Big bass in small room - utopia?

[steve_1979]

Here's a 20 Hz - 20 KHz sine wave sweep. Clicky

Thanks, Steve! Useful! :cheers:

Everything's on the interweb,you just need to find it (or be pointed to it by some one else).

Even without any proper measuring equipment listening to a sine wave sweep can sometimes be used as a rough guide for picking out any major peaks or troughs too.

 

[plastic penguin]

How does one know that we are hearing 30hz or 100hz??

Here's a 20 Hz - 20 KHz sine wave sweep. Clicky

Listening to this my 10" sub makes a tiny bit of noise from 20 Hz but only starts having proper output from 32 Hz.

The 5.25" woofer in the Neutrons start making noise at about 45 Hz and have proper output by 55 Hz.

Holy EDITED you've clearly been watching the Ipcress File.

Listen to me... listen to me... listen to me...

 

[RobinKidderminster]

Also, if I put my biggest speakers (with an extended frequency response) in my 10m2 room I can hear hear lots of content from 30hz to 100hz on rock, pop, reggae, dance, organ music recordings, as well as ......

Sorry. I was referring to above. Thanks for the tones tho.

 

[davedotco]

I think the key to this issue is finding out what bass frequencies are needed for the results you want and what are not.

It is my experience that people rarely have any idea of what they are listening to in terms of frequencies, at both ends of the spectrum, though here we are talking about bass.

It is worth remembering that if an LP (vinyl) plays for 20 minutes a side, ie most comercial releases, the deep bass will be largely absent, filtered at 12db/octave with a -3db point of 70hz. But then bottom e on a bass guitar (about 41hz) is barely audible on most instruments and when equalising a bass drum for more weight or body frequencies around 150hz are usually where the lift is applied.

Most people complaining about a lack of bass in their systems are lacking mid bass punch, 100-300hz though they often think the problems are at lower frequencies, hence the misplaced desire for a subwoofer.

In smallish rooms the first thing to do is to remove the low bass, pretty much anything under 100hz can go, even if there are such frequencies on the recording you will barely hear them, the space is too small and any energy in this area will just go into moving the floor and walls and rattling the furniture.

Not quite. What does RIAA do?

Helps, but is not the only factor, you need to look at bandwidth, dynamic range and maximum recording level. Modern cutting lathes have variable groove spacing which is actually the biggest single factor in maximising playing time.

There are plenty of really obvious examples, compilation albums for example are often low level with minimal bass, but with any album the balancing act between playback level, bass bandwidth and playing time is a difficult one.

CD is clearly different but again, most people in my aquaintance (and when tested) tend to judge bass notes as being much lower than they actually are.

 

[lindsayt]

How does one know that we are hearing 30hz or 100hz??

There are various ways, including feeding the signal through a variable active crossover such as an Ashly xr1001, where the crossover is used to cut off frequencies above a variable point. And gradually reducing this variable point down to 40hz.

It sounds crazily horrible when you do this. Like listening to a fair ground booming out music the other side of a large park - except much worse.

You can also do the opposite and cut off music below a variable point, which makes the system sound like a transistor radio, or like a lean hi-fi system when you set the cut off point right down at 40hz.

 

[RobinKidderminster]

Are u suggesting this has been done? I was referring to being able to 'hear lots of content from 30hz to 100hz in rock & pop'. Not using instruments to measure which is clearly a different scenario.

 

[Electro]

I found this chart interesting .

It shows how audible frequency of most common types of instrument and other noises .

http://www.independentrecording.net/irn/resources/freqchart/images/main_chart.jpg

 

[davedotco]

I found this chart interesting .

It shows how audible frequency of most common types of instrument and other noises .

http://www.independentrecording.net/irn/resources/freqchart/images/main_chart.jpg

Very interesting, but only part of the story.

With the exception of church organ or electronic music, bass notes are rich in harmonics and the lowest fundamentals play only a very small part in defining what we hear. For jazz, rock and popular music of all kinds the octave 35-70hz contributes little to the musical experience, sure some recordings have more in that region than others but it is rarely of any great consequence..

I mentioned earlier, non experts invariably think bass notes are deeper than they actually are and in real music there is little of any consequence below about 82 hz, bottom E on a guitar or E2 on a piano. Some instruments can go deeper, but they rarely do and even then, the contribution of the fundamental is only a small part of whole texture of the note.

In a difficult room such as the OPs 3 x 3 meter space the primary resonance is going to be around 85 - 90hz, putting any speaker close to a wall is going to drive these frequencies to excess, bass trapping in a room that size is impractical and good eq, a variable Q parametric to 'notch out' the resonant frequency is hard to come by in the hi-fi world.

The only practical way to produce tight punchy bass in such a space is to move both the speakers and the listener well out into the centre of the room, the speakers one third of the way down the room and the listener close to the center. That will work, though it is propable unacceptable domestically.

 

[MakkaPakka]

In a difficult room such as the OPs 3 x 3 meter space the primary resonance is going to be around 85 - 90hz, putting any speaker close to a wall is going to drive these frequencies to excess, bass trapping in a room that size is impractical and good eq, a variable Q parametric to 'notch out' the resonant frequency is hard to come by in the hi-fi world.

The only practical way to produce tight punchy bass in such a space is to move both the speakers and the listener well out into the centre of the room, the speakers one third of the way down the room and the listener close to the center. That will work, though it is propable unacceptable domestically.

I have a similar size room and you're spot on about the reasonance - I had a huge spike at 90hz. It was only by measuring this I found it out - prior to that I thought the bass sounded great and my only problem was a bit of slap echo.

As to whether or not bass trapping is practical in a room that size - it depdends. I would say you absolutely must put a bass trap in a corner behind each speaker because when I did that it was a real jaw dropper (and people don't usually have anything in that space anyway). I have quite a lot of bass trapping in that room (8 traps of various sizes) but only because its a 'dedicated' room. If it was my main living room then what I have wouldn't be acceptable. You absolutely can 'fix' a room of this size because I've got the graphs to prove it. The dfference between 90 and 110 is down to about 4.3db now from something like 9db.

Based on my experience, I disagree slightly with the speaker positioning comments. I found that once past a certain point there was no benefit to moving them forward - about a foot and a half is as far as they got. At the moment they're only a foot away but that is party due to a problem chimney breast as you want symmetry as far as possible. Something else I found was that moving the listening position back further helped a lot even though you're generally advised to not be to close to the rear wall. But, of course, it depends. That's why I say people should spend £15 on an SPL and measure their room - it is not hard to do at all and allows you to tweak and see what's happening. Even just moving the speakers an inch or two can make a big difference.

 

[DocG]

In a difficult room such as the OPs 3 x 3 meter space the primary resonance is going to be around 85 - 90hz, putting any speaker close to a wall is going to drive these frequencies to excess, bass trapping in a room that size is impractical and good eq, a variable Q parametric to 'notch out' the resonant frequency is hard to come by in the hi-fi world.

Any experience with digital room and speaker correction, Dave?

 

[davedotco]

MakkaPakka.

It is always interesting to hear from someone who has actually 'done it', all rooms of course are slightly different, even with the same basic dimensions and it is good to see that you were able to treat it successfully but in a dedicated room it is much easier than in a normal living space, which is what I was trying to get at.

Similarly speaker positioning is different every time, generally I like plenty of air around the speakers hence the one third down the room suggestion and if the speakers are good I rather like the 'near field' experience which i find minimises other room issues, particularly if you want to play quite loud.

Still no substitute for trying things for yourself and working out what works for you in your environment, I hate even the smallest hint of overhang at the bass end, so maybe my prefered speaker postioning is more extreme than most,

Doc.

In the studio world there was a time when heavy eq, both digital and analog, was 'all the rage' but these days it is quite rare, the better studios built decent rooms and leave it at that. Some smaller monitors from the likes of Genelec and JBL use dsp to equalise the speaker to the room but I have little up to date experience of this.

In hi-fi terms I have only ever once used dsp room/speaker eq, with a Tact Millenium. Sounded great initially, really seemed to clean up the response but when I visited the client again he had it switched out, he reckoned 'it made every thing sound the same'. Not exactly conclusive.

 

[chebby]

Here's a 20 Hz - 20 KHz sine wave sweep. Clicky

I just tried this with my Logitech BoomBox Mini (Bluetooth from laptop) listening from about 2 feet away. It 'woke up' around 95 Hz and I was gratified that I could still hear it up until just over 15KHz.

Whether my ears packed up at that frequency - or the Boombox Mini did - I still have to establish (later on with my wife's headphones when she has finished with them upstairs.)

However, regardless of the thread subject matter, your 'sweep' link has cheered me up immensely this morning. 15 point something KHz detectable in at least one ear (possibly both) at my age was unexpected.

Thanks Steve.

As you all were.

 

[steve_1979]

Here's a 20 Hz - 20 KHz sine wave sweep. Clicky

I just tried this with my Logitech BoomBox Mini (Bluetooth from laptop) listening from about 2 feet away. It 'woke up' around 95 Hz and I was gratified that I could still hear it up until just over 15KHz.

Whether my ears packed up at that frequency - or the Boombox Mini did - I still have to establish (later on with my wife's headphones when she has finished with them upstairs.)

However, regardless of the thread subject matter, your 'sweep' link has cheered me up immensely this morning. 15 point something KHz detectable in at least one ear (possibly both) at my age was unexpected.

Thanks Steve.

As you all were.

Mine is about average for my age. It's good upto about 17Khz on a good day but sometimes drops to just above 16Khz on a bad day. I don't know why it changes sometimes but it does.

I've always used a sine wave sweep when demoing speakers. Apart from obviously helping to assess the frequency response it's also (more importantly IMO) helpful for picking out any nasties such as phase issues around the crossover frequencies. IME most of the speakers that play a sine wave sweep the smoothest through the crossover frequencies are usually the speakers that also sound the most natural with music.

 

[altruistic.lemon]

Very interesting, but only part of the story.

With the exception of church organ or electronic music, bass notes are rich in harmonics and the lowest fundamentals play only a very small part in defining what we hear. For jazz, rock and popular music of all kinds the octave 35-70hz contributes little to the musical experience, sure some recordings have more in that region than others but it is rarely of any great consequence..

I mentioned earlier, non experts invariably think bass notes are deeper than they actually are and in real music there is little of any consequence below about 82 hz, bottom E on a guitar or E2 on a piano. Some instruments can go deeper, but they rarely do and even then, the contribution of the fundamental is only a small part of whole texture of the note...

Low E on a bass guitar is lower at 41hz, 82.41 is for an ordinary six string.

Be aware low bass can kill - see http://journal.borderlands.com/1996/the-sonic-weapon-of-vladimir-gavreau/ !

 

[MakkaPakka]

Mine is about average for my age. It's good upto about 17Khz on a good day but sometimes drops to just above 16Khz on a bad day. I don't know why it changes sometimes but it does.

I'm the same age as you and I was done at 14,620

 

[RobinKidderminster]

I think my sub goes down to 7hz a-l. No wonder some TV leaves me feelin' sick

 

[steve_1979]

Mine is about average for my age. It's good upto about 17Khz on a good day but sometimes drops to just above 16Khz on a bad day. I don't know why it changes sometimes but it does.

I'm the same age as you and I was done at 14,620

I've spent my whole life being careful to protect my hearing and it seems to be paying dividends now that I'm getting older. I've always been especially careful with music volume when listening to earphones and even used to take earplugs to raves and gigs in case they were too loud.

 

[davedotco]

Very interesting, but only part of the story.

With the exception of church organ or electronic music, bass notes are rich in harmonics and the lowest fundamentals play only a very small part in defining what we hear. For jazz, rock and popular music of all kinds the octave 35-70hz contributes little to the musical experience, sure some recordings have more in that region than others but it is rarely of any great consequence..

I mentioned earlier, non experts invariably think bass notes are deeper than they actually are and in real music there is little of any consequence below about 82 hz, bottom E on a guitar or E2 on a piano. Some instruments can go deeper, but they rarely do and even then, the contribution of the fundamental is only a small part of whole texture of the note...

Low E on a bass guitar is lower at 41hz, 82.41 is for an ordinary six string.

Be aware low bass can kill - see http://journal.borderlands.com/1996/the-sonic-weapon-of-vladimir-gavreau/ !

At it again eh Al, and wrong as usual.

I'm begining to wonder if you can actually read or are just faking it.

Where, exactly, did I say I was talking about a bass guitar?

I am well aware where bottom E is on a bass guitar, I mentioned it earlier in the thread, along with the observation that few, if any, commercial designs produce any significant output at those frequencies.

 

[davedotco]

Mine is about average for my age. It's good upto about 17Khz on a good day but sometimes drops to just above 16Khz on a bad day. I don't know why it changes sometimes but it does.

I'm the same age as you and I was done at 14,620

I've spent my whole life being careful to protect my hearing and it seems to be paying dividends now that I'm getting older. I've always been especially careful with music volume when listening to earphones and even used to take earplugs to raves and gigs in case they were too loud.

Hearing loss is an interesting subject all of it's own and given my working life of some interest to me. There is some research that suggests that hearing loss is related to stress, ie unpleasant noisy work environments have greater effect than enjoyable though equally loud music.

Personally I think the big issue is sustained exposure, a few gigs are unlikely to do serious damage but every day, a different situation.

My own damage is related to the ability to discriminate one sound from another, best explanation is that, in a noisy crowded bar (say), I find it hard to evesdrop by picking and following one conversation out of the general hubbub. First noticed this when I hit the big 50!

 

[altruistic.lemon]

Low E on a bass guitar is lower at 41hz, 82.41 is for an ordinary six string.

Be aware low bass can kill - see http://journal.borderlands.com/1996/the-sonic-weapon-of-vladimir-gavreau/ !

At it again eh Al, and wrong as usual.

I'm begining to wonder if you can actually read or are just faking it.

Where, exactly, did I say I was talking about a bass guitar?

I am well aware where bottom E is on a bass guitar, I mentioned it earlier in the thread, along with the observation that few, if any, commercial designs produce any significant output at those frequencies.

No, I was clarifying, that's all, as you talked about bass quitar here

But then bottom e on a bass guitar (about 41hz) is barely audible ...

as you acknowledge, then you hopped over to six string for your figures.

How are you on Dr Gavreau? I found it fascinating reading.

 

[matt49]

I've spent my whole life being careful to protect my hearing and it seems to be paying dividends now that I'm getting older. I've always been especially careful with music volume when listening to earphones and even used to take earplugs to raves and gigs in case they were too loud.

Hearing loss is an interesting subject all of it's own and given my working life of some interest to me. There is some research that suggests that hearing loss is related to stress, ie unpleasant noisy work environments have greater effect than enjoyable though equally loud music.

Personally I think the big issue is sustained exposure, a few gigs are unlikely to do serious damage but every day, a different situation.

My own damage is related to the ability to discriminate one sound from another, best explanation is that, in a noisy crowded bar (say), I find it hard to evesdrop by picking and following one conversation out of the general hubbub. First noticed this when I hit the big 50!

High frequency hearing in middle-aged males varies very widely. The most significant factor determining hearing loss is most likely to be genetic. So whilst it's a good idea to protect your hearing, it doesn't guarantee that your hearing will remain good. Most of the people you see wearing hearing aids will not have experienced any externally caused damage to their hearing. And if your hearing does remain pin sharp, the most likely explanation is lucky genes.

 

[RobinKidderminster]

And we deaf old bast'###s insist on setting up our av/hifi systems!

 

[davedotco]

I've spent my whole life being careful to protect my hearing and it seems to be paying dividends now that I'm getting older. I've always been especially careful with music volume when listening to earphones and even used to take earplugs to raves and gigs in case they were too loud.

Hearing loss is an interesting subject all of it's own and given my working life of some interest to me. There is some research that suggests that hearing loss is related to stress, ie unpleasant noisy work environments have greater effect than enjoyable though equally loud music.

Personally I think the big issue is sustained exposure, a few gigs are unlikely to do serious damage but every day, a different situation.

My own damage is related to the ability to discriminate one sound from another, best explanation is that, in a noisy crowded bar (say), I find it hard to evesdrop by picking and following one conversation out of the general hubbub. First noticed this when I hit the big 50!

High frequency hearing in middle-aged males varies very widely. The most significant factor determining hearing loss is most likely to be genetic. So whilst it's a good idea to protect your hearing, it doesn't guarantee that your hearing will remain good. Most of the people you see wearing hearing aids will not have experienced any externally caused damage to their hearing. And if your hearing does remain pin sharp, the most likely explanation is lucky genes.

If we are talking of the population as a whole, then I am sure you are pretty much on the money.

On the other hand I have met far to many hard of hearing rock musicians for this to be a coincidence.

 

[lindsayt]

Are u suggesting this has been done? I was referring to being able to 'hear lots of content from 30hz to 100hz in rock & pop'. Not using instruments to measure which is clearly a different scenario.

Sure, I've done it. Just playing about with the bits I've got at home. With the main purpose being to check that the drivers in my speakers were all working and that each driver was balanced with the other channel. But also as an experiment to hear what the various drivers were contributing to the overall sound.

 

[lindsayt]

Very interesting, but only part of the story.

With the exception of church organ or electronic music, bass notes are rich in harmonics and the lowest fundamentals play only a very small part in defining what we hear. For jazz, rock and popular music of all kinds the octave 35-70hz contributes little to the musical experience, sure some recordings have more in that region than others but it is rarely of any great consequence..

I mentioned earlier, non experts invariably think bass notes are deeper than they actually are and in real music there is little of any consequence below about 82 hz, bottom E on a guitar or E2 on a piano. Some instruments can go deeper, but they rarely do and even then, the contribution of the fundamental is only a small part of whole texture of the note.

In a difficult room such as the OPs 3 x 3 meter space the primary resonance is going to be around 85 - 90hz, putting any speaker close to a wall is going to drive these frequencies to excess, bass trapping in a room that size is impractical and good eq, a variable Q parametric to 'notch out' the resonant frequency is hard to come by in the hi-fi world.

The only practical way to produce tight punchy bass in such a space is to move both the speakers and the listener well out into the centre of the room, the speakers one third of the way down the room and the listener close to the center. That will work, though it is propable unacceptable domestically.

Check out these measurements:

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/mastering-forum/629542-low-frequency-response-rap-pop-rock-music.html

My take on it is that there is a significant amount of content below 70hz on most of the recordings I listen to. And on some recordings, such as Lady Ga Ga Born this Way, theres more content at 30 hz than there is at any other single frequnecy in the spectrum. If I have a system that filters out the signal from 70hz downwards then that is not very good fidelity. And most importantly of all, I can easily hear the difference between my least extended speakers and my most extended, with me having a big preference for my most extended speakers - especially when they're in a well furnished room.

Some speakers which produce relatively tight punchy bass are designed to be used within 2 inches of the corners of the room. Which I think is sensible speaker design. Something that works with the room enclosure instead of fighting against it.