Better mastered music could be on the way!

[CnoEvil]

Again, in a sense you're right. Although to accept your argument means accepting defeat in the 'loudness war', which I don't think anyone here (except manicm, bizarrely) wants or feels it is necessary.

I didn't mean it to come across like that, but I see how it might. I was focussing solely on Linn's own MP3s, which if you have ever heard, will know there is no audible signs of compression (as a stand alone track) (imo).

But in reality, this isn't a good point. I'd be surprised if more than a handful of your average mp3 consumer buys their mp3s from Linn. Linn's market for all its file formats is the 'audiophile' (sorry), who would expect IMO best possibly quality whatever the format. Given that it is possible with utterly minimal hassle they ought to be doing it IMO. That they are not has a clear financial benefit to them.

Bringing this to it's ultimate conclusion, means the typical Linn consumer will be getting the higher resolutions anyway (imo)

As for 'getting not being easy', I don't see why any supplier would refuse to supply just the one file and give permission for it to be downsampled, it would be less work and take up less space.

I have no personal insight into the logistics and politics of these things, so what any of us "don't see why" (or even "see why") could be irrelevent....only an insider can throw light on this.

I'm still being Devils Advocate here.

 

[BenLaw]

But in reality, this isn't a good point. I'd be surprised if more than a handful of your average mp3 consumer buys their mp3s from Linn. Linn's market for all its file formats is the 'audiophile' (sorry), who would expect IMO best possibly quality whatever the format. Given that it is possible with utterly minimal hassle they ought to be doing it IMO. That they are not has a clear financial benefit to them.

Bringing this to it's ultimate conclusion, means the typical Linn consumer will be getting the higher resolutions anyway (imo)

I'm not entirely sure I know what you mean. I think, despite you taking the Keanu Reeves role, we may be agreeing For me, the 'ultimate conclusion' is all file formats are sourced from the original studio master (which actually saves the money of a second mastering session or from any additional file manipulation). The different size formats can then be sold, with modest increases in price to reflect the larger storage costs, for those who can / feel they can hear a difference between the formats (or want them for purposes of prestige, or whatever).

 

[CnoEvil]

I'm not entirely sure I know what you mean. I think, despite you taking the Keanu Reeves role, we may be agreeing For me, the 'ultimate conclusion' is all file formats are sourced from the original studio master (which actually saves the money of a second mastering session or from any additional file manipulation). The different size formats can then be sold, with modest increases in price to reflect the larger storage costs, for those who can / feel they can hear a difference between the formats (or want them for purposes of prestige, or whatever).

I am not a member of the Linn Forum (one is more than enough) but I lurk there.....if it is representative of the typical Linn consumer, then I think it's fair to say that the vast majority of them download "above MP3 quality"....maybe even mostly 24 bit quality.

Steve's revelation has at least brought to light some interesting and relevent insights into Linn's decision making....and hopefully helped to banish misconceptions into what people think they're buying.

At least now, when buying a 24 bit recording, one is armed with more facts to aid the buying decision.

If you haven't heard Linn Radio's 3 stations, I would recommend you try them, in order to get a feel for the sound quality I'm talking about....they sound better than many of my less well mastered CDs.

I am firmly in the camp that wants properly mastered music first; and then, if we get good, readily available, decent value 24 bit (as the norm), it is icing on the cake.

 

[BenLaw]

Well, if not exactly agreeing then we're not a million miles apart

As I understand it pretty much all music today is mastered in (at least) 24 bit. All good. Also, none of that music has such dynamic range that it cannot be within a 16 bit file. And one of the things this thread has demonstrated is that downsampling with no loss of dynamic range is actually very, very easy. So IMO proper mastering is the first essential (we agree). Proper transfer (that retains the existing dynamic range) to lower bit file formats is the second essential. This is where it falls down at the moment. 24 bit files for the consumer is not only unnecessary but open to exploitation (even by legit and quality companies such as Linn).

 

[SteveR750]

I'm not entirely sure I know what you mean. I think, despite you taking the Keanu Reeves role, we may be agreeing For me, the 'ultimate conclusion' is all file formats are sourced from the original studio master (which actually saves the money of a second mastering session or from any additional file manipulation). The different size formats can then be sold, with modest increases in price to reflect the larger storage costs, for those who can / feel they can hear a difference between the formats (or want them for purposes of prestige, or whatever).

I am not a member of the Linn Forum (one is more than enough) but I lurk there.....if it is representative of the typical Linn consumer, then I think it's fair to say that the vast majority of them download "above MP3 quality"....maybe even mostly 24 bit quality.

Steve's revelation has at least brought to light some interesting and relevent insights into Linn's decision making....and hopefully helped to banish misconceptions into what people think they're buying.

At least now, when buying a 24 bit recording, one is armed with more facts to aid the buying decision.

If you haven't heard Linn Radio's 3 stations, I would recommend you try them, in order to get a feel for the sound quality I'm talking about....they sound better than many of my less well mastered CDs.

I am firmly in the camp that wants properly mastered music first; and then, if we get good, readily available, decent value 24 bit (as the norm), it is icing on the cake.

Which is the real issue. I'd pay a small premium for well mastered music, whatever badge you put on it so long as you were getting something beneficial in return for that premium.

I've personally no issue with record companies trying to squeeze cash out of the buyer, they'd be negligent if they didn't; it's not as if recorded music is a basic human necessity. What galls is the claim that X is better than Y, when in fact it isn't necessarily, and from Steve's analysis is manufactured to appear so. At best, it's a bit of a commercial shot in the foot.

 

[Native_bon]

Yes, I realised that!

Ah, ok, my mistake. I was under the impression you didn't.

I suspect that no amount of evidence would convince some people that 24 bit files weren't audibly better than 16/44.1.

yes of course 24bit does sound better than 16bits.. Al the threads i have seen u post, ur always against all off them I wonder why...?

 

[CnoEvil]

Well, if not exactly agreeing then we're not a million miles apart

I try, if possible to tread a line, that is neither with the Circling Vultures, nor with the Linn Can Do No Wrongies.....and what I admire about Steve's approach, is that he has done his best to do likewise.

 

[oldric_naubhoff]

Further update / clarification (Post. 64): http://forums.linn.co.uk/bb/showthread.php?tid=20029&page=7

That is a much better and, to my mind, fair response. I'm guessing then that if the original reason for this thread (an end to dynamic compression in sight) comes about, there will be no need for Linns Studio Master range?

It should also mean that Linns own productions are indistinguishable across the formats.

I would see it a much better reply if I red that they'll stop dynamically limiting their recordings for the purpose of Red Book release and enforce the same practice on other participating record companies.

 

[CnoEvil]

I would see it a much better reply if I red that they'll stop dynamically limiting their recordings for the purpose of Red Book release and enforce the same practice on other participating record companies.

Oldric, have you ever heard a Linn Records track/album at any resolution?

 

[oldric_naubhoff]

Playing devils advocate for a moment.....it could be argued that their MP3 is trying to be all things to all possible markets/applications. A lot (most?) of the people who use MP3 couldn't give a flying feck about the nth degree of sound quality (eg. all my children). People who are going to put it through a proper hifi are likely to go for Red Book or above.

the thing is CNO that if their Red Book file derived from the 24bit file we wouldn't have this conversation now. and there wouldn't be any apparent superiority of 24bit as by the way (which I assume would be a bummer for companies ripping off on 24bit content).

Giving the market what it wants is key to survival, and as has been pointed out by Linn Jim, that market (for MP3) is as wide as it is varied (even though we, as a tiny group of discerning audiophiles, think we have the right to the best sound possible). Don't lose sight of the fact that Linn's 320 Kbps is as good, if not better than what's out there atm.

drop that mp3 CNO.nobody here cares about mp3. the problem is that Red Book, which as everybody knows is a lossless format, gets dynamically compressed during studio mastering process and then we're sold this piece of junk. and only because this process is not used during creation of 24bit version you have to pay a dear premium. but not only that. if you don't have a 24bit compatible replay system you have no choice but to get satisfied with a second best option. and the second best option could be as good as the first one only if the studio material wasn't manipulated.

 

[chebby]

Oldric, have you ever heard a Linn Records track/album at any resolution?

I've bought a few in the past.

This one in FLAC.

This one on 180 gm vinyl (box set). No longer made as far as I know. (Languishing in a cupboard never to be used again.)

This one in CD quality.

 

[oldric_naubhoff]

Yes.

I'm still unclear on their position where they are the record label. Steve1979, were there differences between mp3 and 24 bit with Linn's own tracks? If there are, they are unnecessarily creating two separate masters also (one superior, one inferior).

the funny thing is that people on that forum actually believe that 24 bit master is something special! more work needs to be devoted into creating it. thus the price difference is fully justifiable.... I guess I can draw two conclusions on that:

1. ignorance is bliss (as always)

2. more money doesn't always mean more IQ

(sigh)

 

[CnoEvil]

Oldric, have you ever heard a Linn Records track/album at any resolution?

I've bought a few in the past.

This one in FLAC.

This one on 180 gm vinyl (box set). No longer made as far as I know. (Languishing in a cupboard never to be used again.)

This one in CD quality.

Do you have any issues re the sound quality on any of these?

Interestingly, I have the first two in 24 bit.

 

[chebby]

Oldric, have you ever heard a Linn Records track/album at any resolution?

I've bought a few in the past.

This one in FLAC.

This one on 180 gm vinyl (box set). No longer made as far as I know. (Languishing in a cupboard never to be used again.)

This one in CD quality.

Do you have any issues re the sound quality on any of these?

Interestingly, I have the first two in 24 bit.

I didn't really like the version of Messiah that Dunedin Consort did (and I no longer have a turntable). The quality was good but my favourite 'Messiah' will always, always be this one. (I don't know if it's the 'best' but i'm set in my ways.)

The Spem In Alium was good in quality but, again, I preferred different versions. (Tallis Scholars on Gimell.) So I eventually deleted the Linn one.

 

[CnoEvil]

Playing devils advocate for a moment.....it could be argued that their MP3 is trying to be all things to all possible markets/applications. A lot (most?) of the people who use MP3 couldn't give a flying feck about the nth degree of sound quality (eg. all my children). People who are going to put it through a proper hifi are likely to go for Red Book or above.

the thing is CNO that if their Red Book file derived from the 24bit file we wouldn't have this conversation now. and there wouldn't be any apparent superiority of 24bit as by the way (which I assume would be a bummer for companies ripping off on 24bit content).

Giving the market what it wants is key to survival, and as has been pointed out by Linn Jim, that market (for MP3) is as wide as it is varied (even though we, as a tiny group of discerning audiophiles, think we have the right to the best sound possible). Don't lose sight of the fact that Linn's 320 Kbps is as good, if not better than what's out there atm.

drop that mp3 CNO.nobody here cares about mp3. the problem is that Red Book, which as everybody knows is a lossless format, gets dynamically compressed during studio mastering process and then we're sold this piece of junk. and only because this process is not used during creation of 24bit version you have to pay a dear premium. but not only that. if you don't have a 24bit compatible replay system you have no choice but to get satisfied with a second best option. and the second best option could be as good as the first one only if the studio material wasn't manipulated.

Linn's Red Book recordings sound as good, if not better than what's out there....as the awards that they have earned are testament to. I think it is important not to lose sight of this.

Could they be a fraction better....probably

Would the majority of people even be able to audibly tell the difference, if this nth degree of improvement was applied......possibly.

I think it is all to easy to get caught up in this, and not give Linn any credit for the Standard they are at now. Getting hung up on a possible, probably negligible improvement (subjective, I know) is all too easy.

This of course is only my opinion.

 

[oldric_naubhoff]

I would see it a much better reply if I red that they'll stop dynamically limiting their recordings for the purpose of Red Book release and enforce the same practice on other participating record companies.

Oldric, have you ever heard a Linn Records track/album at any resolution?

in fairness my statement applies to every recording company. it's just Linn's now hold at the gunpoint.

to answer your question; no it seems I don't, unfortunately. maybe my antithetical preferences thread different ways than Linn's. however, I have a Naim record. I hate how percussion is spread there all over the soundstage. can't comment on DR though because every time I put it on I lost my temper and want to throw it out of the window. I loved the live concert of the band though.

 

[CnoEvil]

I didn't really like the version of Messiah that Dunedin Consort did (and I no longer have a turntable). The quality was good but my favourite 'Messiah' will always, always be this one. (I don't know if it's the 'best' but i'm set in my ways.)

I love the Messiah, so will check out this recommendation....thx.

 

[CnoEvil]

in fairness my statement applies to every recording company. it's just Linn's now hold at the gunpoint.

to answer your question; no it seems I don't, unfortunately. maybe my antithetical preferences thread different ways than Linn's. however, I have a Naim record. I hate how percussion is spread there all over the soundstage. can't comment on DR though because every time I put it on I lost my temper and want to throw it out of the window. I loved the live concert of the band though.

My argument makes more sense, in the context of Linn's own recordings.

As I have said already in this thread, if you can access Linn Radio, it will give you an idea what I'm talking about.

I think it is necessary to differentiate what other companies may try to do, and what Linn is doing, as it is them that the spotlight is on.

 

[oldric_naubhoff]

Getting hung up on a possible, probably negligible improvement (subjective, I know) is all too easy.

all I want is to get recordings not polluted by effects of the "loudness war" and not skewed to sound different/ worse to studio masters. (of course, in order to get what I want I could go for 24 bit option since they are studio masters and as we could see in case of Linn's 24 bit recordings - there's no dynamic compression applied, so they must sound as natural as it gets). but I don't think that technically 24 bit has anything more to offer than 16 bit. that's why I'd like those studio masters to be sold on CDs (as it should be happening since the beginning of the medium. in fact that's how it was on the beginning of CD. there was no "loudness war"). I hope I'm not asking for too much? and I think asking a premium for a decent version of a piece of music should at least be called a rip off.

 

[oldric_naubhoff]

in fairness my statement applies to every recording company. it's just Linn's now hold at the gunpoint.

to answer your question; no it seems I don't, unfortunately. maybe my antithetical preferences thread different ways than Linn's. however, I have a Naim record. I hate how percussion is spread there all over the soundstage. can't comment on DR though because every time I put it on I lost my temper and want to throw it out of the window. I loved the live concert of the band though.

My argument makes more sense, in the context of Linn's own recordings.

As I have said already in this thread, if you can access Linn Radio, it will give you an idea what I'm talking about.

I think it is necessary to differentiate what other companies may try to do, and what Linn is doing, as it is them that the spotlight is on.

oh man, don't you just love spell check. it should have been aesthetic.

 

[Anonymous]

Yes.

I'm still unclear on their position where they are the record label. Steve1979, were there differences between mp3 and 24 bit with Linn's own tracks? If there are, they are unnecessarily creating two separate masters also (one superior, one inferior).

the funny thing is that people on that forum actually believe that 24 bit master is something special! more work needs to be devoted into creating it. thus the price difference is fully justifiable.... I guess I can draw two conclusions on that:

1. ignorance is bliss (as always)

2. more money doesn't always mean more IQ

(sigh)

Ordic. They are hearing a better quality when down loading a Linn 24bit recording I know because I down load them also. Have some of these albums on CD 16bit on the streamer and there is a marked difference on playback. Why you keep posting this nonsense is beyond me Your right and all of us downloading 24bit from Linn is wrong

Edit

Why don’t you get along to a hifi shop for an audition of any make of streamer to pay the 24bit track and then the 16bit track. You all keep going on and on but do hee haw about discovering it for yourselves.

 

[Native_bon]

Like I say some people are just here to argue for the sake of it... Well the only thing I may have to say, all ears are not equal.. I use 16bit & 24bit files almost everyday in the studio. If you say that there is no difference between 16 & 24bit to people who work in the music studio enviroment there will just laugh at you.

 

[tyranniux42]

Anyone have any troll repellant?

 

[Craig M.]

Like I say some people are just here to argue for the sake of it... Well the only thing I may have to say, all ears are not equal.. I use 16bit & 24bit files almost everyday in the studio. If you say that there is no difference between 16 & 24bit to people who work in the music studio enviroment there will just laugh at you.

The first post in this thread contains a link to the Sound on Sound forum. I suggest you read what the people who work in a studio environment have to say there. Then I think you should tell them where they are going wrong. Will you please let me know when you've done this? I'll go buy some popcorn while I wait.

 

[char_lotte]

Only if you are tertially qualified.... Holding the tertial qualification is the only way to go.

I'm off to start a new thread "What are you analysing now...." You'll find it in the joyless section.