Are music and the hifi equipment two separate things?

[steve_1979]

This is a quote from another thread:

...after reading through a load of threads on here recently that people are more and more concerned with every little detail and minutia of music reproduction through their systems that the music seems forgotten somehow!

You make a valid and very interesting point there Jim. For me the interest in hifi equipment and my love of actually listening to the music are two completely separate things.

Speaking as an amateur as far as understanding the equiptment is concerned I find it fascinating learning about how things like speakers, amplifiers, digital audio and even cables ( ) work. But on the other hand when I'm actually listening to the music I rarely think about any of those things, I just enjoy the music for what it is. In fact part of the reason why I bought an 'all in one' hifi system is because it allows me to just sit back and enjoy the music without feeling the need to keep tweeking the system.

When I'm not at home I often listen to music on a little £12 portable speaker plugged into an MP3 player. I find that even though the sound quality isn't anywhere near as good as the proper hifi system I still enjoy listening to music just as much.

It's similar to other things like cars. I enjoy reading about cars because I like to understand things like engines, differentials and how different materials work. I also enjoy driving but when I'm sitting behind the wheel I rarely consider the mechanical side of what's happening, I just enjoy the experience.

What are your opinions on this?

What do you enjoy the most? The music, the equipment or both?

Are they two separate things for you or part of the same thing?

 

[CnoEvil]

Music = Emotion

Equipment = Hardware

Better Equipment = Improved Musical Performance = More Emotion

Simples.

 

[MeanandGreen]

I personally like large variety of music from pumping dance, 70's, 80's and 90's pop, rock and indie through to jazz. I enjoy my music whether it is on the hifi, in the car or on my iPod.

The best experience is on the hifi, I really enjoy hearing instruments sound clear and a sound that has the power to be felt not just heard. For this I need hifi in my life. But like I say I can still enjoy music on other stuff, I'm not an audiophile snob. My main source now is the iPod all be it on a quality Arcam dock going through my amp, but still even though it isn't 'quite' as good as CD the convenience of have non stop playlists for hours on end so I can just hear the music without inteription is so worth it.

If your system sounds good enough to you then it should just be the music you listen to not the gear. But the gear is an essential as far as I'm concerned.

Another thing to consider is that most commercial recordings are far from perfect anyway, so in some cases music can sound worse on better equipment.

 

[MeanandGreen]

I personally like large variety of music from pumping dance, 70's, 80's and 90's pop, rock and indie through to jazz. I enjoy my music whether it is on the hifi, in the car or on my iPod.

The best experience is on the hifi, I really enjoy hearing instruments sound clear and a sound that has the power to be felt not just heard. For this I need hifi in my life. But like I say I can still enjoy music on other stuff, I'm not an audiophile snob. My main source now is the iPod all be it on a quality Arcam dock going through my amp, but still even though it isn't 'quite' as good as CD the convenience of have non stop playlists for hours on end so I can just hear the music without inteription is so worth it.

If your system sounds good enough to you then it should just be the music you listen to not the gear. But the gear is an essential as far as I'm concerned.

Another thing to consider is that most commercial recordings are far from perfect anyway, so in some cases music can sound worse on better equipment.

 

[BigH]

Yes of course they are different things, music is music, hifi is just one way of playing it, it should sound better but not always.

 

[Alec]

I just died a little inside.

 

[MajorFubar]

Definitely different. I knew a guy years ago who was a massive classic and opera fan; moved to tears he was, on occasions, listening to the right piece of music. But he never felt the need to listen to it on anything better than his old Roberts AM radio and a mono autochanger record player.

That said, I couldn't be a HiFi fan if I didn't love music to start with. I don't own HiFi as a status symbol. I'm sure there are some people who do, but I'm not one of them.

 

[Electro]

Music = Emotion

Equipment = Hardware

Better Equipment = Improved Musical Performance = More Emotion

Simples.

Spot on

For me the equipment is a means to an end , I do love my equipment but only because it gives me so much lifelike and beautiful music

 

[Covenanter]

I won't quote all of Jim's post but the accuracy thing is interesting. I have to agree that total accuracy isn't possible but you do want IMO to get to the point where you can believe the illusion. If instruments don't sound anything like what you would hear in a concert hall then the illusion is destroyed and you start to listen to what's wrong rather than what's right.

This is where diminishing returns comes into the equation too. Once you have a decent system making a material improvement to it becomes expensive and you have to ask yourself if it is worth the expenditure. Of course the industry wants us to spend the money but we don't all have unlimited budgets and some of us have many interests. So this year I bought a hifi and didn't spend anything on cameras. Next year the heating needs replacing.

Chris

 

[AEJim]

I think one of the most important aspects of a good Hi-Fi set-up and indeed the enjoyment gained from listening to it is getting the balance right. I've not heard a Hi-Fi at any price that can re-create, for example, a drum kit accurately - the power and dynamics just can't match it. A small pair of speakers with 5" drivers on a 30 watt amp stand no chance. People often refer to accuracy but they're kidding themselves, in most cases you're not getting true accuracy from Hi-Fi regardless of cost. Many very high end systems aren't enjoyable to listen to because they're engineered for accuracy but the result sounds bright and mechanical to most if they're being honest and not all "Emporer's new clothes" about it. They probably measure great in anechoic chambers but that isn't the full story.

What is probably more important is getting a balance you feel is right in your room, with your preferred music at the levels you listen to - for most people they want some warmth in the sound which is not technically accurate but enhances and makes up for some of that lack of scale and power the system can't realistically recreate. I can say "most people" from experience - I looked into our best ever selling models recently, no surprise that they were award winners but interestingly the 109's and Aegis Evo 3's, the two most popular floorstanders both had quite a coloured sound - but it was a powerful, warm colouration that obviously was very popular with listeners. The least popular speakers were the ones that actually measured very flat in-room, they tended to sound more clinical.

Another aspect is distortion - and spikes in the output immediately put people off, dips in output however are easily ignored, your brain just tends to smooth them over.

There are many factors really but I'd say most good systems that are enjoyable to listen to and by default make music more enjoyable are those that have a "nice" balance, low distortion, no frequencies that jump right out at you (which can be caused by many things, not least of which the room - this is relevant for all frequencies, not just the treble). When it's right it's a lot easier to listen to the music and do the old cliché of playing track after track, going through your old music collection etc. When people don't enjoy their Hi-Fi this way and spend all their time listening to it rather than music it's usually because of imbalances - again I speak from experience, I've owned a lot of Hi-Fi, done all the tweaking and nowadays in listening tests spend weeks listening to the same track over and over - when it's right I tend to forget to listen for things to improve and enjoy the music.

This is why I say people get too hung up on tiny details - you'll rarely fix a bad set-up with a change of mains cable, higher bitrate file etc. It's usually something more fundamentally wrong in the first place. It may even be a great system in one location but then you move house or just redecorate a room and it can alter something which changes that balance. When it's right you really do stop listening to the gear and wondering what to improve. But this is of course just my opinion, I speak with a company name attached because I have to, it's who I work for and it's in the rules - everything I say is my personal opinion and what I believe is true from experience.

 

[toyota man]

Love the Music enjoy the Equipment Music first I love my music on my ipod when out In ,my vdud when working, and on the hifi when posting on hear etc I am listening to my new fav0urite band the Hives :rockout: :dance:

 

[BigH]

This year I bought the camera, next year maybe upgrade the 18 year old hifi. I think the brain is very clever at translating sounds, just like the brain and eye see things, for instance take a photo of say tower bridge at mid day in June and you maybe surprised how white the stonework looks, does not look right because our brain has converted the image the eye records to something different, I think it is similar with music, yes it is very hard to repoduce sound in a living room but for most people a reasonable hifi is close enough. Ever heard people say it sounds much better live?

HiFi should be about enjoying the music, the problem with talking and thinking about hifi is yo tend to start listening for things rather than the music.

 

[the record spot]

The music was always first, the gear second, though I'm interested in picking up the of bit from time to time, that's hobby stuff. The gear is an enabler but no more and I enjoy music as much through a basic radio as I do my own setup.

 

[Thompsonuxb]

Considering both need each other, both anolog and electric and both require 'better equ' for better sound i.e the drum, its skin, the composition of the body - an accoustic guitar - a piano I could go on. All music needs a medium of some form and the quality makes all the difference in the world regards how we enjoy it.

There are multiple ways we listen to music when alone, i.e not really listen to it, but its on, stop listen then focus on something else or sit down and listen get involved allow it to wash over you and soak it up and thats when the the equ becomes relavent/important.

That bloke who breaks down into tears when he hears a fav tune on a radio I imagine would collaspse in a heap and start rolling backward and forwards, beating himself on the head if he hears said tune through a well sorted system.

Seriously I can't see why the two need to be seperated or a conclusion drawn on how we are supposed to enjoy music. I mean sometimes I enjoy bass, other times I'll focus on vocals or production, arrangements. There is no hard rule - why try to make it so?

 

[DavieCee]

I spent a lot of time contemplating my equipment, and even longer setting it up.

Now it is set up to it's optimum, 95% of the time I listen purely to the emotion of the music and if possible forget how it gets to my ears. 5% of the time I actually sit down and think about it in HiFi terms but that is mostly about vocals, musicianship, recording and mastering skills. Maybe 1% thinking about potential upgrades

 

[Singslinger]

Music = Emotion

Equipment = Hardware

Better Equipment = Improved Musical Performance = More Emotion

Simples.

Yes agree. I enjoy listening to music on a mini component system or car hifi but if I can afford better reproduction, then why not? :cheers:

 

[lindsayt]

I think one of the most important aspects of a good Hi-Fi set-up and indeed the enjoyment gained from listening to it is getting the balance right. I've not heard a Hi-Fi at any price that can re-create, for example, a drum kit accurately - the power and dynamics just can't match it. A small pair of speakers with 5" drivers on a 30 watt amp stand no chance...

True. But some systems get a lot closer to recreating the illusion of a drum kit than others. So that many systems sound more like a hi-fi system than a drum kit, whilst others sound vaguely like a drum kit and not particularly like a hi-fi system.

For some people their hi-fi system is a piece of furniture that are happy to look at and share their living space with that also plays their music to an acceptable standard. For me my hi-fi system is a tool for getting the most enjoyable sound out of my music collection. The most enjoyable sounding hi-fi for me is the one that makes my music sound most like a live performance. Even if it's a series of in-booth recordings multi-tracked together you've still got actual musicians playing actual instruments.

I also find that I enjoy a good recording of a style of music that I'm not particularly into more than I enjoy a poor recording of a style of music that's right up my street. Whilst of course, most enjoyable of all is a good recording of one of my favourite types of music.

 

[JMacMan]

This is a quote from another thread:

...after reading through a load of threads on here recently that people are more and more concerned with every little detail and minutia of music reproduction through their systems that the music seems forgotten somehow!

You make a valid and very interesting point there Jim. For me the interest in hifi equipment and my love of actually listening to the music are two completely separate things.

Speaking as an amateur as far as understanding the equipment is concerned I find it fascinating learning about how things like speakers, amplifiers, digital audio and even cables ( ) work. But on the other hand when I'm actually listening to the music I rarely think about any of those things, I just enjoy the music for what it is. In fact part of the reason why I bought an 'all in one' hifi system is because it allows me to just sit back and enjoy the music without feeling the need to keep tweaking the system.

When I'm not at home I often listen to music on a little £12 portable speaker plugged into an MP3 player. I find that even though the sound quality isn't anywhere near as good as the hifi system at home I still enjoy listening to music just as much.

It's similar to other things like cars. I enjoy reading about cars because I like to understand things like engines, differentials and how different materials work. I also enjoy driving but when I'm sitting behind the wheel I rarely consider the mechanical side of what's happening, I just enjoy the experience.

What are your opinions on this?

What do you enjoy the most? The music, the equipment or both?

Are they two separate things for you or part of the same thing?

Two separate things for me.

Music is an art form.

HiFi reproduction is a science.

Music is mostly enjoyed/experienced at the most intense and intimate level for me personally, by actually playing an instrument or singing - or one can read the score and hear the music playing in ones head, or one can attend live concerts. The composers art can be appreciated in a car, via iPhone + headphones, or a bedroom clock radio.

An high quality, neutral and transparent, high resolution HiFi designed with rigour to known scientific and psycho-acoustic principles at the highest levels, allows a more believable, or realistic illusion of a live performance than what a car stereo, iPhone + headphones, or a bedroom clock radio can manage, and the experience can be shared with others - which is a social advantage.

The art form, is the music, the musical instruments played and the artists who play them; the HiFi is defined by scientific principles, is not an art form or a musical instrument - merely a 'reproducer' of sound to an as accurate a degree as the laws of science and physics allows.

However, for some audiophiles, the music becomes a medium by which to listen to and assess the capabilities of the system as regards it's reproducing abilities, and hence the two become both conjoined and confused.

These audiophiles become very obsessed with the sound of kit, as against listening to the music played upon it, and venture into all sorts of casting of rune stones and pseudo science - another aspect of the hobby interesting and valuable enough in itself to those who indulge in it, pehaps, - but ultimately one that has little to do with music as an art form, and instead tends to create mere differences in the sound of the kit, as against actually advancing the reproduction per se.

I'd also argue the life is all about balance, and like all hobbies taken to excessive degrees, one can end up missing out on the bigger picture of life - HiFi after all is an adjunct to ones hopefully varied life and other interests.

JMac

 

[fr0g]

Music definitely comes first.

But I agree with CnoEvil, the better the sound, the more pleasure.

My next purchase within a year or so will hopefully be some full range active floorstanding speakers. Not sure where to start looking though.

 

[JMacMan]

Music definitely comes first.

But I agree with CnoEvil, the better the sound, the more pleasure.

My next purchase within a year or so will hopefully be some full range active floorstanding speakers. Not sure where to start looking though.

As an AVI 9.1 owner, surely the ADM40's?

Such a move would also allow a matched and fully active AV system - not to be sneezed at IMHO....

Just a thought mind... there are other options of course....

JMac

 

[CJSF]

Mmm . . . got me thinking . . . reading some of the self important, self indulgent waffle, almost made me move on. Then I thought; the two thing as far as I am converened are seperate entities that I take pleasure in joining to gether to give a performance for my benefit to appreciate and enjoy. To do this I have to be the technician and the audiance . . . I consider my roll as the conductor of an orcestra, he moulds the performance in rehersals to 'his way, his interpritation' of the original composition, which will eventualy be presented to an audiance.

. . . therefore the same piece of music will sound totaly differant depending on conductor, simples . . .

Begs a question; art form, whose, the composer, the orcestra or the conductor . . . is there a right or wrong way?

CJSF

 

[richardw42]

Prob 90% of my listening is when I'm walking the dogs (usually a couple of hours a day)

On an iPhone 4S through its own speaker in my jacket pocket.

I'm lucky with the hifi I have, bu if I went bankrupt tomorrow it wouldn't be the end of the word (in music terms).

 

[fr0g]

Music definitely comes first.

But I agree with CnoEvil, the better the sound, the more pleasure.

My next purchase within a year or so will hopefully be some full range active floorstanding speakers. Not sure where to start looking though.

As an AVI 9.1 owner, surely the ADM40's?

Such a move would also allow a matched and fully active AV system - not to be sneezed at IMHO....

Just a thought mind... there are other options of course....

JMac

If they had been a 3-way it would be a given. And there is a no return policy at the moment, and I can't trial them so easily (here in Sweden) Given the money I'd go for some Meridan ESP7200, but they are a little rich for my blood. I am keeping my options open and looking at the 2nd hand market too. Some old ATC's would probably fit the bill

 

[Alec]

Mmm . . . got me thinking . . . reading some of the self important, self indulgent waffle, almost made me move on. Then I thought; the two thing as far as I am converened are seperate entities that I take pleasure in joining to gether to give a performance for my benefit to appreciate and enjoy. To do this I have to be the technician and the audiance . . . I consider my roll as the conductor of an orcestra, he moulds the performance in rehersals to 'his way, his interpritation' of the original composition, which will eventualy be presented to an audiance.

. . . therefore the same piece of music will sound totaly differant depending on conductor, simples . . .

Begs a question; art form, whose, the composer, the orcestra or the conductor . . . is there a right or wrong way?

CJSF

Such wonderful satire, bravo indeed!

 

[Craig M.]

If they had been a 3-way it would be a given. And there is a no return policy at the moment, and I can't trial them so easily (here in Sweden) Given the money I'd go for some Meridan ESP7200, but they are a little rich for my blood. I am keeping my options open and looking at the 2nd hand market too. Some old ATC's would probably fit the bill

You should perhaps consider flying over for a dem. I heard them recently, you would not believe how good they are.