Apple Music and Qobuz

AndrewF

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Boy, this streaming stuff is a lot more complicated than I thought…

I have been using Airplay to stream to my old Airport 2’s. I now understand that the Airport 2’s are not capable of outputting anything above “CD quality”. Ok, so this forum helped me understand why I would want a proper streamer, and I have a CXN V2 coming soon.

BUT- now it seems, if I am reading things correctly, that Air Play (at the moment) will not stream Hi Res Lossless at all, and converts Apple Lossless to a lossy format during the streaming process. Is this correct? I feel like there are different things floating around on different sites, but WHF says this.

Now, there seems to be optimism that Apple will change this, to allow for proper lossless streaming, but unless I am getting this all wrong, there is no way to wirelessly get lossless to my CXN V2 when it arrives, using Apple Music.

So, since Qobuz is already on my Naim Muso 2, and is pre-installed on the CXN V2, I figured I would try Qobuz. First impressions- the selection of music is excellent, almost as good as Apple Music, and there are tons of lossless and Hi Res albums. So that is good. The less good part is that there is essentially no way to organize your music- it’s kind of a bizarre interface. I mean, it looks nice, and there is a lot of interesting information about the music, but the music in your “favorites” has a very random feel.

I briefly contemplated adding Roon to the mix, but I don’t have a desktop and I don’t need to pay for yet another service.

So, the workaround hack that seems like the only way to go here is to keep Apple Music, and use that as my main music discovery tool, and for streaming to headphones and in the car. Qobuz is reserved for dedicated listening time, finding the individual Hi Res albums I want to listen to at that moment, and not worrying about the organization.

I assume Qobuz is streaming lossless directly to the Muso 2 (right?). What is it sending to my speakers when I use Airplay to stream it to them?

And when Apple makes Hi Res streaming available, I drop Qobuz.

Thoughts? Problems with my ideas?
 

as286

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You got that right. Apple Music does not stream in lossless quality via Airplay 2. The signal is downgraded to AAC. Airplay 1, however, does stream in bit perfect lossless but this means you'd need an older device for that. Anything other than Apple Music does stream in lossless over either Airplay 1 or 2.
In your case, yes, Qobuz will stream lossless to your device.
At the moment it is not possible to stream Apple Music in lossless in any way other than to an Airplay 1. The proper way to get Apple HiRes into your hifi is via Apple Camera Adapter Kit and an external DAC.
 

AndrewF

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Thanks. I’ve moved on since then… I started having a lot of dropouts with Qobuz, so now I am trying Tidal. At the moment I prefer it greatly, especially as Tidal Connect works with all of my systems. Definitely better using one app to stream, rather than streaming from within the Cambridge app.
 

as286

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Glad that you have sorted it out. Please keep in mind, though, that Tidal's MQA is not lossless. A detailed analysis of why it is controversial can be found here.

My own experience is that both Apple Music and Qobuz sound significantly better than Tidal's MQA. With the good kit you have, you should hear the difference between MQA and lossless, even with the CXN's internal DAC.
 
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AndrewF

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The problem with Apple, at the moment, is that I don’t really have the capacity or interest in a hard wired solution. WiFi it is. Qobuz is nice, but the dropouts and UI are big negatives. My suspicion is that I will return entirely to the Apple fold once they start streaming hi-res, which I imagine is just a matter of time. I’ve got some nice bootlegs etc on my Apple library, and it is nice being able to download and then upload stuff like that.
 

AndrewF

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Anything other than Apple Music does stream in lossless over either Airplay 1 or 2.

There's an awful lot of contradictory information about exactly this issue. My understanding, having read a few different sources, is that Airplay 2 does not stream at higher than CD quality, no matter what source you use. In other words, anything (Qobuz, Tidal, Apple) streamed using AirPlay 2 will be streamed no higher than CD quality, no matter what the original resolution is.

What is your understanding of this?

I'm beginning to think that CD quality is pretty darn good, and maybe fussing about this isn't the best use of time (although it is fun...).
 

as286

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Yes, that is correct. Airplay (1+2) can only stream at CD quality. Blind testing proves that people mostly cannot hear the difference between CD and HiRes so, yes, CD is perfect. But, here we are talking about Apple Music not streaming in lossless over Airplay even though it is their own tech. Is there an audible difference between sound streamed at lossless and AAC? I would say yes but subtle. In that sense, your point about waiting using Apple for streaming until they support it make sense.
 
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AndrewF

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Yes, that is correct. Airplay (1+2) can only stream at CD quality. Blind testing proves that people mostly cannot hear the difference between CD and HiRes so, yes, CD is perfect. But, here we are talking about Apple Music not streaming in lossless over Airplay even though it is their own tech. Is there an audible difference between sound streamed at lossless and AAC? I would say yes but subtle. In that sense, your point about waiting using Apple for streaming until they support it make sense.

If I can bother you one more time:

I spent a while listening to the same tracks on Tidal Connect and Apple Music streamed via Airplay, and I really can’t tell a difference. So Tidal is gone, and I will stick with Apple. The screen on the CXN reports 44.1/16 AAC. So it is “CD quality” but a lossy format?

i feel like all of this worrying about formats detracts from just listening. I think I prefer listening….
 

as286

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It is CD quality at the source which gets downscaled to AAC 256, that is why you see both 44.1/16 and AAC. The latter is rather good, mind you, so I am not surprised that you do not notice the difference.

I do not know whether you have TidalHiFi or HiFi Plus. This matters as CXN does not have an internal MQA decoder. If latter, Tidal's MQA files will go down to 44.1/16. They then get upsampled to 384/24 within CXN. I do not know what this does to sound quality. If you have TidalHIFi, the files would be 44.1/16 to begin with (although with reservations about how they came to this expressed in the YouTube critique of MQA above). In either case, you have been comparing Tidal at 44.1/16 and Apple at AAC256, both being converted in your CXN's internal DAC.

What would really make a difference, though, is a good DAC. If you added Chord Mojo 2 into the pot, for example (for desktop and mobile wired listening ), this is where these subtleties would begin to show, mainly in the soundstage whichever format you use. And, since both Nait and CXN are excellent kit, this should be worth looking into.

(As a footnote, Chord Electronics, which makes the Mojo, Hugo and others, avoids MQA and so do some other big brands. Too much alchemy in the process).
 
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BigH

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Thanks. I’ve moved on since then… I started having a lot of dropouts with Qobuz, so now I am trying Tidal. At the moment I prefer it greatly, especially as Tidal Connect works with all of my systems. Definitely better using one app to stream, rather than streaming from within the Cambridge app.
Dropouts could be to do with your router, see other thread about Qobuz, many have sorted by changing the router, if you have a BT or Virgin one, and changing the DNS.
 

AndrewF

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It is CD quality at the source which gets downscaled to AAC 256, that is why you see both 44.1/16 and AAC. The latter is rather good, mind you, so I am not surprised that you do not notice the difference.

I do not know whether you have TidalHiFi or HiFi Plus. This matters as CXN does not have an internal MQA decoder. If latter, Tidal's MQA files will go down to 44.1/16. They then get upsampled to 384/24 within CXN. I do not know what this does to sound quality. If you have TidalHIFi, the files would be 44.1/16 to begin with (although with reservations about how they came to this expressed in the YouTube critique of MQA above). In either case, you have been comparing Tidal at 44.1/16 and Apple at AAC256, both being converted in your CXN's internal DAC.

What would really make a difference, though, is a good DAC. If you added Chord Mojo 2 into the pot, for example (for desktop and mobile wired listening ), this is where these subtleties would begin to show, mainly in the soundstage whichever format you use. And, since both Nait and CXN are excellent kit, this should be worth looking into.

(As a footnote, Chord Electronics, which makes the Mojo, Hugo and others, avoids MQA and so do some other big brands. Too much alchemy in the process).

Simple solution- USB C to B cable, direct connection from older IPad to CXN V2. Sounds great. I think there is a small difference from streaming, but either way this is a painless way to experiment.

Hejira is playing at 192 as I write.

I’ve appreciated your advice, btw.
 

AndrewF

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Dropouts could be to do with your router, see other thread about Qobuz, many have sorted by changing the router, if you have a BT or Virgin one, and changing the DNS.

thanks. I’m in Minnesota, the colonies. So no BT or Virgin…

I think I’m all set now. Thanks!
 

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