Can someone explain what actually happens for a cartridge "Burn in"

[rayolight]

I recently purchased an ortofon 2m Black to replace a 2m bronze. There was a definite improvement in soundstage after installation,and I was extremely careful to make sure all settings vta,vtf asimuth etc were as good as I could get them,as am aware how finicky the Shibata stylus is. Have been running the cartridge for somewhere between 50 and 100hrs. I suddenly realised the sound had improved dramatically, the voices actually felt like they were in front of me the soundstage was more convincing the bass tighter overall a superb sound. My question is does the stylus actually change shape after extended use. It certainly has become a very obvious change which I have not noticed to the same degree on other cartridges I have installed. My only criticism of the cartridge is that there is more groove noise in between tracks which I put down to the cartridge picking up everything available but a small price to pay for the overall performance

 

[Gray]

Good question Ray.
You would hope the stylus doesn't change shape so soon.
As for the compliance - important for arm matching - you'd sort of hope that stays the same too.
I've asked the precise question you've posted in your thread title, but got nothing.
I'll await the usual theory that mechanical devices 'free up'.....which, in the case of a cartridge, would necessarily mean an increase in compliance. I await education on (my favourite subject of) 'burn in' 🤔

P.S. Just noticed that your bass 'tightened up overall'.
Perhaps someone can explain how the burn-in loosening up, causes the sound to tighten up.....precisley how that occurs.

 

[rayolight]

Thanks for your reply Gray,I have never noticed such an improvement on any other cartridges (and i have quite a few). The only way I can describe voices is that they appear almost 3D,could it be something to do with the connection between the stylus and the magnets in the cartridge. Fascinating, for me . I usually compare new cartridges which are installed on a Clearaudio Concept with Verify arm to my goto Michell Transcriptors Reference Hydraulic with Fluid Arm and Ortofon 540mk2 cartridge, which I think is amazing for its age. But have to say the 2M Black has exceeded my expectations and justified its healthy cost.
Like yourself I will await some words of wisdom from other members
Cheers

 

[daytona600]

50-100hrs normal for cartridge run in , break in period with the suspension
LVB250 Stylus will sound even better#

 

[Al ears]

I have had quite a few cartridges in my time and is cannot recall any that change their sound dramatically.
The only thing, to my mind, that can be affected by use is any elastomers within the cartridges construction. Some say they can result in differences depending on the temperature of the room if playing initially in a very cold room and then playing after the heating has been on for a while.
Cannot say I have ever noticed this either as my room has never had any big extremes of temperature.
If rubber surrounds of speaker drivers improve upon use then I guess it is possible elastomer in a cartridge would be the same.

 

[Al ears]

50-100hrs normal for cartridge run in , break in period with the suspension
LVB250 Stylus will sound even better#
View attachment 3918

Can it be measured or is this just some manufacturers recommendation.
As after such a run in you'll not be able to return it as unfit for purpose..... 🙂

 

[rayolight]

I'm normally very sceptical regarding such things as ,burn in, and improvement using interconnects costing £250 or more,but on this occasion there is genuinely a real improvement in sound. The other thing I would love to know is, if I spend £1000+ on a cartridge, am I going to be blown away by the improvement. My 2m black is the most I've ever spent on a cartridge and don't have the funds as a pensioner to go to these crazy amounts of money. I also have to conceed that my ears probably won't justify the extra cost ,but would be interested to here findings of others.

 

[Al ears]

I'm normally very sceptical regarding such things as ,burn in, and improvement using interconnects costing £250 or more,but on this occasion there is genuinely a real improvement in sound. The other thing I would love to know is, if I spend £1000+ on a cartridge, am I going to be blown away by the improvement. My 2m black is the most I've ever spent on a cartridge and don't have the funds as a pensioner to go to these crazy amounts of money. I also have to conceed that my ears probably won't justify the extra cost ,but would be interested to here findings of others.

I am also getting to the age where my hearing isn't what it once was.
Would I spend £1000+ on a cartridge?
No I don't think I would as any are unlikely to offer much more than I already have.
I might very well have done when younger and if I had the money.......

 

[rayolight]

I am also getting to the age where my hearing isn't what it once was.
Would I spend £1000+ on a cartridge?
No I don't think I would as any are unlikely to offer much more than I already have.
I might very well have done when younger and if I had the money.......

Appreciate your comments, I can only imagine that the improvement past a certain point will be very small and again to our old ears possibly not at all. So why do we do it. Striving for the possibility of something that we don't even know exists. I find it really interesting to hear recommendations from different people who will of course be of different ages and listening abilities. I am so happy with what I have got it's been my hobby for over 50years and so long as the hearing continues will be for the rest of my days

 

[Al ears]

Appreciate your comments, I can only imagine that the improvement past a certain point will be very small and again to our old ears possibly not at all. So why do we do it. Striving for the possibility of something that we don't even know exists. I find it really interesting to hear recommendations from different people who will of course be of different ages and listening abilities. I am so happy with what I have got it's been my hobby for over 50years and so long as the hearing continues will be for the rest of my days

Understood. I have often wondered if some people buy the likes of Koetsu cartridges because they hear what they can bring to a system or whether they buy them simply so they can say that they have one.......

 

[Gray]

Seems accepted that the best moving coils will always better the best moving magnets.
Said to be due to the lighter weight of the moving part.

Read a reviewer saying that fitting a £4,000 MC, with its non-removable stylus, was a nerve wracking experience.....I was ultra-careful changing a £14.95 Audio Technica stylus 😁.

 

[rayolight]

Seems accepted that the best moving coils will always better the best moving magnets.
Said to be due to the lighter weight of the moving part.

Read a reviewer saying that fitting a £4,000 MC, with its non-removable stylus, was a nerve wracking experience.....I was ultra-careful changing a £14.95 Audio Technica stylus 😁.

I can totally agree with you on that Gray ,I used to be a computer engineer back in the seventies and would deal with tiny screws and micro components on a daily basis. But that 2m black made me shudder 🤣🤣🤣🤣

 

[Angle Poise-Lamp]

Read a reviewer saying that fitting a £4,000 MC, with its non-removable stylus, was a nerve wracking experience.....I was ultra-careful changing a £14.95 Audio Technica stylus 😁.

I would find it very, very hard to see that level of worth in a cartridge, so if I was using vinyl, that would not be such an issue. I was very careful fitting a £350 new processor in my PC.

 

[Gray]

I would find it very, very hard to see that level of worth in a cartridge

Impossible for me.
(My most expensive car so far was half that).

 

[daytona600]

Seems accepted that the best moving coils will always better the best moving magnets.
Said to be due to the lighter weight of the moving part.

MI 3rd Option
( moving iron ) lowest moving mass & better Specs - Grado , Soundsmith , Nagaoka , Decca etc

MI Grado Epoch $12k
Frequency range 6 Hz - 72 KHz
Channel separation: avg. 47dB - 6 Hz - 72 KHz

MC Lyra Atlas λ Lambda $12k
Frequency range: 10Hz ~ 50kHz
Channel separation: avg. 30dB at 1kHz

MI Grado Opus $300
Frequency range: 10Hz ~ 60kHz
Channel Seperation Avg 30db - 10hz - 30k Hz

 

[Gray]

MI Grado Opus $300
Frequency range: 10Hz ~ 60kHz
Channel Seperation Avg 30db - 10hz - 30k Hz

What iron has lower mass than a coil does it?

 

[nopiano]

I'm normally very sceptical regarding such things as ,burn in, and improvement using interconnects costing £250 or more,but on this occasion there is genuinely a real improvement in sound. The other thing I would love to know is, if I spend £1000+ on a cartridge, am I going to be blown away by the improvement. My 2m black is the most I've ever spent on a cartridge and don't have the funds as a pensioner to go to these crazy amounts of money. I also have to conceed that my ears probably won't justify the extra cost ,but would be interested to here findings of others.

I’d have to say you would, assuming you’ve a decent system to enjoy it on. A few years ago, Ortofon did a roadshow where they demonstrated cartridges from the 2M Red up to the then top MC model. I wrote it up here at the time. It got a bit scrambled in sequence when the forum was canned for a few years, but if you’re interested, it’s here.

Ortofon tour

I don't recall seeing this mentioned on the forum and I was fortunate to attend a session recently. I will try to do a write up soon, but here's a link for anyone interested in catching a session. https://www.henleyaudio.co.uk/cms/content/news/310

forums.whathifi.com

 

[daytona600]

What iron has lower mass than a coil does it?

MI Moving Iron

 

[Gray]

View attachment 3924View attachment 3924
MI Moving Iron
View attachment 3925

Yes, a magnet, coil or iron can be the moving part.

But my question was:
Is iron a lower mass than (lightweight) coils?
(Or a magnet for that matter).

 

[nopiano]

Yes, a magnet, coil or iron can be the moving part.

But my question was:
Is iron a lower mass than (lightweight) coils?
(Or a magnet for that matter).

I’ve probably assumed that was an MC benefit - lower inertia because coils are ‘lighter’ - but that’s slightly contradicted by their typically higher tracking force. I once had a Denon MC that tracked at 1.3 grammes and liked low-mass arms, but that was an exception. MMs are invariably better at tracking, and that seems such a fundamental flaw if not eliminated that MCs often struggle with. What’s the point in wonderful sound that distorts on climaxes? That said, the Ortofon Windfield MC I wrote about above sounded like a master tape to me. Incredible!

As I’ve probably said before, it’s a blooming miracle that LPs work at all once you think about it!

 

[Gray]

As I’ve probably said before, it’s a blooming miracle that LPs work at all once you think about it!

You're right,
I've often thought about what's involved from recording to playback of vinyl.
It is quite amazing how good it can sound.

 

[Al ears]

You're right,
I've often thought about what's involved from recording to playback of vinyl.
It is quite amazing how good it can sound.

Indeed, personally I have found that tracking is not necessarily good with one type of cartridge and rubbish with others, it's all about getting the right cartridge for the right tonearm.
Compliance of Moving Coils is a tad more critical than you're average Moving Magnet.