Are music and the hifi equipment two separate things?

[manicm]

I personally like large variety of music from pumping dance, 70's, 80's and 90's pop, rock and indie through to jazz. I enjoy my music whether it is on the hifi, in the car or on my iPod.

The best experience is on the hifi, I really enjoy hearing instruments sound clear and a sound that has the power to be felt not just heard. For this I need hifi in my life. But like I say I can still enjoy music on other stuff, I'm not an audiophile snob. My main source now is the iPod all be it on a quality Arcam dock going through my amp, but still even though it isn't 'quite' as good as CD the convenience of have non stop playlists for hours on end so I can just hear the music without inteription is so worth it.

If your system sounds good enough to you then it should just be the music you listen to not the gear. But the gear is an essential as far as I'm concerned.

Another thing to consider is that most commercial recordings are far from perfect anyway, so in some cases music can sound worse on better equipment.

Which Arcam dock are you using? (Their drDock is their 3rd one). If not the drDock, then most importantly which iPod are you using?

 

[steve_1979]

Two separate things for me.

Music is an art form.

HiFi reproduction is a science.

Music is mostly enjoyed/experienced at the most intense and intimate level for me personally, by actually playing an instrument or singing - or one can read the score and hear the music playing in ones head, or one can attend live concerts. The composers art can be appreciated in a car, via iPhone + headphones, or a bedroom clock radio.

An high quality, neutral and transparent, high resolution HiFi designed with rigour to known scientific and psycho-acoustic principles at the highest levels, allows a more believable, or realistic illusion of a live performance than what a car stereo, iPhone + headphones, or a bedroom clock radio can manage, and the experience can be shared with others - which is a social advantage.

The art form, is the music, the musical instruments played and the artists who play them; the HiFi is defined by scientific principles, is not an art form or a musical instrument - merely a 'reproducer' of sound to an as accurate a degree as the laws of science and physics allows.

However, for some audiophiles, the music becomes a medium by which to listen to and assess the capabilities of the system as regards it's reproducing abilities, and hence the two become both conjoined and confused.

These audiophiles become very obsessed with the sound of kit, as against listening to the music played upon it, and venture into all sorts of casting of rune stones and pseudo science - another aspect of the hobby interesting and valuable enough in itself to those who indulge in it, pehaps, - but ultimately one that has little to do with music as an art form, and instead tends to create mere differences in the sound of the kit, as against actually advancing the reproduction per se.

I'd also argue the life is all about balance, and like all hobbies taken to excessive degrees, one can end up missing out on the bigger picture of life - HiFi after all is an adjunct to ones hopefully varied life and other interests.

JMac

Good post. I agree completely.

..and welcome to the WHF forum Jon.

 

[steve_1979]

Music definitely comes first.

But I agree with CnoEvil, the better the sound, the more pleasure.

That's the funny thing for me. Having better clarity does indeed make listening more enjoyable and if I had the money to spare I too would be happy to drop a few grand on some top of the range active speakers.

However, paradoxically while agree that better clarity does = more enjoyment I also find that when listening to my tinny little £12 portable speaker I can still enjoy the music just as much as I can on a good quality hifi system.

(I know that last sentence doesn't really make sense. :? )

 

[Neuphonix]

I often find that I enjoy listening to music best in my car on the way to work in the morning after my first cup of coffee.

Perhaps the most important component of any system regardless of size & cost is a responsive endorphine gland? :?

 

[fr0g]

Music definitely comes first.

But I agree with CnoEvil, the better the sound, the more pleasure.

That's the funny thing for me. Having better clarity does indeed make listening more enjoyable and if I had the money to spare I too would be happy to drop a few grand on some top of the range active speakers.

However, paradoxically while agree that better clarity does = more enjoyment I also find that when listening to my tinny little £12 portable speaker I can still enjoy the music just as much as I can on a good quality hifi system.

(I know that last sentence doesn't really make sense. :? )

Makes total sense Steve. Most of my listening is done in the kitchen if I add up the hours. 2 Gale mini monitors and a Denon mini system. Speakers placed where there is room in no way beneficial to the sound. And yes, I still enjoy it very much.

Although "just as much"...not for me. Occaisionally I can go and sit by the PC, grab a couple of tinnies, read the forums, edit some photos, do some development or whatever and have the ADMs sing. Or have the house to myself and sit in my living room and have my Dalis sing. And it's certainly "more enjoyable" simply because I can be in the zone with better reproduction and all the notes. Not just those to around 80Hz!

As for faffing around searching for minute improvements, that's behind me. And in fact, thinking on it, my search for "full range" speakers will include passives too, especially knowing that a decent AV amp will provide perfectly good amplification.

 

[MeanandGreen]

I personally like large variety of music from pumping dance, 70's, 80's and 90's pop, rock and indie through to jazz. I enjoy my music whether it is on the hifi, in the car or on my iPod.

The best experience is on the hifi, I really enjoy hearing instruments sound clear and a sound that has the power to be felt not just heard. For this I need hifi in my life. But like I say I can still enjoy music on other stuff, I'm not an audiophile snob. My main source now is the iPod all be it on a quality Arcam dock going through my amp, but still even though it isn't 'quite' as good as CD the convenience of have non stop playlists for hours on end so I can just hear the music without inteription is so worth it.

If your system sounds good enough to you then it should just be the music you listen to not the gear. But the gear is an essential as far as I'm concerned.

Another thing to consider is that most commercial recordings are far from perfect anyway, so in some cases music can sound worse on better equipment.

Which Arcam dock are you using? (Their drDock is their 3rd one). If not the drDock, then most importantly which iPod are you using?

Arcam ir Dock, 4th gen iPod touch, CD's ripped using apple lossless or 256kbs downloads. It does the job for me. The biggest difference between that and my Sony CDP-XB930 CD player is the 1.2 volts difference in the output stages of the two. I need to turn the volume dial higher for the iPod but sound quality wise the differences are minimal.

 

[the record spot]

If they had been a 3-way it would be a given. And there is a no return policy at the moment, and I can't trial them so easily (here in Sweden) Given the money I'd go for some Meridan ESP7200, but they are a little rich for my blood. I am keeping my options open and looking at the 2nd hand market too. Some old ATC's would probably fit the bill

You should perhaps consider flying over for a dem. I heard them recently, you would not believe how good they are.

Or they could set up with a dealer to save the customer from having to go significantly out of his way to hear the product. Call me naive and all...!

 

[gbhsi1]

One can't be produced without the other at home - and my singing won't cut it either

 

[manicm]

I personally like large variety of music from pumping dance, 70's, 80's and 90's pop, rock and indie through to jazz. I enjoy my music whether it is on the hifi, in the car or on my iPod.

The best experience is on the hifi, I really enjoy hearing instruments sound clear and a sound that has the power to be felt not just heard. For this I need hifi in my life. But like I say I can still enjoy music on other stuff, I'm not an audiophile snob. My main source now is the iPod all be it on a quality Arcam dock going through my amp, but still even though it isn't 'quite' as good as CD the convenience of have non stop playlists for hours on end so I can just hear the music without inteription is so worth it.

If your system sounds good enough to you then it should just be the music you listen to not the gear. But the gear is an essential as far as I'm concerned.

Another thing to consider is that most commercial recordings are far from perfect anyway, so in some cases music can sound worse on better equipment.

Which Arcam dock are you using? (Their drDock is their 3rd one). If not the drDock, then most importantly which iPod are you using?

Arcam ir Dock, 4th gen iPod touch, CD's ripped using apple lossless or 256kbs downloads. It does the job for me. The biggest difference between that and my Sony CDP-XB930 CD player is the 1.2 volts difference in the output stages of the two. I need to turn the volume dial higher for the iPod but sound quality wise the differences are minimal.

Try ripping one album to AIFF (iTunes does it), I think you'll be surprised as to how close the dock can come to a CD player. Somehow Apple lossless never did it for me, in analogue mode anyway.

 

[Craig M.]

Or they could set up with a dealer to save the customer from having to go significantly out of his way to hear the product. Call me naive and all...!

Given what AJ says would happen to the price if the traditional retail model was used, I'd rather go out of my way and pocket the (large) difference.

Although, taking into account what I think of the 9.1Ts, and AJ's honesty, I'd have strongly considered buying blind anyway.

 

[the record spot]

That's true across the board for all businesses that adopt a third party to distribute their products though. The model doesn't work for me (I live in East Lothian) so God knows why on earth someone's going to hop on a plane, fly to London, get a connecting train then get out to Nailsworth....

 

[Craig M.]

Fr0g is originally from England, maybe he visits family from time to time, maybe he doesn't, I don't know and don't care. It was just a comment. Avi are obviously happy with their model, whether it works for you or not, as sales went up when they adopted it.

 

[JMacMan]

Fr0g is originally from England, maybe he visits family from time to time, maybe he doesn't, I don't know and don't care. It was just a comment. Avi are obviously happy with their model, whether it works for you or not, as sales went up when they adopted it.

Reflecting upon my own retail sales experience in IT/computers/HiFi/TV/Home Theatre, I would think there would be a reluctance on the part of some dealers to sell what is in effect an 'all in one' HiFi solution re active speakers; in a sense it's a closed sale with little opportunity to profit further from 'audiophool' 'add ons' re accessory 'better' cables etc.

Hence passives simply make more sense from a retail, bricks and mortar business model POV than actives if you want repeat and ongoing business generated by add on power supplies, cables, equipment racks etc. And of course the HiFi mags benefit as well, as they can discuss 'upgrades' ad infinitum....

Getting rid of the retail dealer chain, and going on line direct was undoubtedly the right move for AVI; besides, even though he is not an qualified electrical engineer, AJ is a superb business entreprenuer/salesman and has the necessary chutzpah to make a brilliant sucess of it.

JMac

 

[JMacMan]

That's true across the board for all businesses that adopt a third party to distribute their products though. The model doesn't work for me (I live in East Lothian) so God knows why on earth someone's going to hop on a plane, fly to London, get a connecting train then get out to Nailsworth....

Very true.

It's exceptionally difficult to find anything in my neck of the woods originating from the UK or US as regards HiFi that isn't handled by a third party importer/distributor - all taking their financial cut along with the retailer - US products benefit price wise with our free trade agreement, but UK sourced products are not generally good relative value here because of the distribution chain and ongoing markups involved. And should you deign to sell on for any reason, the UK Ebay market will set the relative global price, so you loose significantly on any second hand sale into the (poor) bargain.

Possibly, it's why the majors such as Pioneer, Yamaha, Sony etc all do so well here - they all have full factory representation and backup, and sell through both specialist HiFi stores as well as major electrical chains/departements stores etc, and represent excellent value for money as far as electronics are concerned.

Whilst they're not offering an online mail order service like AVI, my recent speaker purchase very pleasantly surprised me in that the company not only has full factory Headquarters/representation, service and backup here, but additonally owns all the retail stores - no franchises, and no third party importers/distributors - which undoubtedly lowers the end price to the happy owner.

Certainly different global regions and markets, as well as different distribution chains and business models of selling can make some products much better value than others depending upon where you live, in my experience.

JMac

 

[deafinoneear]

Are music and Hifi equipment two separate things ?

Music, be it live performance or studio recording is a medium of conveying emotion through artistic interpretation, performance and technique,

Whether it is good or not is down to the skill of the performer and the attitude and perception of its audience.

Hifi equipment is a purely objective method available to us of reproducing the above, given the restraints of finance, lifestyle restrictions and personal preference of asthetics.

More importantly the reproduction of music is purely objective. That is, it's based on what the individual has previously heard and experienced, be it symphony hall , stadium or rock played in a sweaty bar room through a battered SM58 mic.

For me, recording techniques have gone backwards since the introduction of "Pro tools" in the mid eighties and I find myself happier with the "lo fi" recordings of bands like White Stripes and the Foo fighters. Also being of an age that remembers the dance hall emergence of Motown and Northern Soul. I am resticted by the memory that much of it was played in Mono at the time and listening now in stereo just isn't how I first experienced it !

Normal healthy hearing falls within the 20Hz to 20000Hz range. As we get older the range decreases.

Reality dictates we listen to what we like, Where we can. On equipment we like and can afford.

 

[fr0g]

Fr0g is originally from England, maybe he visits family from time to time, maybe he doesn't, I don't know and don't care. It was just a comment. Avi are obviously happy with their model, whether it works for you or not, as sales went up when they adopted it.

I have no problem with the sales format, For me the main problem is the lack of ability to return something. That isn't an issue with the 9s as they are returnable under the distance selling rules. But the 40s are sold as made to order which cancels that out.

Also, trying at home for me is fairly important. I would be 99.9 % certain that there would be no need to return, but when we are talking a few grand I wouldn't want to leave myself open for disappointment.

 

[Alec]

How is one more made to order than the other? I can't imagine he had a vast warehouse full of the 9s in all finishes...

Personally I'm amazed he allows dealers who use kit without an Apple logo on it, considering his attitude to reviews that don't make use of such kit.

Wow, I wonder if I'll find the right side of my bed again. Not sure I can be bothered to look for it...

 

[fr0g]

How is one more made to order than the other? I can't imagine he had a vast warehouse full of the 9s in all finishes...

Personally I'm amazed he allows dealers who use kit without an Apple logo on it, considering his attitude to reviews that don't make use of such kit.

Wow, I wonder if I'll find the right side of my bed again. Not sure I can be bothered to look for it...

I imagine he has lots of 9's sitting around. The numbers will be huge compared to a set of £3000+ speakers.

As for the fruity gods, well while they make very nice kit, it amazes me the huge bias toward them in that in fact they are pretty much the antithesis of Avi. ie HUGE profit margins and HUGE company using ditinctly dogy legal means to try to squash competitors, as compared to a homegrown business building great kit at extremely competitive prices. It's a bit like the local home-made jam shop sticking up for Tesco.

In fact, I'm just waiting for the Apple active speaker range to appear

Seriously though, if the ADM40s were subject to the same distance selling rules I'd probably order a pair.