Building a budget system for classical & jazz

[acalex]

I apologise with the OP, just a digression...what's the meaning of amp or speakers being forward? You said the same of my MA RX6 and wanted to ask but I forgot!

Thanks and sorry for the OT

I will do my best, and as in all things hifi, it can be subjective. For me, "forward" is best used as a "comparative term", as opposed to a definitive label ie. A way of describing the difference in presentation between two pieces kit. The opposite of forward is "laid back", where forward is often associated with a brighter sound that almost "thrusts" the music at you. If looking at speakers, I think they fall into three basic catagories: Forward (Triangle); Neutral (ATC); Warm/Dark (Spendor/Proac) The MAs that you own, have a more "forward" presentation than the SFs that you demoed. As far as amps go, valves are generally (but not always) less forward than SS. SS amps that are not forward, would be the likes of Lavardin and Audio Analogue, with Cyrus and Naim giving a more upfront presentation. IMO. Forward is the sound you are steering away from. Many people "think" they like it better, as it can sound more dramatic and exciting on a short demo....but on long term home listening, may find the sound fatiguing. Hope that rather long winded preamble helps.

Crystal clear, thanks a lot! Yes I indeed realised the sound of my speakers is a bit too bright sometimes...and I need to take a pause whilst listeninfg. Ah ok, so dark is associated to warm, very good to know.

So I would say that Jadis + SF would be a warm and relaxing sound...indeed we went on for almost 6hs no-stop listening at the combination, magix experience . With my actual set-up that would not be possible...as sometimes I feel the sound is too aggressive and I have to lower the volume or stop it for a while.

But the fact that some speakers are warmer than others it does not mean they are less detailed...or usually brighter are more detailed? Or presentation has nothing to do with details?

 

[CnoEvil]

Crystal clear, thanks a lot! Yes I indeed realised the sound of my speakers is a bit too bright sometimes...and I need to take a pause whilst listeninfg. Ah ok, so dark is associated to warm, very good to know.

So I would say that Jadis + SF would be a warm and relaxing sound...indeed we went on for almost 6hs no-stop listening at the combination, magix experience . With my actual set-up that would not be possible...as sometimes I feel the sound is too aggressive and I have to lower the volume or stop it for a while.

But the fact that some speakers are warmer than others it does not mean they are less detailed...or usually brighter are more detailed? Or presentation has nothing to do with details?

Strictly speaking, the adjective "dark" (opposite of bright) is associated with the treble. Warm (opposite of lean) is more a description of bass, but is often used on its own to describe both.

I would describe Jadis + SF as smooth yet detailed, relaxing but still exciting, and always emotional....maybe larger than life, but in a good way.

How warm the bass is, will depend on how controlled and punchy it is. The bass of valve amps is often on the warm side. Nb. One thing you will notice about the 35i is just how incredible the bass is....probably due to the amount of current on tap.

IMO Brightness can often give the impression that there is more detail, and conversely, if the treble is too rolled off, some detail may be lost.
Class A by its nature, removes crossover distortion, which usually lets more detail through and gives a more natural tone. Nb. A natural musical tone and having detail, are not mutually exclusive.

I will be very interested in what your view of the 35i will be, as it mixes the punch of SS and the liquid musicality of valves....it's just not as "sugar coated" as the Jadis, which means certain genres of music will sound better and bad recordings will sound worse.

 

[Anonymous]

I apologise with the OP, just a digression...what's the meaning of amp or speakers being forward? You said the same of my MA RX6 and wanted to ask but I forgot!

Thanks and sorry for the OT

I will do my best, and as in all things hifi, it can be subjective. For me, "forward" is best used as a "comparative term", as opposed to a definitive label ie. A way of describing the difference in presentation between two pieces kit. The opposite of forward is "laid back", where forward is often associated with a brighter sound that almost "thrusts" the music at you. If looking at speakers, I think they fall into three basic catagories: Forward (Triangle); Neutral (ATC); Warm/Dark (Spendor/Proac) The MAs that you own, have a more "forward" presentation than the SFs that you demoed. As far as amps go, valves are generally (but not always) less forward than SS. SS amps that are not forward, would be the likes of Lavardin and Audio Analogue, with Cyrus and Naim giving a more upfront presentation. IMO. Forward is the sound you are steering away from. Many people "think" they like it better, as it can sound more dramatic and exciting on a short demo....but on long term home listening, may find the sound fatiguing. Hope that rather long winded preamble helps.

But the fact that some speakers are warmer than others it does not mean they are less detailed...or usually brighter are more detailed? Or presentation has nothing to do with details?

Not necessarily, I don't hear any less detail with my older Epos (warmer) than I do with the say my Usher. The Spendor has a more homogenous sound that glosses over fine detail, they are smoother than both Usher and Proac but compared to the Epos they sounda lot drier and little less airy and detailed.

 

[acalex]

Crystal clear, thanks a lot! Yes I indeed realised the sound of my speakers is a bit too bright sometimes...and I need to take a pause whilst listeninfg. Ah ok, so dark is associated to warm, very good to know.

So I would say that Jadis + SF would be a warm and relaxing sound...indeed we went on for almost 6hs no-stop listening at the combination, magix experience . With my actual set-up that would not be possible...as sometimes I feel the sound is too aggressive and I have to lower the volume or stop it for a while.

But the fact that some speakers are warmer than others it does not mean they are less detailed...or usually brighter are more detailed? Or presentation has nothing to do with details?

Strictly speaking, the adjective "dark" (opposite of bright) is associated with the treble. Warm (opposite of lean) is more a description of bass, but is often used on its own to describe both. I would describe Jadis + SF as smooth yet detailed, relaxing but still exciting, and always emotional....maybe larger than life, but in a good way. How warm the bass is, will depend on how controlled and punchy it is. The bass of valve amps is often on the warm side. Nb. One thing you will notice about the 35i is just how incredible the bass is....probably due to the amount of current on tap. IMO Brightness can often give the impression that there is more detail, and conversely, if the treble is too rolled off, some detail may be lost. Class A by its nature, removes crossover distortion, which usually lets more detail through and gives a more natural tone. Nb. A natural musical tone and having detail, are not mutually exclusive. I will be very interested in what your view of the 35i will be, as it mixes the punch of SS and the liquid musicality of valves....it's just not as "sugar coated" as the Jadis, which means certain genres of music will sound better and bad recordings will sound worse.

Clear, still I can't distinguish between a lean and warm bass to be honest. For me when I listened to the combo Jadis + SF bass was very intense, very deep...I guess that's a typical presentation of a warm bass? Not sure how a lean bass will sound...

So what I am expecting from the AMS is still a very nice and intense bass, a lot of musicality but slightly less emotional than the Jadis. A bit more neutral presentation than what Jadis offered, correct?

 

[CnoEvil]

Clear, still I can't distinguish between a lean and warm bass to be honest. For me when I listened to the combo Jadis + SF bass was very intense, very deep...I guess that's a typical presentation of a warm bass? Not sure how a lean bass will sound...

So what I am expecting from the AMS is still a very nice and intense bass, a lot of musicality but slightly less emotional than the Jadis. A bit more neutral presentation than what Jadis offered, correct?

First of all, apologies to the OP for completely taking over the thread.

Sometimes the easiest way to tell, is to hear an amp with very deep, controlled bass (AMS35i) with which to compare. A warm sound can still have plenty of bass, but it is a little "softer", for want of a better word.

A lean bass can come across as "bass shy", especially if you're used to a speaker like Dynaudio.

It's only by listening to a lot of different speakers that you get a better understanding eg. The bass from Dynaudio is very different from Focal (as is the whole presentation).

 

[SteveR750]

Whic goes to show adjectives are funny things. Logically, the opposite of lean is not warm, for that would be cold (and interestingly we use cold to describe a sonic signature) but a "cold Bass" just doesn't convey much meaning. Maybe the opposite of a lean sound is a fat sound. If we strggle with the descriptions, then it just shows how difficult it is to compare experiences, which raises an interesting philosophical point - do we have different assessments of hi fi equipment because we each do hear something different, or just the inablity to use a consistent language.

 

[CnoEvil]

Whic goes to show adjectives are funny things. Logically, the opposite of lean is not warm, for that would be cold (and interestingly we use cold to describe a sonic signature) but a "cold Bass" just doesn't convey much meaning. Maybe the opposite of a lean sound is a fat sound. If we strggle with the descriptions, then it just shows how difficult it is to compare experiences, which raises an interesting philosophical point - do we have different assessments of hi fi equipment because we each do hear something different, or just the inablity to use a consistent language.

This is a very good point.....adjectives, used to accurately describe sound are not easy to find at the best of times, and may not fully get across what a person is hearing.....which is subjective anyway and open to misinterpretation by the person reading it.

The opposite of lean is fat, bloated or overblown.....imo. Warm bass can have elements of this to varying degrees. Bass can be "hard hitting and punchy" or on the "warm and cozy" side....whether two people agree where the boundary lies, is another matter.

 

[Anonymous]

Hi,

I just would like to refresh this thread a bit. I listen to the same kind of music as Bleep does and I have Rega Mira amp (the oldest one), Rega Jura mkII loudspeakers and Rotel RCD-02 CD player which I found fine in his times but now I am replacing it with Rega Apollo-R. And thats why writing - is it worth it to buy new Brio-R amp to replace Mira? I know the best thing to do is to go to Rega dealer and listen but it is difficult to find Rega products here in Prague. Thanks for every opinion.

 

[CnoEvil]

Hi,

I just would like to refresh this thread a bit. I listen to the same kind of music as Bleep does and I have Rega Mira amp (the oldest one), Rega Jura mkII loudspeakers and Rotel RCD-02 CD player which I found fine in his times but now I am replacing it with Rega Apollo-R. And thats why writing - is it worth it to buy new Brio-R amp to replace Mira? I know the best thing to do is to go to Rega dealer and listen but it is difficult to find Rega products here in Prague. Thanks for every opinion.

The answer is probably.....can you check for yourself, which is the only safe way to see if the upgrade is worth the money.