Budget Valve amps-are they really the best value for money you can get?
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I confess I didn't click through your link there. I'll just respond to your initial question.
No, and then yes.
The budget ones are rubbish. The reasonable ones, say Jolida JD302 (although it's not really available in the UK) run 1000bucks and knock around most/if not all of the transistor amps in that 1k to 2k market. But only if you like tubesound. If you want very forward, concise and zippy sound... You'll hate it.
The cheap 3-40watt chinese jobbies and DIY's really aren't very good when you stack them up to the real deals. R&D combined with good craftsmanship remains, not surprisingly, at the top of the list of things that make hi-fi sound good.
No, and then yes.
The budget ones are rubbish. The reasonable ones, say Jolida JD302 (although it's not really available in the UK) run 1000bucks and knock around most/if not all of the transistor amps in that 1k to 2k market. But only if you like tubesound. If you want very forward, concise and zippy sound... You'll hate it.
The cheap 3-40watt chinese jobbies and DIY's really aren't very good when you stack them up to the real deals. R&D combined with good craftsmanship remains, not surprisingly, at the top of the list of things that make hi-fi sound good.
fatboyslimfast
Well-known member
Looking at the link, it's £600 (or £750 if you believe the "non-sale" price), but they do have a Bricks&Mortar at Birmingham, so it might be worth a trip to have a listen...
Icon Audio are a genuine player in the UK valve amp market. I seem to remember they use Meixing/Ming Da (which is a massive Chinese hifi manufacturer that OEMs to the West) components/chassis/amps and redesign various aspects of them or supply their own designs, sometimes extensively and import to the UK. They've been going for a few years now and have gathered quite a lot of respect. I've heard some of their offerings at shows and in the main they've been very good. They are based in Leicestershire and I believe you can listen to their kit at their premises. This latest budget amp of theirs was reviewed this month in a rival magaizine I believe and was given quite a good write up.
In general budget valve amps can be a bit of a mixed bunch. Valve amps stand and fall on the quality of their output transformers. Done well they have astonishing clarity and timbre across the midband that you will struggle to ever hear from a transistor design. They have a superb sense of natural flow. Done poorly, they sound thick in the midband, coloured, rose tinted and warm with wooly bass and a rolled off treble. Like eveything in Hifi, there is a vast diversity between these two ends of the spectrum and your personal taste and budget dictates.
A few years ago I was running a musical fidelity X-150 integrated into Proac Tablettes. Very good it was too. Then I tried an Affordable Valve Company EL34 integrated. Budget ebay bargain. The transformation in the midband was astonishing and I was totally hooked, frequency extremes were not quite as good but were not poor. On balance though the valves offered so much more. Later I switched to a World Audio Designs 6550 amp and have never looked back. Coupled with Proac Response 3 this gives me everything I ever wanted from a hifi system. The last show I went too was revealing, I came away wanting nothing and when I got home I heard the best sound I'd heard all day at any price. The AVC went to a friend which ousted his NAIM pre/power (although kids has meant he's switched to an Arcam A32 recently and although he's lost the beautiful midband again, he is enjoying bass control again). I wouldn't advocate AVC though, I know my pal struggled with any kind of backup of service from AVC when he needed them.
Valve amps take a bit of commitment to keep them on song (new valves eventually, some more expensive than others!) and in some cases a bit of electronics knowledge (biasing although many are self biasing nowadays). They are not especially child friendly and don't always come with a remote. They also require more sensitive speakers in a lot of cases. There are lots of configurations and types too. Basically, they just aren't as plug and play as a tranny amp. All I can say is listen with your ears and do your research.
In general budget valve amps can be a bit of a mixed bunch. Valve amps stand and fall on the quality of their output transformers. Done well they have astonishing clarity and timbre across the midband that you will struggle to ever hear from a transistor design. They have a superb sense of natural flow. Done poorly, they sound thick in the midband, coloured, rose tinted and warm with wooly bass and a rolled off treble. Like eveything in Hifi, there is a vast diversity between these two ends of the spectrum and your personal taste and budget dictates.
A few years ago I was running a musical fidelity X-150 integrated into Proac Tablettes. Very good it was too. Then I tried an Affordable Valve Company EL34 integrated. Budget ebay bargain. The transformation in the midband was astonishing and I was totally hooked, frequency extremes were not quite as good but were not poor. On balance though the valves offered so much more. Later I switched to a World Audio Designs 6550 amp and have never looked back. Coupled with Proac Response 3 this gives me everything I ever wanted from a hifi system. The last show I went too was revealing, I came away wanting nothing and when I got home I heard the best sound I'd heard all day at any price. The AVC went to a friend which ousted his NAIM pre/power (although kids has meant he's switched to an Arcam A32 recently and although he's lost the beautiful midband again, he is enjoying bass control again). I wouldn't advocate AVC though, I know my pal struggled with any kind of backup of service from AVC when he needed them.
Valve amps take a bit of commitment to keep them on song (new valves eventually, some more expensive than others!) and in some cases a bit of electronics knowledge (biasing although many are self biasing nowadays). They are not especially child friendly and don't always come with a remote. They also require more sensitive speakers in a lot of cases. There are lots of configurations and types too. Basically, they just aren't as plug and play as a tranny amp. All I can say is listen with your ears and do your research.
raypalmer:I confess I didn't click through your link there. I'll just respond to your initial question.
No, and then yes.
The budget ones are rubbish. The reasonable ones, say Jolida JD302 (although it's not really available in the UK) run 1000bucks and knock around most/if not all of the transistor amps in that 1k to 2k market. But only if you like tubesound. If you want very forward, concise and zippy sound... You'll hate it.
The cheap 3-40watt chinese jobbies and DIY's really aren't very good when you stack them up to the real deals. R&D combined with good craftsmanship remains, not surprisingly, at the top of the list of things that make hi-fi sound good.
In my experience, the answer is yes, but as raypalmer says, some Chinese stuff is not good at all.
I presently own a Jolida 102b, the most affordable of the line. I have two friends who own the aforementioned 302b, which has 50 W instead of the 20 W mine has. The 302b has more power, with better bass slam, and a bit more detail, but the 102 has a special charm that the 302 doesn't have, and this is because of the output tubes used. The 102 uses EL84, which is famous for its sweetness and liquidity (it's often used in guitar amps, and many classic tupe amp designs from Eico and Scott use this tube). I really prefer the 102 to the 302, unless you need more power to drive bigger or less sensitive speakers. A guy on Audioreview who previously owned the 302 and then bought the 102 thinks the same way.
I've owned Creek 5350SE (ex-Stereophile Class A), Creek Evo, Arcam A65 plus, Arcam A80, Simaudio Moon I-3, NAD 320BEE, Exposure 2010, and the Jolida is still the best amp I've had. It just makes me want to sit for hours and enjoy the music. If I compare the Jolida to one of the SS amps I've mentioned, I can always find the SS faster in the bass, with a lower noise floor, and a more controlled sound overall. But the Jolida makes me enjoy the music more than a SS, and that's what hi-fi should do. Now, as raypalmer said: it's a matter of taste. If you like tubes, then you will probably think they sound better than higher priced SS amps.
Some Chinese brands are sold under European names (Vincent for instance) at higher prices. But if you can find the factory in China, you then realize they are sold under a Chinese name at a third of the European price! So you have to be carefull.
I don't know the amp that's on the link, but those stock tubes don't seem of a good quality. Probably the amp itself is good (the transformers are the most important thing), so you can always swap the stock tubes for some Svetlana, Electroharmonix, JJ Tesla, or even better, some NOS tubes, if you can find a good deal.
Regards,
Ros
No, and then yes.
The budget ones are rubbish. The reasonable ones, say Jolida JD302 (although it's not really available in the UK) run 1000bucks and knock around most/if not all of the transistor amps in that 1k to 2k market. But only if you like tubesound. If you want very forward, concise and zippy sound... You'll hate it.
The cheap 3-40watt chinese jobbies and DIY's really aren't very good when you stack them up to the real deals. R&D combined with good craftsmanship remains, not surprisingly, at the top of the list of things that make hi-fi sound good.
In my experience, the answer is yes, but as raypalmer says, some Chinese stuff is not good at all.
I presently own a Jolida 102b, the most affordable of the line. I have two friends who own the aforementioned 302b, which has 50 W instead of the 20 W mine has. The 302b has more power, with better bass slam, and a bit more detail, but the 102 has a special charm that the 302 doesn't have, and this is because of the output tubes used. The 102 uses EL84, which is famous for its sweetness and liquidity (it's often used in guitar amps, and many classic tupe amp designs from Eico and Scott use this tube). I really prefer the 102 to the 302, unless you need more power to drive bigger or less sensitive speakers. A guy on Audioreview who previously owned the 302 and then bought the 102 thinks the same way.
I've owned Creek 5350SE (ex-Stereophile Class A), Creek Evo, Arcam A65 plus, Arcam A80, Simaudio Moon I-3, NAD 320BEE, Exposure 2010, and the Jolida is still the best amp I've had. It just makes me want to sit for hours and enjoy the music. If I compare the Jolida to one of the SS amps I've mentioned, I can always find the SS faster in the bass, with a lower noise floor, and a more controlled sound overall. But the Jolida makes me enjoy the music more than a SS, and that's what hi-fi should do. Now, as raypalmer said: it's a matter of taste. If you like tubes, then you will probably think they sound better than higher priced SS amps.
Some Chinese brands are sold under European names (Vincent for instance) at higher prices. But if you can find the factory in China, you then realize they are sold under a Chinese name at a third of the European price! So you have to be carefull.
I don't know the amp that's on the link, but those stock tubes don't seem of a good quality. Probably the amp itself is good (the transformers are the most important thing), so you can always swap the stock tubes for some Svetlana, Electroharmonix, JJ Tesla, or even better, some NOS tubes, if you can find a good deal.
Regards,
Ros
I thought you finally bought an Arcam
I'd agree with all the remarks that budget and cheap is not a good combination with valve amplifiers as explained in previous posts.
It is safer to buy from an established/specialised dealer or trading station if you know what you want. Most quality second hand tube amplifiers have been looked after. It's just the sort of people that usually buy them.
I had some Audio Innovation amps, used with a variety of speakers but mostly with ruark sabres. Stunning. I believe the 'Bewitch' has been designed with help from the same man that was co-responsible for Audio Innovation.
They pop up periodically for relatively little money.
I'd agree with all the remarks that budget and cheap is not a good combination with valve amplifiers as explained in previous posts.
It is safer to buy from an established/specialised dealer or trading station if you know what you want. Most quality second hand tube amplifiers have been looked after. It's just the sort of people that usually buy them.
I had some Audio Innovation amps, used with a variety of speakers but mostly with ruark sabres. Stunning. I believe the 'Bewitch' has been designed with help from the same man that was co-responsible for Audio Innovation.
They pop up periodically for relatively little money.
Let me put it like this: You can't go wrong with an A32. It's not too forward, not too dark, has plenty of power and grip, has brilliant looks, brilliant reliability and very good array of features.
However, with valve amps there's alot to go wrong and plenty to dislike. They can sound good, but to be honest, with speakers being very controlled these days, they usually sound pretty poor. IMO.
However, with valve amps there's alot to go wrong and plenty to dislike. They can sound good, but to be honest, with speakers being very controlled these days, they usually sound pretty poor. IMO.
Hughes123:Let me put it like this: You can't go wrong with an A32. It's not too forward, not too dark, has plenty of power and grip, has brilliant looks, brilliant reliability and very good array of features.
However, with valve amps there's alot to go wrong and plenty to dislike. They can sound good, but to be honest, with speakers being very controlled these days, they usually sound pretty poor. IMO.
... that is some statement hughes123 ...
However, with valve amps there's alot to go wrong and plenty to dislike. They can sound good, but to be honest, with speakers being very controlled these days, they usually sound pretty poor. IMO.
... that is some statement hughes123 ...
drummerman:Hughes123:Let me put it like this: You can't go wrong with an A32. It's not too forward, not too dark, has plenty of power and grip, has brilliant looks, brilliant reliability and very good array of features.
However, with valve amps there's alot to go wrong and plenty to dislike. They can sound good, but to be honest, with speakers being very controlled these days, they usually sound pretty poor. IMO.
... that is some statement hughes123 ...
IMHO!
However, with valve amps there's alot to go wrong and plenty to dislike. They can sound good, but to be honest, with speakers being very controlled these days, they usually sound pretty poor. IMO.
... that is some statement hughes123 ...
IMHO!
Icon Audio, as said prviously, are a UK based firm who design their products but have them assembled in China. The Stereo 25 picked up a rather good review in Hi Fi World recently and I do recall it described it as having a punchy, lively sound. Anything but poor. IMHO obviously...blanket statements like Hughes123's are pretty general and in my experience valve amps can surprise and thrill in equal measure.
If someone is in the market for an amp up to £600, the Icon Audio deserves a place on the shortlist. By all means, buy a feature laden solid state amp, they're well built (mostly) and do a good job, but valve can be as rewarding, you just have to know what you're buying (but you'd do the reading up anyway) and the characteristics of the various vales you can have on the various amps available.
EDIT: The Puresound valve amp at £1100 is a belter apparently; definately one to consider at the price point.
If someone is in the market for an amp up to £600, the Icon Audio deserves a place on the shortlist. By all means, buy a feature laden solid state amp, they're well built (mostly) and do a good job, but valve can be as rewarding, you just have to know what you're buying (but you'd do the reading up anyway) and the characteristics of the various vales you can have on the various amps available.
EDIT: The Puresound valve amp at £1100 is a belter apparently; definately one to consider at the price point.
If you check out the output transformer layout - are they placed at right angles to each other? How about the mains? Layed down? It may look messy but this is to reduced EM flux interference and is mentioned in the Audio Frequency amp book by Rodenhuis (Philips Technical Library), 1954. If the designers have gotten this right then the chances are, they did a good design job ... hopefully.
I don't see why a good vacuum tube (aka thermionic valve) integrated amp should be horrendously expensive. Can't someone take a good known circuit/component layout and make a sort of 'tribute amp' for mass production? Get it built in India or Malaysia. Use the best generic components, and make it cheap!!
I don't see why a good vacuum tube (aka thermionic valve) integrated amp should be horrendously expensive. Can't someone take a good known circuit/component layout and make a sort of 'tribute amp' for mass production? Get it built in India or Malaysia. Use the best generic components, and make it cheap!!
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