Balanced XLR interconnects

[rmatthew]

I'm the proud new owner of the Abrahamsen v2.0UP amp and DAC II. I had to buy interconnects and as both have fully balanced circuits it made sense to connect them via XLR than RCA.

A little searching on the internet showed that a 50cm pair ranged from about £10 to £5,250, with most band names £150+. On the forums here a number of people thought that Neutrik plugs and Van Damme cable were as good as you need for such a short length. In the end I chose the Van Damme STARQUAD Balanced Cable with Neutrik Gold XLR to XLR Microphone Lead from designacable and they cost £25 including delivery. They arrived this morning and look very well made, so far so good.

The result, definitely much better than the RCA connections. The RCA is software sounding so clearing loosing some detail. I should add that my RCA cable cost about a fiver and is about 3m long. Not a fair comparison I know but it does show that the cable makes a difference. Unfortunately I don't have a good set of RCA's to compare but if someone wants to send me one then I will give it a listen the post back.

Anyway, just thought I would share my experience, if it help someone then it was worth it.

 

[TrevC]

I'm the proud new owner of the Abrahamsen v2.0UP amp and DAC II. I had to buy interconnects and as both have fully balanced circuits it made sense to connect them via XLR than RCA.

A little searching on the internet showed that a 50cm pair ranged from about £10 to £5,250, with most band names £150+. On the forums here a number of people thought that Neutrik plugs and Van Damme cable were as good as you need for such a short length. In the end I chose the Van Damme STARQUAD Balanced Cable with Neutrik Gold XLR to XLR Microphone Lead from designacable and they cost £25 including delivery. They arrived this morning and look very well made, so far so good.

The result, definitely much better than the RCA connections. The RCA is software sounding so clearing loosing some detail. I should add that my RCA cable cost about a fiver and is about 3m long. Not a fair comparison I know but it does show that the cable makes a difference. Unfortunately I don't have a good set of RCA's to compare but if someone wants to send me one then I will give it a listen the post back.

Anyway, just thought I would share my experience, if it help someone then it was worth it.

The XLR connections are usually louder, which most people interpret as better. Balanced connections are about noise cancellation, not sound quality.

 

[lpv]

I have same VanDamme cables with Neutric connectors between preamp and speakers.. robust and good value connection.. I think you don't need anything above this

 

[busb]

My experience going from 0.5m RCAs to XLRs was a rather subtle improvement after compensating for level change. As has been stated, XLRs come into their own over long runs in studios due to induced noise cancellation.

 

[lpv]

My experience going from 0.5m RCAs to XLRs was a rather subtle improvement after compensating for level change. As has been stated, XLRs come into their own over long runs in studios due to induced noise cancellation.

... or in home hifi setup where other connections are not available and xlr is the only one.

 

[Al ears]

My experience going from 0.5m RCAs to XLRs was a rather subtle improvement after compensating for level change. As has been stated, XLRs come into their own over long runs in studios due to induced noise cancellation.

... or in home hifi setup where other connections are not available and xlr is the only one.

Which is still quite rare these days, certainly on most kit owned by forumees I would imagine. However if I have them I tend to use them although at this present moment in time none of my kit uses them.

 

[Andrewjvt]

I have same VanDamme cables with Neutric connectors between preamp and speakers.. robust and good value connection.. I think you don't need anything above this

What pre amp are you using?

 

[DaveyBoy1980]

I have same VanDamme cables with Neutric connectors between preamp and speakers.. robust and good value connection.. I think you don't need anything above this

+1

I was using some decent Atlas RCAs between the Mdac and a pair of 8200MBs. I tried some £13 Van Damme balanced XLRs and noticed that the music was louder but there was also quite a noticable increase in bass output. I'm not 100% sure the sound was any better but it definitely seemed like nothing was held back and more of the track was coming through.

 

[lpv]

I have same VanDamme cables with Neutric connectors between preamp and speakers.. robust and good value connection.. I think you don't need anything above this

What pre amp are you using?

ATC CA2

 

[davedotco]

I'm the proud new owner of the Abrahamsen v2.0UP amp and DAC II. I had to buy interconnects and as both have fully balanced circuits it made sense to connect them via XLR than RCA.

A little searching on the internet showed that a 50cm pair ranged from about £10 to £5,250, with most band names £150+. On the forums here a number of people thought that Neutrik plugs and Van Damme cable were as good as you need for such a short length. In the end I chose the Van Damme STARQUAD Balanced Cable with Neutrik Gold XLR to XLR Microphone Lead from designacable and they cost £25 including delivery. They arrived this morning and look very well made, so far so good.

The result, definitely much better than the RCA connections. The RCA is software sounding so clearing loosing some detail. I should add that my RCA cable cost about a fiver and is about 3m long. Not a fair comparison I know but it does show that the cable makes a difference. Unfortunately I don't have a good set of RCA's to compare but if someone wants to send me one then I will give it a listen the post back.

Anyway, just thought I would share my experience, if it help someone then it was worth it.

Firstly, can you confirm that the Abrahamsens are fully balanced designs? I can see nothing about that on their websight or anywhere else. Fully balanced components are quite rare and usually far more expensive, this would make them incredible value for money.

Most modern balanced connections use differential circuits, in the 'old' days transformers were used which brought other benefits such as isolation. Each 'leg' of the balanced output will have, from a dac say, 2 volts output, so a balanced line will have 2 + 2 volts, the differential amplifier will then pass on 4 volts to the next stage of the circuit. (Assuming a non balanced design)

Using an unbalanced connection normally uses only one 'leg' of the differential circuit, the unused leg simply being tied to ground. Unless the designer deliberately changes the levels, the unbalanced connection will supply half the voltage of a balanced connection.

In other words, the balanced connection has a voltage 6db higher than the unbalanced, which equates to 3dB extra power from the amplifier. A small change in level that can easily be mistaken (on music at least) as a change in quality.

That said I like the robustness of XLR connectors, their 'fail safe' ground first connections and would normally use them when they are an option. If the components are proper, fully balanced designs, I would not consider anything else.

 

[TrevC]

I'm the proud new owner of the Abrahamsen v2.0UP amp and DAC II. I had to buy interconnects and as both have fully balanced circuits it made sense to connect them via XLR than RCA.

A little searching on the internet showed that a 50cm pair ranged from about £10 to £5,250, with most band names £150+. On the forums here a number of people thought that Neutrik plugs and Van Damme cable were as good as you need for such a short length. In the end I chose the Van Damme STARQUAD Balanced Cable with Neutrik Gold XLR to XLR Microphone Lead from designacable and they cost £25 including delivery. They arrived this morning and look very well made, so far so good.

The result, definitely much better than the RCA connections. The RCA is software sounding so clearing loosing some detail. I should add that my RCA cable cost about a fiver and is about 3m long. Not a fair comparison I know but it does show that the cable makes a difference. Unfortunately I don't have a good set of RCA's to compare but if someone wants to send me one then I will give it a listen the post back.

Anyway, just thought I would share my experience, if it help someone then it was worth it.

Firstly, can you confirm that the Abrahamsens are fully balanced designs? I can see nothing about that on their websight or anywhere else. Fully balanced components are quite rare and usually far more expensive, this would make them incredible value for money.

Most modern balanced connections use differential circuits, in the 'old' days transformers were used which brought other benefits such as isolation. Each 'leg' of the balanced output will have, from a dac say, 2 volts output, so a balanced line will have 2 + 2 volts, the differential amplifier will then pass on 4 volts to the next stage of the circuit. (Assuming a non balanced design)

Using an unbalanced connection normally uses only one 'leg' of the differential circuit, the unused leg simply being tied to ground. Unless the designer deliberately changes the levels, the unbalanced connection will supply half the voltage of a balanced connection.

In other words, the balanced connection has a voltage 6db higher than the unbalanced, which equates to 3dB extra power from the amplifier. A small change in level that can easily be mistaken (on music at least) as a change in quality.

That said I like the robustness of XLR connectors, their 'fail safe' ground first connections and would normally use them when they are an option. If the components are proper, fully balanced designs, I would not consider anything else.

Isn't strange that the only place where a balanced connection would be an advantage is the only place where it is never implemented. On a turntable.

 

[rmatthew]

From the web-site product description

DAC II: "......To achieve maximum cancelation of distortion and low frequency noise, the amplifier stage is fully balanced from input to output....."

I don't see anything for the amp so that may or may not be fully balanced. Either way, at the same volume, using the balanced input gives more detail.

 

[davedotco]

TrevC.

Not true, but not commonplace either. We routinely fitted balanced cables to SME arms for use with fully balanced phono stages such as the ARC Phono 2, with low output MC cartridges it was the way to go.

Could complicate the earthing arrangement though, virtually every setup was different so not ideal if you were a bit of a 'box swapper'.

rmathiew

Almost all modern dac chipsets give a differential output, though in most cases they are simply used to generate an unbalanced output.

The amplifer will most likely give a higher power output from a balanced input at the same volume setting on the amplifier. This is often percieved as an improvement rather than a change of level, though to be absolutely sure you would need to measure and adjust the voltage supplied to the speakers.

Not really worth the hassle...*i-m_so_happy*

 

[TrevC]

From the web-site product description

DAC II: "......To achieve maximum cancelation of distortion and low frequency noise, the amplifier stage is fully balanced from input to output....."

I don't see anything for the amp so that may or may not be fully balanced. Either way, at the same volume, using the balanced input gives more detail.

It doesnt, but never mind. :O)

 

[andyjm]

Using a balanced connection, in of itself, should make no difference to the sound quality - though in an electrically noisy environment, or over long cable runs balanced will pick up less noise.

As has been pointed out, the balanced signal may or may not go through different 'gubbins' in the amp or the source, depending on the circuit topology. This may or may not have an effect.

If you are of the 'less is more' camp, then using balanced connections with equipment that is unbalanced internally will put more steps in the signal chain, and is probably not a good idea. It the equipment is fully balanced from start to finish, then it seems a shame not to take advantage of it.

If the amp and dac designer have done their job properly, there should be no difference in a domestic environment between balanced and unbalanced. I have a krell processor / krell amp that is fully balanced and I use balanced connections - though in my case it is because I have the amp located some distance from the processor and the cables run close to mains and lighting circuits and I wanted to avoid noise. In a previous setup, I did compare balanced and unbalanced and couldn't tell any difference.

 

[Blacksabbath25]

I am using XLR cable between my abrahamsen 2up and abrahamsen 1up CD player the only difference I noticed between using atles £120 set and some XLR cables that Colin gets made up for him for £45 is the XLR cables are louder then the atles cables that's it no sound improvements the quality of the sound is the same as the atles cables . I could not tell you if the abrahamsens are proper fully balanced or not maybe Colin could tell us if the abrahamsen stuff is fully balanced ?

 

[Al ears]

I am using XLR cable between my abrahamsen 2up and abrahamsen 1up CD player the only difference I noticed between using atles £120 set and some XLR cables that Colin gets made up for him for £45 is the XLR cables are louder then the atles cables that's it no sound improvements the quality of the sound is the same as the atles cables . I could not tell you if the abrahamsens are proper fully balanced or not maybe Colin could tell us if the abrahamsen stuff is fully balanced ?

It would be interesting to know. At the price I very much doubt that the amp is. You would think they would advertise this if it were, as they did for the DAC.

 

[Electro]

I am using XLR cable between my abrahamsen 2up and abrahamsen 1up CD player the only difference I noticed between using atles £120 set and some XLR cables that Colin gets made up for him for £45 is the XLR cables are louder then the atles cables that's it no sound improvements the quality of the sound is the same as the atles cables . I could not tell you if the abrahamsens are proper fully balanced or not maybe Colin could tell us if the abrahamsen stuff is fully balanced ?

I am not 100% sure if Abrahamsen amps are fully balanced from input to output but I strongly suspect that they are, it is one of the Per Abrahamsen philosophies that all equipment should be fully balanced and dc coupled .

I know that all Electrocompaniet equipment is fully balanced including their lovely phono stage pre amp .

http://www.electrocompaniet.no/products/classic/preamp/ecp2.html

 

[Blacksabbath25]

I am using XLR cable between my abrahamsen 2up and abrahamsen 1up CD player the only difference I noticed between using atles £120 set and some XLR cables that Colin gets made up for him for £45 is the XLR cables are louder then the atles cables that's it no sound improvements the quality of the sound is the same as the atles cables . I could not tell you if the abrahamsens are proper fully balanced or not maybe Colin could tell us if the abrahamsen stuff is fully balanced ?

I am not 100% sure if Abrahamsen amps are fully balanced from input to output but I strongly suspect that they are, it is one of the Per Abrahamsen philosophies that all equipment should be fully balanced and dc coupled .

I know that all Electrocompaniet equipment is fully balanced including their lovely phono stage pre amp .

http://www.electrocompaniet.no/products/classic/preamp/ecp2.html

is there anyway of finding out if the abrahamsen are fully balanced ?

 

[Electro]

I am using XLR cable between my abrahamsen 2up and abrahamsen 1up CD player the only difference I noticed between using atles £120 set and some XLR cables that Colin gets made up for him for £45 is the XLR cables are louder then the atles cables that's it no sound improvements the quality of the sound is the same as the atles cables . I could not tell you if the abrahamsens are proper fully balanced or not maybe Colin could tell us if the abrahamsen stuff is fully balanced ?

I am not 100% sure if Abrahamsen amps are fully balanced from input to output but I strongly suspect that they are, it is one of the Per Abrahamsen philosophies that all equipment should be fully balanced and dc coupled .

I know that all Electrocompaniet equipment is fully balanced including their lovely phono stage pre amp .

http://www.electrocompaniet.no/products/classic/preamp/ecp2.html

is there anyway of finding out if the abrahamsen are fully balanced ?

I hope that Colin can tell us but if not you could email Abrahamsen and ask .

 

[rmatthew]

I had an email this morning from Thomas Abrahamsen and he confirmed that the v2.0UP is fully balanced.

 

[davedotco]

I had an email this morning from Thomas Abrahamsen and he confirmed that the v2.0UP is fully balanced.

That is astonishing for the price...!

 

[Al ears]

I had an email this morning from Thomas Abrahamsen and he confirmed that the v2.0UP is fully balanced.

That is astonishing for the price...!

Indeed it is. All the more reason to invest in one if the other reports about them are correct.

 

[Blacksabbath25]

thats great news !

 

[davedotco]

I had an email this morning from Thomas Abrahamsen and he confirmed that the v2.0UP is fully balanced.

That is astonishing for the price...!

Indeed it is. All the more reason to invest in one if the other reports about them are correct.

When I said astonishing perhaps I should have said deeply sceptical. Partly due to the cost, partly due to the lack of publicity and partly because of the fact that their is only one balanced input.

Surely the whole point of a balanced amplifier would be to use balanced sources...*unknw*

I still wonder if something has been lost in the translation here.