Arcam Alpha upgrade advice

[The Darker Wave]

Hi guys.

I'm currently running an Arcam Alpha 8 amp, B&W 601 speakers, Pro-Ject DAC box USB, Atlas Element Integra interconnects and AudioQuest SLiP 14/4 speaker cable (Bi-Wired). All my music is streamed from my iTunes library to an Apple TV box which feeds the DAC via a QED optical lead. The AudioQuest speaker cable (and some isolation feet) are a recent purchase and have really made my amp come alive and it's got me thinking... could I push my set-up further?

I'm already planning of upgrading the DAC to an Arcam irDAC when funds allow. The Pro-Ject DAC is pretty sweet but definitely shines more in the top end, leaving the bass notes a little forgotten. The separation is amazing though. Though the irDAC has been getting such glowing reviews it's hard to resist.

My question is this... ignoring the DAC for a second... should I buy an Alpha 8P power amp and Bi-Amp my B&W's or think about upgrading my amp to an Alpha 9 or 10 (with a view to adding a matching power amp at a later date)?

 

[plastic penguin]

Welcome...

From personal experience of the Alpha range I would look at upgrading the speakers, depending on budget to B&W 602, 685S2 or Focal 706V or Q Acoustics or Dali.

Personally, there isn't any real benefit to bi-wiring. Adding a power amp will give a small uplift, but speakers first IMO.

 

[bluedroog]

I used to run an Arcam Alpha 8 in to B&W 602s so very similar, a lovely warm system even if not the most refined slot of fun.

Whst actually sre you trying to improve?

 

[bluedroog]

I used to run an Arcam Alpha 8 in to B&W 602s so very similar, a lovely warm system even if not the most refined slot of fun.

Whst actually sre you trying to improve?

 

[The Darker Wave]

Cheers for your replies guys. Wow. I really wasn't expecting to hear that the 601's where the weak link in my system. I always thought they were outclassing the amp. Are the 602's really that much better?

Agreed that bi-wiring the speakers didn't really give that much of a boost. I was hoping that bi-amping them would achieve that.

Say I did upgrade my speakers... where would you go next with the rest of the system? Personally I feel that the sound stage could be a little more expansive and the response of the bottom end improved greatly.

 

[plastic penguin]

Cheers for your replies guys. Wow. I really wasn't expecting to hear that the 601's where the weak link in my system. I always thought they were outclassing the amp. Are the 602's really that much better?

Agreed that bi-wiring the speakers didn't really give that much of a boost. I was hoping that bi-amping them would achieve that.

Say I did upgrade my speakers... where would you go next with the rest of the system? Personally I feel that the sound stage could be a little more expansive and the response of the bottom end improved greatly.

As regards speakers, I've had my Alpha 7R powering Monitor Audio RS6, and my A65+ heard with PMC GB1s. I wouldn't go overboard with speakers, but you can certainly do better than the B&W 601s. Good speakers in their day but the amp (and your ears) deserve better.

Personally heard with Alphas and A65+:

PMC DB1i, GB1s, MA RS6, GR10s, Kef IQ5, MA BR5, Wharfedales, JM Lab Focal Chorus 714S, Focal 714V...

After speakers I wiould perhaps look at a Alpha power amp (optional). Otherwise, sit back and enjoy the beautiful sounds.

 

[JoelSim]

Biamping Arcam is a good idea. I used to have an A85/P85 biamped and it was lovely.

 

[plastic penguin]

What Joel has omitted to say: With his flagship DIVA amps he did have a £800 Dali Ikon 6 floorstanding speakers. Adding the power amp was the last link in his particular chain at that point.

I honestly believe the OP will get most benefit from better speakers.

 

[The Darker Wave]

I've been quite happy with my old 601's, so if I was going to upgrade them I'd be keen to stick to B&W. I remember auditioning my set-up (many moons ago I'll grant you) and how crucial speaker pairing was. The 685 S2's you mentioned previously look like a good contender. If I was to penny pinch, were the original 685's any good? I think the PMC GB1's you've been running are a little out of my price range.

You clearly rate the Alpha 8 amp, but if I was to upgrade it where would you go?

 

[plastic penguin]

I've been quite happy with my old 601's, so if I was going to upgrade them I'd be keen to stick to B&W. I remember auditioning my set-up (many moons ago I'll grant you) and how crucial speaker pairing was. The 685 S2's you mentioned previously look like a good contender. If I was to penny pinch, were the original 685's any good? I think the PMC GB1's you've been running are a little out of my price range.

You clearly rate the Alpha 8 amp, but if I was to upgrade it where would you go?

The Alpha 8 was a highly rated amp at the time and is still surprisingly popular now. However, going back to the speaker issue, try and audition as many different makes as possible within your price range. Arcam really do make flexible amps, and by that I mean compatible with a list of different speakers. The only caveat is make sure the speaker decibels isn't lower than 87dbs.

I've only heard the 685s with Rotel amplification, although have heard the 602s with Arcams.

As far as PMC goes I'd keep an eye out of a pair of DB1is on auction sites. They're cut above most sub-£1000 standmounts and can be picked up for around £400. I'm biased as I own TB2is. Sorry.

Any of the others I've mentioned I'd be surprised if you don't hear a pleasing uplift.

*EDIT* If I was upgrade from the Alpha 8 I would look at newer Arcam A19, Creek, Rotel (if you are sticking with B&W)... if you can stretch your budget, Leema Elements. I have the Leema Pulse and love it. Again, you'll need to hear these for yourself.

Bear in mind that your current B&W 601s were/are budget speakers, and I don't think you'll benefit from buying a different amp until the speakers have been addressed.

 

[ID.]

I think the 685s2 would work pretty well with the Alpha series, but its just a hunch. I've never heard them together.

I used to have an Alpha 9 and it had brilliant, very 3D sound stage. Enveloping really. Bass was also beautifully judged. Not overbearing, but very tactile. Not sure how much of those features came from the speakers and CD player (a rotel of similar vintage).

 

[The Darker Wave]

Plastic Penguin: The PMC DB1i's look fine speakers, but does my Alpha amp have enough guts to drive them? I've heard they need soom muscle to get the best out of them?

ID: What speakers did you have paired with your Alpha 9? You didn't mention?

 

[plastic penguin]

Plastic Penguin: The PMC DB1i's look fine speakers, but does my Alpha amp have enough guts to drive them? I've heard they need soom muscle to get the best out of them?

ID: What speakers did you have paired with your Alpha 9? You didn't mention?

Yes, as long as don't want to blow the walls down. I've dem'd these with my old A65+, which is only 40 watts per channel, so the Alpha 8 shouldn't have an issue.

The spec of the DB1is is 87db into 8ohms, so fairly easy to drive.

 

[The Darker Wave]

Cheers fella!

 

[The Darker Wave]

Okay. So I got outbid on a set of PMC DB1i's last night on fleabay. They went for over £500 in the end. A little out of my budget. However I've seen a pair of TB2's for sale locally for a good price. I know they're about as old as my B&W's but are they any good?

 

[bluedroog]

Are they the original TB2s with metal tweeter? To be honest all the TB2s will be better than the B&Ws, if you can get on with the transmission line, some don't. I think there was a bigger step up between the originals and the + version than there was between the + and 'i' version, you can usually find some pretty good deals on the original version though. Are you buying these blind, have you heard transmission line speakers before? I went to demo the Twenty 22s which share many design characteristics of the TB2s and while I thought they were wonderful in many respects there was something in the mid / bass area I just couldn't get on with, it may've been emphasised by the room but it felt disjointed to me.

 

[The Darker Wave]

Yep. They look like the original TB2s to me. From what'd heard the placement of transmission line speakers is more critical than others, not sure if that's why you didn't get on with the Twenty 22s?

Anyway... would an original pair of TB2's be ebough of a step up from my B&W's, would they be a good match to my Alpha 8 amp and what would be a good price for them?

 

[plastic penguin]

Yep. They look like the original TB2s to me. From what'd heard the placement of transmission line speakers is more critical than others, not sure if that's why you didn't get on with the Twenty 22s?

Anyway... would an original pair of TB2's be ebough of a step up from my B&W's, would they be a good match to my Alpha 8 amp and what would be a good price for them?

Did say in my initial response not to go OTT. The Alpha is a good amp but the TB2s may be a step too far, as the originals retailed around the £1,000 ten years ago. My TB2is sound great with the Leema but it is a good step up from the Alpha range. However, the figures say they are a little more efficient than the DB1s, but it has been so long since I've heard the DB1s I'd be reluctant to give a confident comparison.

 

[The Darker Wave]

Ha ha. Okay. Point taken. Though you started it with the speakers. I'd have been quite happy with an old Alpha 8P. ;-)

Though if I can get them for a good price (and if I can't buy anything better for the same money) and they'll play nicely together... is it worth taking a punt? Failing that there's a nice pair of old ATC SCM7's on ebay at the mo... or is it just best to stay clear of the old gear and put my hand in my pocket for a new pair of B&W 685 S2's?

 

[plastic penguin]

Ha ha. Okay. Point taken. Though you started it with the speakers. I'd have been quite happy with an old Alpha 8P. ;-)

Though if I can get them for a good price (and if I can't buy anything better for the same money) and they'll play nicely together... is it worth taking a punt? Failing that there's a nice pair of old ATC SCM7's on ebay at the mo... or is it just best to stay clear of the old gear and put my hand in my pocket for a new pair of B&W 685 S2's?

Look at these:

Tannoy. Heard the Precision 6.1 and they sound superb with the right amp. Your Arcam is the right one.

Q Acoustics Not heard these but have the 2020i and they are impressive for the money.

Kef: These should be cracking with your amp.

I would seriously take a listen to the above as I feel you'll be able to dem before signing on the dotted line, so to speak. Unlike auction sites, going to retailer like RS you are guaranteed of a warranty/returns policy, if a week or so down the line you feel they aren't quite right for you or your system.

I would avoid ATC and Dynaudio as they require a gutsy amp, more than 50 watts.

 

[The Darker Wave]

Hey guys. I thought a quick update was due.

I've still not managed to track down a pair of PMC's for the right price. However... I did pick up an Alpha 8P recently fairly cheap. I figured the PMC's would need a bit more grunt to drive them anyway.

All I can say is wow... what a difference.

I've played around bi-wiring my B&W's from just the 8P and also bi-amping them (with the integrated amp powering the high range and the power amp supplying the juice to the low range). Either way there's a massive difference to my previous set up. There's far more detail and separation, especially in the lower frequencies. However, once the speakers are bi-amped they really start to sing. I'm hearing detail in tracks that even my mates Cyrus set-up doesn't reveal and the sound stage is positively 3D.

Looking forward to seeing how big a leap forward the PMC's will be.

 

[plastic penguin]

Good to hear you've purchased the matching power amp. Add the PMCs and I'll predict you'll have a constant smile.