AV Amps / Receiver complexity coming at cost of audio quality?

[admin_exported]

Regular readers will know that I have recently decided to upgrade my Denon AVR4306 and at this stage its looking like the Marantz pre/power combo may be getting the nod.

The purpose for this post however is to discuss whether everyone else feels - as I do - that the current crop of AV amps and receivers are not comparable in sound quality to similar sized / priced amps of yesteryear. I personally am of the opinion that the Denon AVC-3020 I owned over 10 years ago had a far superior sound to the 4306 I own now.

I think the current amps etc are massively over-complex and its coming at the expense of good sound quality. Just looking at the spec sheet for the 4360 - does anyone really need a tape loop these days? VDS - surely if you had one, you would use it instead of the DVD, right? multi-zone?; I've never used the in-built tuner, and if I look at the 4308 - the 4306's successor - now we have WiFi. As for video conversion - surely the dvd player or tv is better at this?

You can't seriously tell me that adding tuners and WiFi plus all the other connections doesn't take away from the unit's sound quality.

The old 3020 I had was simple - a sensible set of inputs, no tuner, no wifi (of course it wasn't around back then), and it sounded GREAT.

Rather than cramming in ever-increasing and IMO unnecessary complexity, isn't it time the manufacturers started offering more of a real 'range' in their lineups so that people like me - and a few others I imagine can buy an amp that has quality sound, less the nonsense I don't need, ie tape loops, tuner (if I want radio I can buy a decent tuner, right?), WiFi, multi-zone etc etc.

Sure, they could offer receivers with all of these functions for those who want them but what about similarly priced / sized amps without all the gimmicks and a true focus on sound quality? Back to basics boys…

 

[Anonymous]

Completely agree with you, mate. I would rather have an A/V Receiver with fewer 'bells and whistles' (most of which I, and I am sure many other customers, will never utilise) but with superior audio quality.

The problem is that, in this day and age, a lot of consumers seem to be more interested in having A/V Receivers with plenty of badges on the front fascia, with all the 'bells and whistles', not even thinking that they do not even use many.or most of those features.

By the way, I am confident that you will be happy if you purchase the Marantz AV8003/MM8003 pair.

I am still rather patiently awaiting the NAD M15HD surround sound processor to finally become on sale - in Australia, which from what I have heard, would appear to be approximately March/April 2009.

By the way, off-topic, but after having my Cyrus CD 8 SE for 2 1/2 weeks now, and having run-in and chalked up over 100 hours' worth, this CD Player is really showing its tremendous talent. I have even got used to the slow slot-loader. This is an ABSOLUTELY INCREDIBLE CD Player, and I reckon it is worth every considerable cent I paid for it.

 

[Anonymous]

Hi Guys

Another Aussie but from the Gold Coast ! Been reading both of your posts recently and enjoy the banter. I have been wondering the same thoughts for quite a while about AV receivers (althougth we do use FM radio alot during Weekends).

I had thought about going the same route as you dantan NAD pre & power but got put off by no HD sound (I know it amy come later). So I bought an Onkyo 875 with the intention of adding the NAD 7 channel amp later if unhappy.

Speakers are all Krix except mains which are Aslan Minstrals (look up Aslan Acoustics to see his 80k R1 speakers).

So far, better everytime I add something. FYI Lounge is about 8m x 12m.

Cheers

 

[Anonymous]

Ah, it's us 3 again !

But yeah, totally agree. And I say that through experience. This Marantz is fine, I guess, it does what it does, well, but there's just so much of it I have no need for, will never use, don't see the point of, and to your point, I'm more than sure the associated electronics sitting in the box compromise the overall sound....hence, as I've discussed before, I'm doing exactly as you suggest above, stripping to basics, and keeping a very simple line....I'll be off-loading this lot, and all I want is the Naim AV2 and associated amps. It does just a few things, audio only, but does them well. It's ALL about the audio.

I worried, for about a day, about the limited feature set, but then the penny dropped. Besides, to my ears, it was on another planet, which is all I care about now.

I really know I'm never going to use the radio, the 2nd amplified zone, 4/5ths of the sound modes (which are just ridiculous), and in fact the majority of the input/output jacks....there really is a good argument for a much more stripped down range of models in these AVR, or, have 1/2 of these feature sets optional or available on a 'trade' version, for those that need it. I would gladly pay the same amount of money, and be happy just knowing that the minimal interior was quality - in fact I'll be paying over twice as much for the AV2, for well over 1/3 the features, but feel happier about doing so....

One of the things that freaks me, when I consider what the 8002 cost me (well below the UK RRP), and then take off a dealer mark up, a distributor mark up, the manufacturing costs and a profit for Marantz, there doesn't seem to be much left - and packed into this silver box are 7 amps, video chip, power circuits, equaliser electronics, so on and so on.....There's just too much crammed in there, I think, for the price point....and I think as the market gets more and more competitive, and the reviews up the ante, the feature lists are driven longer and longer...It just snow balls. And it gets easy as a consumer to get sucked in too, as I found.

So, for me, as the great Mies Van Der Rohe said, 'less is more'....

A comparison you may appreciate Damien working in graphics: I know art directors and retouchers back in London, who are still more than happy working in PS5 and producing amazing work, as opposed to say CS2 or 3, as it does what it does very well, has all the features they will ever use, doesn't have the 'bloat' of the later versions and actually runs about the same speed or faster than the bigger, heavier programs.....same with layout - whilst I enjoy using ID3 daily, it's way more buggy than ID1 or 2 or even say Quark4 of years ago, and again, has a feature set that I'll never have need for...

p.s. Got that screen yet Damien ?!

 

[Anonymous]

G'day Chewbacker, It is good to see us Aussies here. Good choice on your A/V Receiver, mate. My pre-amp - for now - is an Integra DTR7.8. My brother-in-law has an Onkyo TX-SR875 as pre-amp; he has an old Sunfire 5-channel power amplifier.

Which Krix loudspeakers have you got?

NAD has confirmed that it will be releasing a NAD M15HD (HD version of their outgoing NAD M15 surround sound processor). RRP in the US is expected to be about $4,500.00.

I think you will find that if you add a power amplifier, that you will find a substantial lift in performance (although the Onkyo TX-SR875's onboard amplification is good). My NAD M25 power amplifier brought a really good improvement in performance, and remains one of the biggest improvements I felt with my entire system.

Dan.

 

[Anonymous]

I'll apologise for being the Pom now !

 

[Anonymous]

No apologies necessary, SC. This is a UK-based web-site, plus, I would love to be in England, and follow my beloved, but struggling, Newcastle United.

 

[Anonymous]

Cheers !...I'm not in the UK thankfully, probably closer to you..!

I've got a good photographer friend back in London who is part of the Toon army - I'm enjoying emailing and toying with him just recently !ÿ

 

[Anonymous]

SC:I'll apologise for being the Pom now !

Best not - I'm a Pom too - albeit living in warmer climes these days ; ) Still waiting for the screen - arriving this week apparently - can you believe they air freight them in. Thats gotta add to the margin somewhat.

@ Chewbacker- welcome to the crew - always good to collaborate as it can be tricky to find stuff here unless you can talk to others this side of the equator.

On the graphics front - I couldnt agree more - I dont use CS at all as I handle the web side of life (more on that shortly) - but my Wife is the image ninja and uses CS3 - we've found it a shocker - by far the buggiest software I have ever seen from Adobe - not good - not good at all.

Glad to hear everyone is in the same train of thought regards the amps / receivers and perhaps the manufacturers should listen up - leave the bells & whistles either to their lower end consumer models or to the consumer brigade like Sony or LG. I for one only pay good money for a Denon badge etc for a significant improvement in sound quality and dont feel that (albeit it is a very good amp) I got it with the 4306. Perhaps I'm being too harsh, perhaps too fussy but there you go.

@ Dantan - I cant wait to find somewhere I can check out the Marantz combo but if I havent bought it by the time the new Nad arrives, I'll likely check that out too. The Chord Silver Plus HDMI's I got from hificables.co.uk are great by the way - obviously no judgement on picture as I'm waiting for the screen but the sound alone is a big improvement over the Panasonic hdmi I replaced with them. Given HDMI is all digital I'm pleasantly surprised at the difference.

The Cyrus CD sounds awesome - I may be tempted to upgrade next year perhaps.

Just to continue with our bragging - we've told everyone else, we may as well share with you guys - our business is Propeller and we just won the 2008 McFarlane Prize - for Excellence in Australian Web Design. Article here:- http://www.propellerglobal.com/news/News/114/propeller-win-the-2008-mcfarlane-prize-for-excellence-in-australian-web-design

 

[Anonymous]

Well done mate ! I'll have a good trawl through your site later on, but looks an interesting company.....If you ever need a dedicated book designer..!

I'm always on the look out for a good web designer too, often get asked for dynamic sites for photographers I mix and work with..

As for CS, think I'll be skipping CS4 too, what's all that about !? (Actually, I probably will give it a whirl, as I'll be able to get it on the street here for about $5 !, but I very much doubt I'll slap down the dosh for the original as I normally do)

Dantan - Have you tried the Cyrus AV processor ? I just wondered with you being a fan of the CDP whether it would suit you also...takes the same approach as Naim's AV2 I guess...

 

[Anonymous]

Thanks guys for the welcome have been on and of the site for a while now.

We have a great NAD man here on the Gold Coast - Southport Hi Fi. He seems to be able to get everything reasonably quick have made some enquiries.

Dan - I was going down the route of the whole Krix system (Neo's,Epicenter) but after buying KDX surrounds and the Epicenter I actually won the Aslan Minstrals - all 8k worth. The sound is so stunning I couldn't go back to 3k Neo's for mains. They actually mould magnificently into the HT system. After the wife first heard them she won't listen to music unless it is Stereo with no surround. I was so suprised she could hear the obvious difference (to me anyway). So there goes the surround sound concerts.

Damien - I have one of the first DMR 300's from Pana thought about the BR 500 but wanted to wait a bit longer for the new Pioneers as they have Audiophile sound parts apparently, plus loading speed plus wanted 2.0 play.

I am always cautious about first and second gen products.......but then how many times do the techs tinker and dilute a good poduct into mush. Seen Yamaha & NAD do it regularly.

SC - hi

Cheers im on my first beer, Chewie

 

[Anonymous]

Damien Buckley:ÿ

can you believe they air freight them in. Thats gotta add to the margin somewhat.

It also makes you think what the margin is in the first place...!ÿ

 

[Anonymous]

SC:
Damien Buckley:ÿ

can you believe they air freight them in. Thats gotta add to the margin somewhat.

It also makes you think what the margin is in the first place...!ÿ

Indeed it does!

 

[Anonymous]

SC:
Well done mate ! I'll have a good trawl through your site later on, but looks an interesting company.....If you ever need a dedicated book designer..!

I'm always on the look out for a good web designer too, often get asked for dynamic sites for photographers I mix and work with..

As for CS, think I'll be skipping CS4 too, what's all that about !? (Actually, I probably will give it a whirl, as I'll be able to get it on the street here for about $5 !, but I very much doubt I'll slap down the dosh for the original as I normally do)

Dantan - Have you tried the Cyrus AV processor ? I just wondered with you being a fan of the CDP whether it would suit you also...takes the same approach as Naim's AV2 I guess...

Obviously getting waayyy off topic here but for sure, refer away - or subcontract - we did this site about 2 years ago for a local photographer:- http://www.ronsmith.com.au/#id=3&num=1

 

[Anonymous]

Hey Damien, I can't believe you're upgrading again. I can remember you posting a while back just after you had bought the Denon and you loved it then, but I completely understand you. After you've got used to the change and finished playing with the setup you start to really listen to the sound. Then you realise that aside from allowing you to tailor the setup to your room, most of the features go unused.

Good luck with the upgrade. I must say, in your position I'd be looking at a second hand move. And as one of the previous posts suggested, to something really lovely like Naim.

Good luck and keep us posted on what you go for and how it sounds!

 

[Anonymous]

Will Harris:Hey Damien, I can't believe you're upgrading again. I can remember you posting a while back just after you had bought the Denon and you loved it then, but I completely understand you. After you've got used to the change and finished playing with the setup you start to really listen to the sound. Then you realise that aside from allowing you to tailor the setup to your room, most of the features go unused.

Good luck with the upgrade. I must say, in your position I'd be looking at a second hand move. And as one of the previous posts suggested, to something really lovely like Naim.

Good luck and keep us posted on what you go for and how it sounds!
Hey Will, yeah I'm on the upgrade path.

Dont get me wrong, I still love the 4306, its just not been as good with stereo as I expected (no complaints on movie performance at all). A house move to a better arrangement and all good cables / components throughout, you start to realise that the thing which is letting you down must be the amp whereas previously you tend to think, oh it must be the cd player - so you get a good one, then speakers, so you get good speakers, then cables. Still not great, hmmmm I guess HiFi is kinda like a drug too - you're always looking for a bigger high.

The thing is, the 4306 was my first foray back into HiFi after about a 10 year drought - I sold all my gear (including the 3020 I reference here) when I first came out to Australia and up to buying the 4306, hadn't had anything which qualified as HiFi so it had been a big gap and I went the common route - straight replacement from what I'd had previously.

This upgrade move actually was prompted with the new tv / bluray player as the 4306 is hdmi1.2 and doesn't decode HD audio so I figured if I'm going to spend money replacing it I may as well get something much better - its not likely to be until late in the year or more likely early next year. I'll definitely take your suggestion on board too and will for sure let everyone know how it goes.

 

[Anonymous]

Mate, which Bluray player are you using? It's not listed in your signature.

The funny thing I find, is that my system sounds amazing with movies, but quite often the sound isn't clear enough or punchy enough in stereo for music, as though there is an other level remaining to be found. I think the demands of stereo sound are much greater for the front pair, than that required in movies.

Good luck. Hope you find what you're looking for. As for me, I know exactly what I want to buy next errrrr after my new sub arrives. The Denon DVD3800BD. Yeah baby!

Pity I'm rather poor at present. It'll have to be next year! Late next year LOL.

 

[Anonymous]

Will Harris:Mate, which Bluray player are you using? It's not listed in your signature.

The funny thing I find, is that my system sounds amazing with movies, but quite often the sound isn't clear enough or punchy enough in stereo for music, as though there is an other level remaining to be found. I think the demands of stereo sound are much greater for the front pair, than that required in movies.

Good luck. Hope you find what you're looking for. As for me, I know exactly what I want to buy next errrrr after my new sub arrives. The Denon DVD3800BD. Yeah baby!.
Its the Panasonic DMR-BW500 - you probably didnt recognise it as its not available in the UK yet - funnily enough, Australia was the second country (behind Japan) to get it and I got one of the first ; ) Its a combined bluray recorder and twin HD tuner with 500GB hard drive - awesome piece of kit. I didnt go out of my way to get a BR player - I had to get a tuner as the integrated one in my current tv was playing up and I also wanted to shelve the VCR - the bluray was kind of a bonus and it leaves me free to get a more upmarket one when they finally finalise the spec etc.

I thought you'd be going for the 2500BT? Isnt all the circuitry wasted on the 3800 with your amp? And what sub are you looking at?

You've pretty much nailed my feelings on it regards the movies / music performance and given you have a much more upmarket Denon and feel the same, makes me feel better about looking elsewhere. I was originally just looking at the 4308 or ponying up big $$$'s for the A1HD but they are so over-priced here in Aus its not funny - I can buy the Marantz pre/power combo or the Pioneer LX90, for less can you believe.

 

[Anonymous]

Well my amp was No.2 in the pecking order in 2001 when I bought it, hence I only have 8 channel inputs for multichannel sources like a Bluray player. Hence I need all the gubbins inside the 3800 and can't use a 2500. My folks have an Onkyo 905 so can and will probably get a 2500 for them.

The sub I'm buying is an SVS PB13 Ultra. Yum yum!

Very very big. Soooooo looking forward to it!

 

[Anonymous]

Ah I didnt realise that amp had been around for that long - not getting the upgrade bug? ; ) Just a thought - considering the price premium of the 3800 over the 2500, you might be better off throwing some of that money at a newer amp? I'm not familiar with the SVS but I'm sure it will be good - make sure to tell us all about it. The Velo CHT-12R kicks ass but I think is getting on these days - lots of competition around.

 

[nads]

Good read and people wonder why i have a separate Stereo set up..

 

[Anonymous]

Hey SC, no, I have not tried the Cyrus AV Processor, and won't try it out, because I need/want an HDMI1.3 Processor with all the HD decoding built-in. If Cyrus brings out an HD AV Processor, though...

As soon as I purchased my NAD M25 7-channel power amplifier, I have been awaiting patiently for the M15HD. Then, I suppose if I am not bankrupt yet, I shall be looking to purchasing a high-end Blu-Ray Disc Player.

At the moment, this is what I have got (I cannot be bothered mentioning cables):

Display: Sony Bravia KDL52W4000

Pre-amp: Integra DTR7.8

Power amp: NAD M25

Blu-Ray Disc Player: Panasonic DMP-BD30

CD Player: Cyrus CD 8 SE

Front loudspeakers: Krix Neuphonix

Centre channel loudspeaker: Krix Epicentrix

Surround loudspeakers: Krix Phoenix

Sub-woofer: Krix Seismix 5

 

[Anonymous]

Hey Damien,

I knew you would be extremely happy with The Chord Company's Silver Plus HDMI1.3 cables. I swear by The Chord Company's cables. They are most definitely not cheap, but this hobby is not exactly cheap, is it? I would say that these cables will bring years of satisfaction to all us who own them.

I would certainly recommend checking out the NAD gear, as well, because NAD represents fantastic value-for-money. If you have a chance to demo (or better still, borrow one for a few days to bring home) a NAD M25 7-channel power amplifier, that might be a good step, as well.

 

[Anonymous]

Hey Chewbacker,

Wow - you won a pair of $8,000.00 loudspeakers?! That's great, mate.

I am aware that the Neuphonix's are not the best loudspeakers for stereo duties. I have auditioned umpteen loudspeakers, but to get significantly better than the Neuphonix's, I would have to spend upwards of $6,000.00, therefore, the Neuphonix's represent sensational value-for-money.

Are your Minstrals active loudspeakers?

The KDX series has been around for donkey's years, and are still quite popular and still sound great all these years down the track. The Epicentrix is simply a stunning centre channel loudspeaker. I have not heard a sub-$2,000.00 centre channel loudspeaker as capable as the Epicentrix.

I also prefer listening to stereo/direct when listening to music. I don't even have my sub-woofer in operation, when listening to music. For a system which consists of a capable main pair of loudspeakers which has decent bass extension, a sub-woofer is probably not required or ideal. My opionion, anyway.

 

[Anonymous]

dantan:
Hey Damien,

I knew you would be extremely happy with The Chord Company's Silver Plus HDMI1.3 cables. I swear by The Chord Company's cables. They are most definitely not cheap, but this hobby is not exactly cheap, is it? I would say that these cables will bring years of satisfaction to all us who own them.

I would certainly recommend checking out the NAD gear, as well, because NAD represents fantastic value-for-money. If you have a chance to demo (or better still, borrow one for a few days to bring home) a NAD M25 7-channel power amplifier, that might be a good step, as well.

I know someone (may have been you) mentioned it here but have you tried the Clearaudio Copperline power cables? I'm thinking of ordering some in for my gear - just waiting for my new cabinet so I can see what lengths I need.

I'd also be interested to compare my Van Den Hul speaker and interconnects against Chord - wonder of there is much difference.