Another player would be the pioneer BDP-LX70A, With the exception of the LX91 the LX70A is probably the best built player that Pioneer ever produced,certainly better than the lx71 and streets ahead of the 51/52 etc.
strapped for cash said:
Looking outside of the WHF review for a minute. Youll probably find the upscaling is better on the 93 than the denon, and plays blurays better. Also, unlike the denon, it will play a multitude of formats (I believe the denon doesnt even like DVD recordables)
Sound through HDMI on my 95 (Same architecture as the 93) is a definite step up from my PS3 and my S370 and even my Pioneer LX50 dvd player. Id be surprised if it wasnt at least as good as the denon.
Ronald Archiebald said:
Ronald, do you keep records of firmware bugs in these players (and whether they get fixed if you upgrade to latest firmware, as I assume you do)? This is one thing that magazine reviews, which are necessarily point-in-time, are hopeless at assessing, and have become a particular bugbear of mine since I've have to return/reject two players (Pioneer LX-71, Denon 1611) with unliveable such bugs, and am currently using the Panny simply because it doesn't have any (that I've ever seen...)
It would be really helpful if you could share (or link, if you have a site) any such info for current players...
bigboss
Moderator
maxflinn said:
My findings are similar to max's for blu-ray 1080/24p video playback. I didn't find any difference between the PS3, Denon 2500BT and Panasonic BD60 when I compared them on my Kuro. I guess we are all different.
There's a forum member Will Harris (doesn't frequent this forum as much now) who was a diehard Oppo fan. He was a part of 5 member panel comparing a budget player, mid-range player & a high end player (PS3, Sony S350 & Denon 2500BT were part of the test) arranged by another forum. They couldn't tell a difference between blu-ray performance. And IIRC, these findings were similar during a Big Question feature in What Hi-Fi last year.
Of course, when it comes to DVD upscaling and audio performance, there will be a difference between players.
Don't want to veer the topic into a debate; just my two-penneth worth.
bigboss said:
My experience is nothing like as extensive, but I can state confidently that I can tell the difference between Blu-ray playback on the PS3 and S-370, while I think both are better performers than my brother's budget LG player.
I'm no expert on the finer points of Blu-ray player technology, but surely image processing differs from machine to machine? The idea that every Blu-ray player outputs an unadulterated package of digital information in an identical fashion surely can't be true? If this were the case, we should all buy a £50 no brand BDP (not that I wish to get on to the wider subject of branding).
the way i see it is the digital data on the blu-ray disc is fed through a codec and on to the tv, which does the processing.
i personally don't think that in terms of 1080p playback any bdp's differ.
i personally don't think that in terms of 1080p playback any bdp's differ.
maxflinn said:
Then the £50 (multi zone) no brand player on ebay that can bitstream audio is the perfect player for even the most hardened AV enthusiast (who will of course own a decent receiver). That's assuming it doesn't break in a fortnight, but I've heard such stories about hardware from major consumer electronics manufacturers anyway.
The way that I see it, my S-370 has different picture modes, which undoubtedly alter the way the image appears on screen. The same is true of my brother's LG BDP. Neither has a "pure video" function (unless the standard option does this), meaning there is some picture processing occuring within the player itself. The TV functions independently of alterations to contrast, colour balance and sharpness that occur when selecting different viewing presets on a BDP.
bigboss
Moderator
strapped for cash said:
This is the beauty of blu-ray technology. The digital nature of the content means that any blu-ray player capable of outputting 1080p24 should be identical to any other when using the HDMI output. If you check more reviews of different players online, some have mentioned it. For example, google "oppo bdp-95eu review" & read the reviews. One of them has mentioned the same thing.
As I said before, different people have different experiences. If you can notice a difference, so be it.
well yes, imo it will playback blu-rays perfectly well, just like any bdp..strapped for cash said:
bigboss
Moderator
strapped for cash said:
Yes, the standard setting is the unaltered setting. As aliEnRIK always mentions (and for once, I agree with him), he prefers blu-ray images without any artificial processing. Some of the high end blu-ray players have features such as "HD reality enhancer" which process the images a bit. Some like the results better than the "standard" setting, & some don't. It's similar to some viewers preferring "dynamic setting" on their TV & some hating it.
bigboss said:
It's a bold claim that the standard picture setting on all BDPs produce an unadulterated (and therefore identical) image. I'm not stating this is incorrect, but it's dangerous to assume this is the case (you may have evidence to this effect, in which case I'm happy to be proven wrong).
Again, the standard settings on the S-370 and my brother's budget LG BDP do not look identical (as I donated my Pana G10 to my brother, I've viewed images produced by each player, using the same Blu-ray discs, on exactly the same TV). In fact, the images produced are markedly different, in terms of contrast, colour balance, sharpness, detail, motion, and so on...
bigboss
Moderator
strapped for cash said:
As I've said before, different people have different experiences, & a couple of blind tests, including one organised by What Hi-Fi have suggested what I have personally experienced.
I don't want to get into this "providing evidence" business. You have noticed a difference in your experience, so that's fine. I'm not disputing that at all.
bigboss said:
Fair enough. I wasn't trying to be provocative. However, this "providing evidence" business is the cornerstone of informed debate (ducks for cover).
bigboss
Moderator
strapped for cash said:
Back on the topic, this site sells blu-ray players that are multiregion for both DVD and blu-ray: http://www.mrmdvd.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=159
Obviously, modded blu-ray players come at a premium, and, unless you have a large collection of region A discs, you're better off buying a non-modded player (it's often cheaper to replace region A discs with region B ones).
What about the Denon 1611UD?: http://www.sightandsounduk.com/Denon-DBP-1611UD.html
bigboss
Moderator
BenLaw
Well-known member
bigboss said:
Yes, I read the same review. Absent processing, a blu ray player's job (in relation to blu rays) is to read digital data and transmit it onward digitally - this should be the same whatever the player. The huge difference in players will be upscaling of DVDs, where the player (or receiver, or TV) adds information. The Oppo is supposed to be good at this, according to the same review. That is where you do not want the cheapo player mentioned by another poster. The other area of difference is processing - I was interested to read AlienRik on another thread saying that this can be 'hardwired' in to a player - I would be interested to know how (and why!).
Don't feel enraged, bb! And thanks for the link. I hadn't come across that site before. They seem to offer a wide range of modded players, so very helpful...
bigboss
Moderator
Another player on the shortlist should be the Yamaha BDS-1067: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Yamaha-BDS-1067-3D-Blu-Ray-DVD-Player---New_W0QQitemZ280669556480QQcmdZViewItem?rvr_id=232195561582&clk_rvr_id=232203703071&imp_rvr_id=232203703071&clk_rvr_id=232203703071&cguid=447d123212f0a0a9f4934ed3fe9a3e19
I haven't read many reviews though, but knowing Yamaha's abilities in the audio department, this should definitely be on your shortlist to audition.
I haven't read many reviews though, but knowing Yamaha's abilities in the audio department, this should definitely be on your shortlist to audition.
That fact that image processing can be hardwired into a player is my point exactly; and I wouldn't disagree that neutrality is a desirable objective.
The completely unadulterated reproduction of source material is still a myth in the hi-fi and AV world, however: it's never been achieved and the idea that it's possible is a marketing construct. All electronics use different components, inevitably leading to variations in the results achieved. This is not only the case with different product ranges, but also with ostensibly identical models from the same range.
The completely unadulterated reproduction of source material is still a myth in the hi-fi and AV world, however: it's never been achieved and the idea that it's possible is a marketing construct. All electronics use different components, inevitably leading to variations in the results achieved. This is not only the case with different product ranges, but also with ostensibly identical models from the same range.
bigboss said:
As I own a Yamaha 1065 receiver, that's perhaps a very good call. I'll seek out some reviews.
not wishing to argue with you strapped, but in terms of pure 1080p blu-ray playback, surely there are a certain few electrical parts designed specially to extract the digital data and send it to the tv via hdmi?strapped for cash said:
what you see on the tv is what's on the disc, how could a variation in parts change what's on that disc?
Simply because those parts sit between the disc and television in the image processing chain, not to mention the fact that the TV uses its own picture processing technology. It can never be the case that "what you see on the TV is what's on the disc." Even you would accept that the Pana V20 you owned introduced image processing anomalies (as does any other TV).
All audio visual technologies are comprised of chains that transport stored information (whether analogue or digital). No two chains are completely identical, even if they are made up of exactly the same products. There are simply too may variables at work, including the environment of reproduction, for this to be possible.
I've read widely on the myth of perfect fidelity from both a cultural and technological standpoint, so hopefully these claims are better informed than simple conjecture.
Anyway, I'm not having a go, Max, which I hope you appreciate...
All audio visual technologies are comprised of chains that transport stored information (whether analogue or digital). No two chains are completely identical, even if they are made up of exactly the same products. There are simply too may variables at work, including the environment of reproduction, for this to be possible.
I've read widely on the myth of perfect fidelity from both a cultural and technological standpoint, so hopefully these claims are better informed than simple conjecture.
Anyway, I'm not having a go, Max, which I hope you appreciate...
Generally speaking in hifi there are 2 main camps. Believers and sceptics. Now im not saying your either one or the other, simply that generally speaking most people gravitate towards one or the other
For example
I see genuine differences with BLU RAY playback between my oppo 95, S370 and PS3 on my not very high end Sony 46W5500
Ive seen reports like posted above where people (A group of people) couldnt tell differences on much bigger screens
Why is this? I could say everyone in the test/s have bad eyesight - but as that seems to upset many (Because we all know everyone has perfect vision
). So lets talk about believers and sceptics
A believer (like me) will have -
A mains conditioner (I actually have 2 mains conditioners and a balanced mains transformer). A decent rack (Atacama and rubber feet inbetween the rack and the equipment). A decent HDMI cable (Van Den Hul). Decent mains cables (Like Russ Andrews, mine are copies). Fully calibrated equipment (Both camps should have this regardless)
A sceptic will have -
Dirty mains. Cheapest cables you can buy (or came free with the equipment). Equipment on anything (On each other in a lot of cases).
Lets just assume for a moment that the believers are correct. That to see genuine differences and have the eyes capable of seeing genuine differences that you NEED a clean mains supply, a well made HDMI cable and something half decent to sit the equipment on.
Perhaps, just perhaps, THAT is why people cant tell a difference (Including the online tests, and especially online tests done by sceptics)
Someone also mentioned that 1080P 24Hz pics should be the same off of any bluray player. But ive read that the sony S5000 goes through picture filters regardless of settings. Im no believer in filters, the signal should be as clean as possible to my mind, as any change might make some pics look better, but it will 'always' be at detriment to some others (And not as the director intended either way).
My Oppo 95, PS3 and S370 dont use any filters that im aware of, and I can see genuine differences watching blurays. Nothing major - not that old chestnut 'night and day', but subtle differences ive noticed over time.
For example
I see genuine differences with BLU RAY playback between my oppo 95, S370 and PS3 on my not very high end Sony 46W5500
Ive seen reports like posted above where people (A group of people) couldnt tell differences on much bigger screens
Why is this? I could say everyone in the test/s have bad eyesight - but as that seems to upset many (Because we all know everyone has perfect vision
A believer (like me) will have -
A mains conditioner (I actually have 2 mains conditioners and a balanced mains transformer). A decent rack (Atacama and rubber feet inbetween the rack and the equipment). A decent HDMI cable (Van Den Hul). Decent mains cables (Like Russ Andrews, mine are copies). Fully calibrated equipment (Both camps should have this regardless)
A sceptic will have -
Dirty mains. Cheapest cables you can buy (or came free with the equipment). Equipment on anything (On each other in a lot of cases).
Lets just assume for a moment that the believers are correct. That to see genuine differences and have the eyes capable of seeing genuine differences that you NEED a clean mains supply, a well made HDMI cable and something half decent to sit the equipment on.
Perhaps, just perhaps, THAT is why people cant tell a difference (Including the online tests, and especially online tests done by sceptics)
Someone also mentioned that 1080P 24Hz pics should be the same off of any bluray player. But ive read that the sony S5000 goes through picture filters regardless of settings. Im no believer in filters, the signal should be as clean as possible to my mind, as any change might make some pics look better, but it will 'always' be at detriment to some others (And not as the director intended either way).
My Oppo 95, PS3 and S370 dont use any filters that im aware of, and I can see genuine differences watching blurays. Nothing major - not that old chestnut 'night and day', but subtle differences ive noticed over time.
Irrespective of whether the Oppo, PS3 and S-370 use a particular filter, something is happening at some point in then chain between soure and reproduction to produce these changes. In other words, I'm not disagreeing with you at all, I'm simply suggesting your argument is compatible with the points I made above.
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