Building a Hi-Fi advice

[Vladimir]

Certainly, in a digital system, it remains the speakers as the only piece of equipment in the chain that cannot as yet be designed to give a completely flat response and a lack of audible distortion.

Can't the manufacturer 'tailor' digital filtering in (or after) the crossover to allow for known cabinet / driver vagaries?

That's what the Devialet SAM system does, but in the amp's DSP, not the speaker.

But it remains the case that all speakers distort in ways that DSP can't cater for, especially dynamic (cone) speakers, whether active or passive. And the distortion of cones moving in and out, especially if the cones are mounted in boxes, remains the grossest type of distortion in any audio system.

Matt

Thats what Meridian active DSP in their active speakers does. Devialet SAM does nothing of the sort considering it is processing before the speaker crossover. Its just EQ presets for speaker models.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5VDQwQ0n3pU

 

[matt49]

I dnt know alot bout the Devialet system, but something I want to look into & may be have a demo soon. If the Devialet was designed to work with electrostatic speakers, would this not further remove from the good old problem of cone distortion..?

The Devialet itself isn't designed to work with any particular kind of speakers. It will cope with anything: cone, panel, open baffle, whatever.

Devialet's SAM system is an optional plug-in. It plugs the measured characteristics of a given speaker into the Devialet's DSP. The DSP adjusts FR below about 300Hz and crossover phase anomalies, so as to make the speaker output match the incoming signal, as far as possible.

SAM won't have any effect on my speakers, which have active subs and no crossover.

Matt

 

[matt49]

Thats what Meridian active DSP in their active speakers does. Devialet SAM does nothing of the sort considering it is processing before the speaker crossover. Its just EQ presets for speaker models.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5VDQwQ0n3pU

No, I stand by what I said to the letter. See my reply to native_bon above.

Matt

 

[Vladimir]

Chebby wrote: Can't the manufacturer 'tailor' digital filtering in (or after) the crossover to allow for known cabinet / driver vagaries?

This has nothing to do with Devialet SAM since it isn't an active system of any kind. What they do offer is alternative EQ voicing from the one that manufacturer of the speakers has implemented.

 

[matt49]

Chebby wrote: Can't the manufacturer 'tailor' digital filtering in (or after) the crossover to allow for known cabinet / driver vagaries?

This has nothing to do with Devialet SAM since it isn't an active system of any kind. What they do offer is alternative EQ voicing from the one that manufacturer of the speakers has implemented.

... which is why I said "but in the amp's DSP, not the speaker". That "but" clause indicated clearly that I wasn't talking about DSP "in (or after) the crossover"; I was talking about DSP in the amp, and it's designed precisely "to allow for known cabinet / driver vagaries".

I think my post was pretty clear, but you seem to have lapsed into Vlad the Impaler mode.

Matt

 

[Native_bon]

I must say the video was an interesting one. But of course he is meant to promote Meridian active speakers.

 

[Vladimir]

Chebby wrote: Can't the manufacturer 'tailor' digital filtering in (or after) the crossover to allow for known cabinet / driver vagaries?

This has nothing to do with Devialet SAM since it isn't an active system of any kind. What they do offer is alternative EQ voicing from the one that manufacturer of the speakers has implemented.

... which is why I said "but in the amp's DSP, not the speaker". That "but" clause indicated clearly that I wasn't talking about DSP "in (or after) the crossover"; I was talking about DSP in the amp, and it's designed precisely "to allow for known cabinet / driver vagaries".

I think my post was pretty clear, but you seem to have lapsed into Vlad the Impaler mode.

Matt

Not impaling anyone, no worries.

So Devialet takes different passive speakers other companies made, measure in their anechoic chamber and give them different voicing with DSP presets in their amps. Should I trust Devialet to fix B&W, KEF, JBL, Tannoy, Martin Logan, Dynaudio etc. cabinet/driver vagaries with EQ? Are these people that much better than all those speaker engineers? How do you solve cabinet resonances and cone breakup with passive EQ?

I also checked their ADH technology. ADH is same as Technics New Class A or Class AA or Denon's Optical Class A etc. Basically class A voltage amp and class D for current.

I find Meridian to be massively more inovative company than Devialet in this area.

 

[matt49]

Not impaling anyone, no worries.

So Devialet takes different passive speakers other companies made, measure in their anechoic chamber and give them different voicing with DSP presets in their amps. Should I trust Devialet to fix B&W, KEF, JBL, Tannoy, Martin Logan, Dynaudio etc. cabinet/driver vagaries with EQ?

I also checked their ADH technology. ADH is same as Technics New Class A or Class AA or Denon's Optical Class A etc. Basically class A voltage amp and class D for current.

I find Meridian to be massively more inovative company than Devialet in this area.

It's not a question of "trust". The SAM system is entirely optional and can be switched on and off. If you don't like it, you don't have to use it. And if you don't use it, you haven't lost out, since it comes at no extra cost.

The people at B&W have been closely involved in the development of SAM. The 802Ds were among the first (if not the very first) speakers to get the SAM treatment. I've heard SAM used with B&W 805Ds, and I thought the improvement was pretty dramatic and entirely positive. YMMV.

SAM won't have any effect on most Martin Logans (i.e. the hybrids), as I've already explained earlier in this thread.

At a general level, ADH may well be similar to the other types of current dumping you list (and also to Quad's original version, though that wasn't digital). My understanding is that the implementation is quite different, and the devil is in the detail -- and also in the measured specs.

No skin off my nose if you don't think Devialet are very innovative.

Matt

 

[Vladimir]

No worries. Just expressing my opinion, I am no expert on the matter.

That is not a surprise at all they went to B&W first since many B&W owners want their speakers to liven up in the midrange a bit more after some years of ownership. The B&W house sound has the -3dB dip from reference in the upper midrange 2kHz-5kHz.. Devialet comes as a cool posh integrated solution for those that don't use PC as transport and don't like EQ component in their system.

 

[CnoEvil]

Taken back to square one....it was the the wish to appreciate music in one's home, that was Hi-Fi's raison d'etre.

If you accept this logic, the technical aspect, while interesting and helpful, should be secondary. :shifty:

I believe that to be nonsense.

Plenty of people appreciate music without feeling the need to buy hifi equipment.

They listen on portable devices, TVs small radios and the like. Probably as far from hifi as is likely to get, with the exception of portable devices and quality headphones, which can eclipse the sound quality of even the most expensive hifi systems.

Of course you feel it's nonsense, as once again you have missed the point I'm attempting to make....Oh well, I think i'm just going to accept that we orbit around totally different planets.

 

[CnoEvil]

There is a fundamental division and it centres around the word "fidelity". There are some of us who like the reproduction to be accurate, ie like the original or as close as we can achieve within out budget. Then there are those of us who want the reproduction to sound "good". These two things aren't necessarily the same thing!

This division also tends to be reflected between those who like classical as opposed to "pop" music. I guess this is because classical music lovers tend to have more access to the "original" as they can go to concerts and recordings tend to reflect concert performance. In the "pop" world this isn't necessarily the case.

People like the sound of vinyl and there is nothing wrong with that. However it isn't accurate although it may sound good.

Chris

I like my system to sound "right".....I personally don't get hung up on how this is achieved, just that it is achieved, whether through Valves, Vinyl, Digital, Active, Passive or Solid State.

How do I achieve this to my satisfaction (which is all that matters to me)...well I'll tell you how i don't do it:

- I don't trawl through endless measurements.

- I don't have preconceptions (or try hard not to).

- I don't blindly believe in marketing guff / reviews / personal endorsements on forums

- I don't do double blind ABX tests

What I do is completely personal, subjective and relies on:

- Having a baseline of what real instruments sound like (as you stated)

- Past experience and a reasonable understanding of how to achieve my goal.

- Lots of listening to different alternatives, which allows me to assess how different components stack up against each other (performance per £)

- Being aware that one's ears can be fooled, but also being aware that they are remarkably sensitive and usually point me in the right direction.

- Getting second opinions and doing some sort of blind test, where I think it's appropriate

- Enjoyment, which is a great measure of "rightness".

Getting fixated on equipment (imo) misses the point, and is not the same as having an open mind while having a reasonable understanding of the equipment.

Folks - IT'S ABOUT THE APPRECIATION OF MUSIC!....and in this most crucial of areas, you and I agree. :cheer:

 

[matt49]

No worries. Just expressing my opinion, I am no expert on the matter.

That is not a surprise at all they went to B&W first since many B&W owners want their speakers to liven up in the midrange a bit more after some years of ownership. The B&W house sound has the -3dB dip from reference in the upper midrange 2kHz-5kHz.. Devialet comes as a cool posh integrated solution for those that don't use PC as transport and don't like EQ component in their system.

The main effect of SAM is below 300Hz, so your comment about B&W's need for mid-range EQ is almost certainly wrong as an explanation for why B&W wanted to work with Devialet. There's a much more obvious explanation: B&W wanted to sell more of their high-end speakers, and they could see which way the wind was blowing.

As for Devialet owners not using EQ, well I do (JRiver MC19 on Windows).

If you knew anything at all about Devialet, you'd know it was designed precisely to be used with a PC/Mac as transport, and most Devialet owners do exactly this (if you want evidence, google Devialet chat forum and look at some of the systems).

As for Devialet being "posh and cool", it certainly doesn't look like traditional hifi, and this has occasioned a certain amount of snobbishness on the part of traditional audiophiles like yourself. Before I first used one, I shared your prejudices: it does look like a lifestyle product; in reality it's anything but.

Matt

 

[Vladimir]

The main effect of SAM is below 300Hz, so your comment about B&W's need for mid-range EQ is almost certainly wrong as an explanation for why B&W wanted to work with Devialet.

Can you link to a reference of this information because I'd like to learn more. Thanks.

As for Devialet owners not using EQ, well I do (JRiver MC19 on Windows).

Great. Me too.

If you knew anything at all about Devialet, you'd know it was designed precisely to be used with a PC/Mac as transport, and most Devialet owners do exactly this (if you want evidence, google Devialet chat forum and look at some of the systems).

Indeed. I just checked their Air feature. Looks brilliant.

As for Devialet being "posh and cool", it certainly doesn't look like traditional hifi, and this has occasioned a certain amount of snobbishness on the part of traditional audiophiles like yourself. Before I first used one, I shared your prejudices: it does look like a lifestyle product; in reality it's anything but.

I am a B&O fan and I see nothing wrong with hi-fi having a bit of design.

Integrated solutions like the ones offered by Devialet, B&O, Roksan Oxygen etc. are the future of hi-fi. The coal burning class A, AB, B will all go in the niche where valve amps are now.

However, my point remains, Devialet SAM/ADH/AIR/EVO does not address cabinet and driver issues in speakers, just signal voicing and it is not an active system. Just clearing things up a bit.

 

[matt49]

The main effect of SAM is below 300Hz, so your comment about B&W's need for mid-range EQ is almost certainly wrong as an explanation for why B&W wanted to work with Devialet.

Can you link to a reference of this information because I'd like to learn more. Thanks.

OK, now my turn to get something wrong: the figure is below 150Hz, not below 300Hz as I stated.

http://www.klangpunkt.de/upload/bilder/aktuelles/Devialet/Devialet_-_White_Paper_-_SAM__ADH_Technologies.pdf

I am a B&O fan and I see nothing wrong with hi-fi having a bit of design.

Integrated solutions like the ones offered by Devialet, B&O, Roksan Oxygen etc. are the future of hi-fi. The coal burning class A, AB, B will all go in the niche where valve amps are now.

However, my point remains, Devialet SAM/ADH/AIR/EVO does not address cabinet and driver issues in speakers, just signal voicing and it is not an active system. Just clearing things up a bit.

You're right, of course, that this isn't an active system; the use of the word "active" by Devialet is just marketing. But whether or not SAM addresses cabinet and driver issues is a moot point. The SAM measurements are taken at the point of speaker output. There's no reason in principle why the same effect can't be achieved with DSP before the crossover, though obviously doing it after the crossover is likely to be more effective. But since we're dealing with a passive system here, SAM seems to be a pretty good stab at addressing some of the issues, especially given that Devialet has actively (sic) involved speaker manufacturers in the process.

Matt

 

[Vladimir]

If the amp had a microphone that measured the in-room response and corrected the signal/amplification, that would make it an active system. Also if it measures the signal after the crossover and before and compensated for voltage/current suckouts/distortion or like the old Sigma drive where the amp not only pushes but also 'pulls' in order to control accurate pistonic cone movement, all that is an active system.

SAM is the intelligence that allows a Devialet to adapt its behaviour to the very loudspeakers it is connected to.

...

Devialet’s SAM consists in a processing of the audio signal in the digital domain, computed in the DSP that takes place in a Devialet ahead of the DAC and power amplifier section. By taking into account the characteristics of the loudspeaker connected to the Devialet, it allows to drive in a very precise and controlled way the speaker driver diaphragm’s movement , so as to obtain an exact alignment between a recorded music signal, and the pressure wave that reaches the listener’s ear during a listening session.

...

A Devialet can therefore free the loudspeaker from a number of the limitations dictated physics.

A passive loudspeaker forms with the Devialet an intelligent active set-up.

As I understand it, if it's before the DA output into analogue signal, then it is only EQ DSP, not changing the amplification segment in the pre and power amp. Time domain processing. Hmm. :?

 

[Overdose]

I could be wrong, but that just seems like preset, optimised EQ mapping. If so, there's no reason you couldn't do that with any computer based playback system. The results would be the same.

 

[Vladimir]

Maybe they iron out the bump under 100Hz. Less boom, less distortion, flatter, more neutral sound and better in-room response closer to walls.

I just shave that bit off -1.5dB with my JRiver DSP and hear the benefits.

 

[matt49]

It would be interesting to see some before-SAM and after-SAM FR plots. That would give a clearer indication of what SAM is actually doing. ATM we have little info and lots of speculation.

Matt

 

[Vladimir]

That is a great idea. I did look for FR images online but none suplied by the manufacturer that I could find.