Bought a REGA DAC. Didnt notice as much of a difference as I was hoping! :(

[gurjitsidhu]

Hi all,

So currently I have a Yamaha A-S500 Amp, Matching Yamaha CDS300 CDP and im running Q Acoustic 2050i speakers.
I bought a DAC since i was planning to use the cd player as a transporter and bypass its inbuilt dac. also I can plug the opitcal out from the tv and toslink from Airport Express. So far ive tried the tv and the cdp and it doesnt sound much different. So much so, i plugged the cdp into the dac then the dac to the amp, and at the same time i connected the cdp directly to the amp through phonos (allbeit it was a cheaper phono cable). So i was comparing the CDP dac to the REGA and the difference was very subtle and i can only describe it like the REGA DAC added a little bit of what you would expect when you press the 'loud' button on a system.
That was using the amp in Pure Direct mode, When i turned off pure direct and let the amp do its thing, the difference was negligible meaning the as500 amp was doing its trickery to make the music sound as good as the source going through the REGA.

My conclusions from this is that the as500 amp is better than I thought when its not in pure direct and it has some nifty features to make the music sound good. My next conclusion is that was it worth buying the REGA if another cheap dac could have satisfied my need (which was to connect cdp, tv and Airport Express)? the REGA is second hand and has had enough hours on it. it was bought 1 year ago by the previous owner and has a receipt to prove it.

Any help would be much appreciated since I dont want to feel like ive wasted my money when i could have spent it elsewhere on my hifi system thanks

 

[chebby]

Sell it on.

You should make all the money back as it was already second-hand.

 

[Shanka]

Hi,

I put my Sony ES cd through a dacmagic and noticed no discernable difference, I did notice a big improvement with the tv and an even bigger one with the laptop.

I have heard the rega with spotify and streamed flac files and it works fine with those, I consider it a very good dac but as you don't need one for that and have a decent cd player I would move it on as suggested earlier, you could always try and get a better cd player by moving both on and see what you can get instead.

Good Luck.

 

[psurquhart]

I auditioned one and had a very long play with it (no jokes please) over a long weekend.

Same thoughts as yours really, bit underwhelmed.

I was using admitedly an av amp - Sony da5400es, Airport Express/ Sony Vaio/ Spotify and Blu Ray player - Sony - like yourself trying out all the different options.

I concluded that their was a difference but not so much so that it would want me to part the best part of £500 (new at the time).

I guess it will come down to how much second hand you paid but you do have a pretty good amp and set up already so I would cut your losses and sell it on it it were me.

How much did you pay for it ?

 

[CnoEvil]

IMO. The Rega DAC would not be out of place in a £10k system, so if you have upgrade plans in the future, it might be worth holding onto, as you will then start appreciating its talents.

If you are sticking with what you have for some time, and can sell it on for little loss while getting something at half the cost, then that is an option.

 

[plastic penguin]

After very recently demoing the Rega Dac, I did notice a difference (using the Arcam as transport) but when the dealer plugged in a standard CDP (Naim 5i) the improvement outshone the Dac.

I honestly believe you have found that 'sweet spot' with your current set-up and any individual additions will only be small at best.

 

[Overdose]

Hi all, So currently I have a Yamaha A-S500 Amp, Matching Yamaha CDS300 CDP and im running Q Acoustic 2050i speakers. I bought a DAC since i was planning to use the cd player as a transporter and bypass its inbuilt dac. also I can plug the opitcal out from the tv and toslink from Airport Express. So far ive tried the tv and the cdp and it doesnt sound much different. So much so, i plugged the cdp into the dac then the dac to the amp, and at the same time i connected the cdp directly to the amp through phonos (allbeit it was a cheaper phono cable). So i was comparing the CDP dac to the REGA and the difference was very subtle and i can only describe it like the REGA DAC added a little bit of what you would expect when you press the 'loud' button on a system. That was using the amp in Pure Direct mode, When i turned off pure direct and let the amp do its thing, the difference was negligible meaning the as500 amp was doing its trickery to make the music sound as good as the source going through the REGA. My conclusions from this is that the as500 amp is better than I thought when its not in pure direct and it has some nifty features to make the music sound good. My next conclusion is that was it worth buying the REGA if another cheap dac could have satisfied my need (which was to connect cdp, tv and Airport Express)? the REGA is second hand and has had enough hours on it. it was bought 1 year ago by the previous owner and has a receipt to prove it. Any help would be much appreciated since I dont want to feel like ive wasted my money when i could have spent it elsewhere on my hifi system thanks

Unfortunately, I think that you have just found out the expensive way that sources, particularly digital, have no great affect on sound quality. It is also possible that the only difference heard between your DAC and other sources was a level change due to a higher output voltage from the Rega.

Speakers will give by far the greatest change in sound presentation and then much further behind would be an amplifier. Room acoustics also have a large effect that is usually overlooked.

I have tried many DACs, including different flavours of DIY build and none had any meaningful affect as far as I was concerned.

If you need a DAC for connectivity, then a DACmagic Plus would be as good, but then not that much cheaper. why not just buy an optical switch and cheap DAC?

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Lindy-TosLink-Digital-Optical-Switch/dp/B00517UMNW

For future upgrades, have a look at your room acoustics first and then speakers, the amp might need upgrading too, to be able to properly power the upgraded speakersl, so it all gets rather expensive very quickly.

Better 'bang for your buck' can be had elsewhere though.

My tuppence worth? Sell the Rega and buy the optical switch and a cheap DAC. It all depends on what you want to achieve, but I'd certainly get rid of the Rega as it offers you little in the way of any benefit.

 

[Hi-FiOutlaw]

Rega DAC was one of my first piece of kit that i've bought, in that time i had only a Yamaha AV RX V 750 and a bluray that i use as a player for my digital content, and had a crappy sound quality.

Rega DAC made a big difference in sound quality in my system in that time!

Half year later i had a NAD 3020i and a SBT throught the Rega DAC. I've never played the SBT directly to the NAD and use the internal DAC of the SBT, and one day I got up and did just that!

First i thought to my self ( do you really need the Rega DAC?) as the diferences were not so big as i thought it would be!

But after a long listening, and playing all my favorit tunes the difences got to me! Some details like bass deeph, unplugged instruments like acoustic guitars, pianos. Rega DAC as another sence of timing, as an analog touch into it.

What i want to say is, listen close to the tunes you like the best, and you know back to front, and if after that your oppinion is that your CDP is as good then, do what you think is the best.

Just one thing more, i prefer the coax input on Rega DAC instead of the optical, but you can find threads in here that have some debates on this subject.

Best REGArds

 

[Hi-FiOutlaw]

Double!

 

[dragon76]

Rega is a very nice DAC and it should be used in a proper hi-fi setup to be able to reveal its quality. Digital sources make a lot of difference since this is where your music chain starts. If by inserting Rega DAC one doesn't hear any difference, then there are two reasons for this (1) either the source it replaced was of good quality, or (2) the rest of the system doesn't allow the DAC to show itself in full. It is hard to imagine that adding a DAC to a system consisting of components costing less than Rega (both the Yamaha amp and Q Acoustic are at least one step below Rega) will give any noticable improvements in the sound quality. Get a better amp (Rega Brio-R for example) and some matching speakers, and Rega DAC will be an adequate addition to this set-up.

 

[Native_bon]

All i will say try listening to the rega dac in fairly good system.... then & only then you can make up your mind.. Always trust your ears. If it does not sound good to your ears or not much difference in sound to what you expect then look elsewere.

 

[Superaintit]

You'll get more value for money out of speakers AND a dac gets better with data fed from a mac or correctly setup pc. IME

 

[dbbloke]

Sounds like you've reached the point where you go from hifi to REAL hifi. So you need to take a step in all areas until you notice something good.

Or it could just be you need the gym or your brain/hearing are not up to high end hifi, I know loads of people that aren't.

Not heard an S500 amp, but I can imagine like the Pioneer A400 it bought it's friends (Not so trade secret). Mind you, in the scheme of things, amps can be average and not affect things so much if in balance.

Unless you get a really good DAC - Arcams one sounds nice but at 2k and the whole lampizator looks interesting, but imho with a very mediocre system, it's never going to shine or put you on the road audiophille nirvana.

So what to do..? Almost all the HiFi Shops in the UK I've been to offer rubbish advice to sell their own very british flavoured wares. Travel afar to a good / different one some day. The non budget PMC floorstanders + arcam usuually gives you an idea if this is what you want. Sounds like you are a little lost. Also Linn are doing demo days and So do PMC (I think).

Sell your gear and buy MUCH better stuff. Yep, probably all of it. Read some good hifi sites some ideas here - http://www.statmyweb.com/site/enjoythemusic.com and audition some of the stuff you've never heard of. Or spend big money?

What to do in your case... Sell the Rega, stop wasting money. Change the speakers, but what for ..? Focal might be similar or Usher but it's big money. Keep the speakers and you need to flog the amp and get a real ballsy one, see my sig for preferences. Chinese seems the best bang for buck for sure. Then there is the CDP. I've got a fantastic PCM1794 based machine, don't use it. Switched to computer system. Use a £27 dac with it or a modified behringer (see lampizator site). But you can try the hifimediy usb - decoupled - seperate power - digi out to your rega before you sell just to see, for £40 with a laptop its worth just to see. BTW, I've tried mega chord stuff, other high end sound mediocre btw.

In fact, I've heard great speakers and great amp with average DAC sound amazing. Likewise, Amazing DAC with great amp and bookshelf speakers also make the hair stand up on my neck.

So it's a tricky one. Get tot the Bristol show - early, I might be able to make it if finances ever allow and hear yourself a load of stuff. Most of which will be average, but will give you a good idea.

Good luck. Hope I've at least sparked some thoughts.

 

[SteveR750]

IME the difference between DACs/£££ and other analogue components/££ is quite noticeable. A £3k DAC does indeed sound better than a £500 one, but you can get a much more significant upgrade from spending the same increase on an amp or speakers. Then again, if you've spent £10k+ on your system, then you'd probably want more than a DACmagic+

Therefore, adding a budget DAC to a budget CDP is never going to make much difference, and is probably the least beneficial upgrade / ££ you could make. Expensive DACs make more sense when using computer audio, and then only when the rest of the system is optimised.

 

[dbbloke]

Agree sort of. Although JRiver over foobar If only it wouldnt crash so much.

Of course cheap DAC+CD is pointless.

And Budget dacs dont sound that great (soundstage mostly it seems), but comparing a £25 dac to a mainstream £500 one, well it's pretty close so best get a cheap one and start saving. Depends if you call £500 cheap. Mind you, people say nice things about Aune.

It's the whole - until you get 'real' hifi components you are always wasting your money argument.

 

[Overdose]

Agree sort of. Although JRiver over foobar If only it wouldnt crash so much.

Of course cheap DAC+CD is pointless.

And Budget dacs dont sound that great (soundstage mostly it seems), but comparing a £25 dac to a mainstream £500 one, well it's pretty close so best get a cheap one and start saving. Depends if you call £500 cheap. Mind you, people say nice things about Aune.

It's the whole - until you get 'real' hifi components you are always wasting your money argument.

No DAC should 'sound' at all. It should just get on with doing its job. Audibly transparent DACs can be had for less than £100 and being audibly transparent are as 'hifi' as it's possible to get.

 

[dbbloke]

used to know someone who would say amplifiers are wires with gain! if only science had any relation to sound. on topic, used to have a paid of rega ela's a while back, but not heard anything from rega i the last 5 yrs sound great. sorry.

but 'dacs' as a box between usb and amplifier / headphone just aren't one sound!

e.g. my cdp compared to many a budget dac is like watching an opera with the lights on and being in the room vs lights off in 2d for the budget dac.

budget dacs often sound nice to listen to the individual parts and song but rarely project an immense room in front and around you.

It's hard to choose though given budget constraints. spend big huge on source and cheaper speakers / amp - gives you 3d there experience but instruments sound a bit fake/voices annoying or tiring.

or

amp+speakers aaa++ and budget dac, less involving 3d wise but what you hear is very analytical.

so given a budget and some gear already ....??? hard to comment.

As for my next dac, i have NFI. not heard anything really good, in fact almost so far to say, hifi shops struggle in general to impress at all sq wise. so forums and chinese internet info seems the only option.

 

[gurjitsidhu]

I may have found the issue.....

My Yamaha CDS300 uses a 24bit/192 BurrBrown DAC. However, when I conect the digital out from the cd player to the rega dac, the rega dac only shows it as a 44khz input and thats a massive difference. So is the reason why i cant hear any appreciable difference between the cd player and the Rega dac is because the cd player's digital out does not provide a 24/192 output??

i was playing about on the mac and changing the output from 16bit 44.1 to 24/96 and i noticed a big difference so this would probably make sense. can anyone please advise if this is common on CD players?

thanks

 

[nopiano]

I may have found the issue.....

My Yamaha CDS300 uses a 24bit/192 BurrBrown DAC. However, when I conect the digital out from the cd player to the rega dac, the rega dac only shows it as a 44khz input and thats a massive difference. So is the reason why i cant hear any appreciable difference between the cd player and the Rega dac is because the cd player's digital out does not provide a 24/192 output??

i was playing about on the mac and changing the output from 16bit 44.1 to 24/96 and i noticed a big difference so this would probably make sense. can anyone please advise if this is common on CD players?

CD standard is 16 bit 44.1KHz. The DAC is dealing with it as it should. If you hear no difference then there probably is none. The DAC will only be helpful with hires sources from your Mac.

 

[Overdose]

I may have found the issue.....

My Yamaha CDS300 uses a 24bit/192 BurrBrown DAC. However, when I conect the digital out from the cd player to the rega dac, the rega dac only shows it as a 44khz input and thats a massive difference. So is the reason why i cant hear any appreciable difference between the cd player and the Rega dac is because the cd player's digital out does not provide a 24/192 output??

i was playing about on the mac and changing the output from 16bit 44.1 to 24/96 and i noticed a big difference so this would probably make sense. can anyone please advise if this is common on CD players?

There are no sound differences or real terms playback benefits between 44.1KHz/16 bit and higher resolutions, so it is no surprise that you hear no difference. CD quality is 44.1KHz/16bit and the DAC will just be converting this resolution.

The analogue output stages are responsible for any sound differences that might be evident, but even then these are quite small as you have discovered.

 

[gurjitsidhu]

Hey,

thanks for the replies. But when the cds300 manual and marketting stuff says that its got a 24/192 Burrbrown Dac in is, I assume that means the resolution of what it reads off the disk- 192,000 analysis of information per second with each one being 24bit big, then it outputs this to the analogue part of the cd player.

what i dnt get is why is the cd player digital out getting the info off the disk at a higher res? even though cd's may be recorded at 16/48, it would still be possible to read them at a higher resolution otherwise why would manufacturers put in a high res dac? thats what I was meaning. i want to get the cd players digital out at a higher res.

i was playing about with the macbook pro, and changing the output from 16/48khz to 24/96khz and it was a huge difference! could not believe that i would even be able to hear it. i heard more of a difference with that, than the Yamaha cd player DAC vs the Rega dac- so thats impressive.

Needless to say, I want to stream always now using the higher resolution however my Airport express only supports 16/48 which sucks majorly!

thanks!

 

[ID.]

Hey,

thanks for the replies. But when the cds300 manual and marketting stuff says that its got a 24/192 Burrbrown Dac in is, I assume that means the resolution of what it reads off the disk- 192,000 analysis of information per second with each one being 24bit big, then it outputs this to the analogue part of the cd player.

what i dnt get is why is the cd player digital out getting the info off the disk at a higher res? even though cd's may be recorded at 16/48, it would still be possible to read them at a higher resolution otherwise why would manufacturers put in a high res dac? thats what I was meaning. i want to get the cd players digital out at a higher res.

i was playing about with the macbook pro, and changing the output from 16/48khz to 24/96khz and it was a huge difference! could not believe that i would even be able to hear it. i heard more of a difference with that, than the Yamaha cd player DAC vs the Rega dac- so thats impressive.

Needless to say, I want to stream always now using the higher resolution however my Airport express only supports 16/48 which sucks majorly!

thanks!

No. You've been told above that CD only has 16 bit 44.1 kHz resolution. That is all the CD player can read off it. You aren't getting a higher resolution off your CD.

Some CD players then upsample that to 24 bit, which arguably makes no difference. Some even claim it makes it sound less natural. The only other benefits of having a 24/92 or higher specced DAC chip are that it is more powerful so is better even when converting lower resolution files and it can be used to convert files that are higher resolution than CD (which, again, some argue that you can't hear the difference anyway).

IIRC, that CD player has an input you can use for iPods. iPods can playback up to 24bit 48khz files. I have a 32 bit DAC in my kit, even though I've never heard of 32 bit music.

Increasing the resolution of the Mac's output just means that the Mac is upsampling the files, but really they can't add in anything that wasn't there before, so theoretically you should be hearing no difference/the difference you hear may be completely psychological because you were expecting a higher resolution to sound better. Most people try to get a bit perfect output form their computer - i.e. not have the computer do any processing like upsampling so the DAC receives the digital file as it was originally meant to be.

 

[TweekSpeek]

It sounds like you're still a little fuzzy on what's happening with your CDP's 24/192 DAC and why it outputs 16bit/44.1kHz to your Rega DAC...

Keep in mind that when you connect your CDP digitally to a stand-alone DAC you are bypassing the DAC inside your CDP, therefore no upsampling will occur on the digital signal. When outputing analog signals (to a preamp, powered receiver, or amps with their own volume control) digital data from your CDP is read and then converted to analog by the internal DAC....hence the term "digital to analog" conversion. So it's not marketing hype by Yamaha in stating that the chip is 24bit/192kHz capable.

There are multiple schools of thought on the benefits or detriment of upsampling (won't get into that here), but most literature you'll read that comes with stand-alone DACs will tell you that for optimal results, NOT to use upsamping features on computer sources. The preference is to send the native/original signal to the DAC and have it do the upsampling....Also note, that many of the DACs and their designers that dislike upsampling still employ chips that upsample (for the same purpose), but they take the signal back to native though sample rate conversion to 16bit/44.1kHz.

Others have already touched on many reasons why you may not be hearing much of difference, so I won't rehash (much)...Have you considered that your Yamaha may be a good CDP, but not be a very good digital transport??? It's quite possible that it may be sending on high levels of jitter to the Rega through whatever connection you're using. Maybe try switching from coaxial to optical or vice versa......but at any rate, it sounds like you have discovered why lots of people have decided to migrate from CDPs to computer-based systems and hi-rez files.

As previously stated by others, there are many variables that determine what your system will sound like...so for some to simply say to buy or get rid of a particular piece of gear is NOT giving you the best advice....some gear will accentuate or suppress certain areas of the audio band and ultimately affect the tonality of your system. Keep in mind even a subtle change in speaker placement can make a huge sonic difference. So, the point I'm making is that you may want to experiment some before running off to buy or sell a particular piece of gear....trust YOUR ears more than anybody else's, then decide what YOU want to do based on YOUR listening preferences.

Happy Listening! :cheers:

 

[dbbloke]

Headphones can sound very different when swapping between. Your brain adjusts!

Or not quite the same but just get an amp with tone and turn up the treble. Funny your brain will adjust and if you set it back to flat it will sound terrible for a while until you adjust again.

So you can get used to a sound (more complicated with entire system chains). As such, you will be biased and give credence to the use your own ears argument above

BUT some people know hifi (hence people read reviews) and others dont. So do you live in a world of where only your opinions and closed mindedness limits your appreciation of the world? Or give other peoples advice a chance Lots of people around though with bad advice who kid themselves though.

So in some ways, hi-fi and most things in life can be objective.

24bit/96 is the sweet spot BTW for numerous reasons but only for futureproofing or specific scenarios.

 

[335guy]

Late to this thread but here's my contribution. A year ago, I auditioned the Rega DAC several times against several other similar and lower priced units (Cambridge, Peachtree, MF) with the store guys insisting that it would greatly improve the sound of my CA 640Cv2 CDP, plus give me a better computer audio interface than the DAC in the Apple AX I was using. The CDP improvement was minimal. At the time, computer audio was not a priority, though I had been wholly disappointed with the sound coming through the AX. But the Rega stood out as the winner, should I choose to make the plunge.

Fast forward to a physical storage problem with the CDs (time to load up one of the many spare laptops with ALAC digital audio) and an opportunity to pick up a used Rega DAC at 50% of retail and I made the plunge. Having only USB out of my spare laptop, I was limited to 44.1 using the Motorola circuits (USB only) in the Rega DAC, but it sounded slightly better than the CDs, but allowed me to box up the CDs and run the music from my iPhone.

Next, I picked up a Peachtree X1 USB to SPDIF converter that 1) allowed me to make use of the dual Wolfson circuits in the Rega (SPDIF only) and 2) play higher res files. Much bigger difference. I re-ripped my CD library to JRiver in FLAC which improved the sound, and picked up a few high res audio files that sound really nice. The jury is still out whether 192/24 is any better than 96/24, though both seem an improvement over the 44.1 CD rips. Seems like the big variable could be in the original recording and the quality of the mastering.

Bottom line - I'm a died-in-the-wool vinyl afficianado who has only recently wholly embraced digital audio. Where I once considered digital audio as strictly a convenience with major sonic compromises, it is now a forefront medium for me. The flexibility and value of the Rega DAC helped me make this leap forward. But it's not the only answer...