Big bass in small room - utopia?

[Chaloff]

Hi friends,

I have read and heard a lot that it is not possible to achieve good bass in a small room. Mine is 10m2. The bass would be boomy and uncontrolled. My first speakers were Dali Zenzors 5 floorstanders. They proved me it's not possible. Changed them for CM1s bookshelf speakers. Still on high volumes the bass is uncontrolled and boomy. "Too little space" they say. "Learn physics, read about wave length", "Forget about good bass". "They" are sales guys from hi-fi shops.

When I ask "Why in the very limited space of a car you can have good and tight bass" and "Why in the head-phones you can hear great bass" they start to babble some indefinit ideas about different technologies but having no idea about those technologies.

So I have two questions:

1) Is it really impossible to have good quality bass in a small room like mine with hi-fi speakers? Any ideas about those spiritual technologies?

2) If still there's a chance, then please advise stand-mounted speakers capable to work in a small room on mid and high volumes. And at low at very low volumes too, as now I use tone controlls at night. (I am familiar with loudness term. Let's omit it).

Yet, I suggest to neglect room acoustics subject. It is not possible for me to change speaker place (they now stand as far from walls as possible (0,5 - 1 m) and I am not ready to move furniture or cover walls with some stuff.

Thanks!

 

[bluedroog]

There is a world of difference between deep bass and good bass, I suppose we need to know which is your primary, I’d imagine somewhere between the two. Of course there are limitations in space and presumably budget so there are always compromises. Room treatment should be something you look at but I think an effective solution would be a decent subwoofer with EQ, either a BK XXLS400 or Monolith (my preference would be for the 400 but go for the Monolith is you’re a bass junkie) and an anti-mode, the anti mode should help in the small room and give you quality bass.

 

[relocated]

Good bass, accurate bass, is easy to get in your size room[excluding horrendous building issues]. Depends what your budget is and whether you are willing to go down a different path.

Try to listen to some proper 'active' speakers, probably at a local pro-music shop, and see if that makes a difference to your ears.

From ownership experience I would recommend the AVI ADM 9 series, current/future model @ £1250 delivered. This includes dac, pre & power amps and remote, just plug your Oppo in and you're away. My AVI ADM 9Ts presented very good bass in a 30+ sq m room and they don't boom where they are now, in probably the same sq meterage as your room.

 

[plastic penguin]

I've pretty much got the right combination of good and deep bass in a small/medium sized room. It's pretty much a hybrid of old skool deep, chunky bass and modern day agility and detail. But it comes at a price: Drives you ga ga trying to achieve the right balance. Once there, bliss.

Ideal speakers: PMC DB1i or perhaps Kef R300*.

*No personal experience of these speakers but from the dimensions they should give you a huge bang for your buck.

 

[bluebrazil]

i ran my current dynaudio 52se's in a small room with no problem at all with an 8vs2 amp.

as soon as i swapped to pre power tho the bass became unlistenable. luckily i moved to a larger room soon after and experienced the opposite. speaker to room matching is important but its the speaker, amp and room conundrum that needs to be spot on. i consider myself no expert and i just lucked into getting it right at the right time.

if i was to recommend a combo similar i would say dynaudio exite x12 and probably a cyrus 8 range amp. maybe even a 6 as the exites are supposed to be an easy load. its not the watts per channel that matters but the current delivery as an 8vs2 is 70wpc and a single 8 power supposed to be 60. the 8 power just energised the speaker so much more tho and maybe it was the way it changed how the cones moved that was the difference. sorry for babbling.

 

[bluebrazil]

btw i find both the cm1's and nad amps tend to emphasise bass a little to much, but you like bass and dont want to go without, its hard.

did you try the bungs in the b and w's?

small actives may be the way to go as your going to get well matched amp and speaker

 

[the record spot]

No issues here for me. The biggest factor is the quality of the recording, movies are fine and I don't want earth pounding bass anyway. Neighbours to consider too but the bass I get is ample for my needs and I don't feel as if I'm losing out. Tannoy turned out a beauty in the DC4 I think.

 

[DocG]

There is a world of difference between deep bass and good bass, I suppose we need to know which is your primary, I’d imagine somewhere between the two. Of course there are limitations in space and presumably budget so there are always compromises. Room treatment should be something you look at but I think an effective solution would be a decent subwoofer with EQ, either a BK XXLS400 or Monolith (my preference would be for the 400 but go for the Monolith is you’re a bass junkie) and an anti-mode, the anti mode should help in the small room and give you quality bass.

+1 for the AntiMode. I think adding a room correction system will give you the most bang for your buck. It'll help you get rid of the nastiest room modes. For more alternatives, check out these threads: http://www.whathifi.com/forum/hi-fi/digital-room-correction and http://www.whathifi.com/forum/hi-fi/digital-room-correction-0.

 

[ISAC69]

Mu suspicion is that the problem is with your NAD 356 amp and not with your speakers , It has an over-bass presntation . You should check it out .The Audiolab amps for example are more laid back , Rotel more neutral act.

 

[Chaloff]

There is a world of difference between deep bass and good bass, I suppose we need to know which is your primary, I’d imagine somewhere between the two. Of course there are limitations in space and presumably budget so there are always compromises. Room treatment should be something you look at but I think an effective solution would be a decent subwoofer with EQ, either a BK XXLS400 or Monolith (my preference would be for the 400 but go for the Monolith is you’re a bass junkie) and an anti-mode, the anti mode should help in the small room and give you quality bass.

You are right about the difference, and mine is between the two. I hate jumbo woofers and deep bass of about 10Hz. Even feel it can damage me. And I understand that bookshelves at price up to $1500 can not perform lower than 40-45 Hz. That would be more than enough for me. Moreover I feel that rock music punch is located at about 100Hz and the lower like 50Hz just can support it. This 50Hz is not strong as it comes out of the port. That's how I understand.

I have also old Acoustic Energy 12" sub. But it adds even more modes if I switch it on for experiments. Still some say it's not a musical machine. So I'll anyway keep your advise in mind.

 

[Chaloff]

I've pretty much got the right combination of good and deep bass in a small/medium sized room. It's pretty much a hybrid of old skool deep, chunky bass and modern day agility and detail. But it comes at a price: Drives you ga ga trying to achieve the right balance. Once there, bliss.

Ideal speakers: PMC DB1i or perhaps Kef R300*.

*No personal experience of these speakers but from the dimensions they should give you a huge bang for your buck.

How did you achieve the ballance, PP? With gadgets in your signature or with DB1?

 

[Chaloff]

i ran my current dynaudio 52se's in a small room with no problem at all with an 8vs2 amp.

as soon as i swapped to pre power tho the bass became unlistenable. luckily i moved to a larger room soon after and experienced the opposite. speaker to room matching is important but its the speaker, amp and room conundrum that needs to be spot on. i consider myself no expert and i just lucked into getting it right at the right time.

if i was to recommend a combo similar i would say dynaudio exite x12 and probably a cyrus 8 range amp. maybe even a 6 as the exites are supposed to be an easy load. its not the watts per channel that matters but the current delivery as an 8vs2 is 70wpc and a single 8 power supposed to be 60. the 8 power just energised the speaker so much more tho and maybe it was the way it changed how the cones moved that was the difference. sorry for babbling.

I know Cyrus is a very respected company. But the fasade is tears and won't even the 8 be too week for CMs?

Babbling? Haha, you were not babbling. Thanks

 

[Chaloff]

oops. You advised Dyns with Cyrus. Sorry.

This shows how I like my CMs. Love and hate

 

[Chaloff]

btw i find both the cm1's and nad amps tend to emphasise bass a little to much, but you like bass and dont want to go without, its hard.

did you try the bungs in the b and w's?

small actives may be the way to go as your going to get well matched amp and speaker

I did try bungs. Sound became flat like many other speakers of this range - flat. No punch for rock n roll.

 

[Chaloff]

No issues here for me. The biggest factor is the quality of the recording, movies are fine and I don't want earth pounding bass anyway. Neighbours to consider too but the bass I get is ample for my needs and I don't feel as if I'm losing out. Tannoy turned out a beauty in the DC4 I think.

DC4 noted. Thanks!

 

[Chaloff]

There is a world of difference between deep bass and good bass, I suppose we need to know which is your primary, I’d imagine somewhere between the two. Of course there are limitations in space and presumably budget so there are always compromises. Room treatment should be something you look at but I think an effective solution would be a decent subwoofer with EQ, either a BK XXLS400 or Monolith (my preference would be for the 400 but go for the Monolith is you’re a bass junkie) and an anti-mode, the anti mode should help in the small room and give you quality bass.

+1 for the AntiMode. I think adding a room correction system will give you the most bang for your buck. It'll help you get rid of the nastiest room modes. For more alternatives, check out these threads: http://www.whathifi.com/forum/hi-fi/digital-room-correction and http://www.whathifi.com/forum/hi-fi/digital-room-correction-0.

Will examine for sure. Thanks!

 

[Chaloff]

Mu suspicion is that the problem is with your NAD 356 amp and not with your speakers , It has an over-bass presntation . You should check it out .The Audiolab amps for example are more laid back , Rotel more neutral act.

Well, Isac, that's what I am really thinking of. Amp. But first I dream to lend Yama 2000 for audition. It was the amp driving the CMs in the saloon when I bought them! Thanks!

 

[plastic penguin]

I've pretty much got the right combination of good and deep bass in a small/medium sized room. It's pretty much a hybrid of old skool deep, chunky bass and modern day agility and detail. But it comes at a price: Drives you ga ga trying to achieve the right balance. Once there, bliss.

Ideal speakers: PMC DB1i or perhaps Kef R300*.

*No personal experience of these speakers but from the dimensions they should give you a huge bang for your buck.

How did you achieve the ballance, PP? With gadgets in your signature or with DB1?

No gadgets, lots of auditioning. The Arcam I had was great at low volumes but when cranked up the bass could become lumpy. Not wishing to change the speakers, I went thru years of trial and error (my budget was only £600-£700) some sounded better at higher levels than the Arcam while others ruined the overall effect. It was only when the price dropped on the Leema that I found the ideal solution.

The DB1is are surprisingly good at locking on to lower frequencies, but compared to the RS6s, naturally, they didn't reach the depths I was used to. Music they were fine but films lacked something....

 

[davedotco]

I think the key to this issue is finding out what bass frequencies are needed for the results you want and what are not.

It is my experience that people rarely have any idea of what they are listening to in terms of frequencies, at both ends of the spectrum, though here we are talking about bass.

It is worth remembering that if an LP (vinyl) plays for 20 minutes a side, ie most comercial releases, the deep bass will be largely absent, filtered at 12db/octave with a -3db point of 70hz. But then bottom e on a bass guitar (about 41hz) is barely audible on most instruments and when equalising a bass drum for more weight or body frequencies around 150hz are usually where the lift is applied.

Most people complaining about a lack of bass in their systems are lacking mid bass punch, 100-300hz though they often think the problems are at lower frequencies, hence the misplaced desire for a subwoofer.

In smallish rooms the first thing to do is to remove the low bass, pretty much anything under 100hz can go, even if there are such frequencies on the recording you will barely hear them, the space is too small and any energy in this area will just go into moving the floor and walls and rattling the furniture.

 

[MakkaPakka]

Measure the frequency response of the room, you cant fix a problem if you dont know what it is. Also you have a room acoustics problem you cant fix it by ignoring room acoustics - the dealers are right, its physics the bass waves have to go somewhere.

 

[altruistic.lemon]

I think the key to this issue is finding out what bass frequencies are needed for the results you want and what are not.

It is my experience that people rarely have any idea of what they are listening to in terms of frequencies, at both ends of the spectrum, though here we are talking about bass.

It is worth remembering that if an LP (vinyl) plays for 20 minutes a side, ie most comercial releases, the deep bass will be largely absent, filtered at 12db/octave with a -3db point of 70hz. But then bottom e on a bass guitar (about 41hz) is barely audible on most instruments and when equalising a bass drum for more weight or body frequencies around 150hz are usually where the lift is applied.

Most people complaining about a lack of bass in their systems are lacking mid bass punch, 100-300hz though they often think the problems are at lower frequencies, hence the misplaced desire for a subwoofer.

In smallish rooms the first thing to do is to remove the low bass, pretty much anything under 100hz can go, even if there are such frequencies on the recording you will barely hear them, the space is too small and any energy in this area will just go into moving the floor and walls and rattling the furniture.

Not quite. What does RIAA do?

 

[lindsayt]

Totally agree Altruistic. Vinyl lps have plenty of bass content below 70hz after RIAA equalisation has been applied.

Also, if I put my biggest speakers (with an extended frequency response) in my 10m2 room I can hear hear lots of content from 30hz to 100hz on rock, pop, reggae, dance, organ music recordings, as well as when I try them with test tones.

I find that lots of furniture including bookcasses / CD / vinyl storage, a sofa, carpet helps to produce a cleaner bass in any room, including small ones.

 

[RobinKidderminster]

How does one know that we are hearing 30hz or 100hz??

 

[steve_1979]

How does one know that we are hearing 30hz or 100hz??

Here's a 20 Hz - 20 KHz sine wave sweep. Clicky

Listening to this my 10" sub makes a tiny bit of noise from 20 Hz but only starts having proper output from 32 Hz.

The 5.25" woofer in the Neutrons start making noise at about 45 Hz and have proper output by 55 Hz.

 

[DocG]

Here's a 20 Hz - 20 KHz sine wave sweep. Clicky

Thanks, Steve! Useful! :cheers:

Everything's on the interweb,you just need to find it (or be pointed to it by some one else).