high frequencies in their music, because it's just annoying and really not pleasant to listen to. As I''ve said before, most music contains instruments producing sounds falling within the most sensitive region of human hearing. Speech, brass and woodwind, with strings and perscussion taking advantage of this also. Even synthesisers try to mimic these instruments and there can't be many people who enjoy really high pitched sounds, similar to many screeching birds and other annoying sounds. A CD full of birdcall, or mosquitos would drive me nuts. Birds screeching and squawking is obviously a response to a possible threat and this could have been beneficial to humans way back, but you wouldn't want to hear these sounds all the time. Being threatened all the time, or hearing animals responding to being threatened would be really stressful. Nature obviously feels we need to hear up to around 20 kHz, but does anyone really want to create music containing these really high pitched sounds? When the world was a quieter place, the ability to hear faint, high pitched sounds may have been useful, but as we've created a very noisy society and our sense of hearing is tuned to mainly unnatural sounds, there is possibly no longer a need, nor ability to hear these faint, natural sounds. Because the world is very noisy now, our hearing has become lazy and I think is no longer fine tuned to appreciate natural sounds. I try to appreciate peace and quiet when I can, but many people love noisy distractions all the time and their hearing may 'recalibrate' to a point where their sensitivity to natural sounds is diminished. I bet our ancenstors, half a million years ago could hear loads of stuff in the daytime and especially at night that nobody could pick up now. Having an ancestor from this period, dropped into the centre on my city would probably make them go nuts with all the loud and screechy mechanical and metal sounds, not to mention sirens. The very lowest frequencies are very difficult to detect. Elephants can detect earthquakes and distant thunder and move towards storms in the search for water. It's diffiicult to predict how human hearing will evolve, after 200 years of industry and vehicles and all sorts of other sounds competing for our attention. I often wonder how our senses will change and adapt over the next 100 generations, but I prefer natural, soothing sounds, like wind and rain and the sea etc. I don't go out of my way to find screechy, shrill and scary sounds in music and I'm sure most people feel the same way. Listening to test tones, wthin your hearing range is not useful if you don't need to respond to these sounds. Our speech and language and our relationship with other animals has defined where human hearing is most sensitive and useful. Brakes screeching and sirens are useful, but that's a very recent change in human society. There would be nothing like this half a million years ago, because you wouldn't be in a busy city centre, surrounded by modern, metal threats etc.
 
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ToppingSMSL

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CD can capture anything between 20 Hz and 20 kHz and many speakers can handle this range, but there can't be many musicians, or recording studios out there trying to give people very high frequencies in their music, because it's just annoying and really not pleasant to listen to. As I''ve said before, most music contains instruments producing sounds falling within the most sensitive region of human hearing. Speech, brass and woodwind, with strings and perscussion taking advantage of this also. Even synthesisers try to mimic these instruments and there can't be many people who enjoy really high pitched sounds, similar to many screeching birds and other annoying sounds. A CD full of birdcall, or mosquitos would drive me nuts. Birds screeching and squawking is obviously a response to a possible threat and this could have been beneficial to humans way back, but you wouldn't want to hear these sounds all the time. Being threatened all the time, or hearing animals responding to being threatened would be really stressful. Nature obviously feels we need to hear up to around 20 kHz, but does anyone really want to create music containing these really high pitched sounds? When the world was a quieter place, the ability to hear faint, high pitched sounds may have been useful, but as we've created a very noisy society and our sense of hearing is tuned to mainly unnatural sounds, there is possibly no longer a need, nor ability to hear these faint, natural sounds. Because the world is very noisy now, our hearing has become lazy and I think is no longer fine tuned to appreciate natural sounds. I try to appreciate peace and quiet when I can, but many people love noisy distractions all the time and their hearing may 'recalibrate' to a point where their sensitivity to natural sounds is diminished. I bet our ancenstors, half a million years ago could hear loads of stuff in the daytime and especially at night that nobody could pick up now. Having an ancestor from this period, dropped into the centre on my city would probably make them go nuts with all the loud and screechy mechanical and metal sounds, not to mention sirens. The very lowest frequencies are very difficult to detect. Elephants can detect earthquakes and distant thunder and move towards storms in the search for water. It's diffiicult to predict how human hearing will evolve, after 200 years of industry and vehicles and all sorts of other sounds competing for our attention. I often wonder how our senses will change and adapt over the next 100 generations, but I prefer natural, soothing sounds, like wind and rain and the sea etc. I don't go out of my way to find screechy, shrill and scary sounds in music and I'm sure most people feel the same way. Listening to test tones, wthin your hearing range is not useful if you don't need to respond to these sounds. Our speech and language and our relationship with other animals has defined where human hearing is most sensitive and useful. Brakes screeching and sirens are useful, but that's a very recent change in human society. There would be nothing like this half a million years ago, because you wouldn't be in a busy city centre, surrounded by modern, metal threats etc.
Exactly.

Nobody listens to the instrument they used in the experiment.

Loudspeaker tweeters dont tend to go that high.

There just isnt a great deal of information in music even at 20kHz
 

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