Apex MA vs CM8 the results!

[duaplex]

Ok so having had this debate about sub sat vs floorstanding for a while, I finally went and tested them one after the other using the lx83.

First i heard the CM8 package, movie of choice was spiderman. It was detailed and sublime, i could hear ever crease of leather and ever drop of rain around me. I felt immersed in the movie without a doubt. However the downside was that the lx83 somehow lost control of the bass and I heard a distortion in he PV1, that horrible thorb noise you get when the volume is too high . That did not impress me in the least as the PV1 is an amazing sub!

Next came the Apex- The Apex was detailed, however nowhere near as good as the CM8, there was something missing, and that was the mid driver. that Mid driver had bought more detail out of hte movie for me. The Apex sorely lacked in this area and at that point i signalled for a stop in the demo, i was that unimpresed. The sub was also nowhere near as good as the PV1, it was flat and lifeless.

In conclusion, the CM8 (floor standing) in this range trumps the sub sat system. Granted films are recorded with sub/sats, but there no way a small speaker that size can macth a full size one, the lx83 made that painfully clear. Of course there are more expensive sub/sats that need trying, however as far as the apex goes, there is no way i would spend that amount of money on it when there are alternatives that pummel it.

So this now leaves me with the GS20 and Q900 to try out....Dave im coming for you

 

[Gerrardasnails]

I could have told you that before you went!! However, were the settings altered in between demos? The Apex would need different crossovers, set to small etc

 

[Clare Newsome]

Thanks for the interesting results of your testing - always good to hear how people's auditioning goes.

You are, of course, totally correct that there's no way even the best style speakers can match good full-size ones. But some people simply don't have the space (or tolerance) for the larger designs, which is where there's a need for sub/sat alternatives - of which the Apex is a great example, when judged against its peers.

It's why we differentiate between the two types of speaker packages in both in our Buyer's Guide, here on the website and in our annual Awards.

 

[duaplex]

Yes, he reconfigured the pioneer for the Apex. I know what you mean, but its one of those thing that I had to put to rest in my mind

[EDITED BY MODS - DUPLICATE THREAD REMOVED]

 

[duaplex]

Thanks for the interesting results of your testing - always good to hear how people's auditioning goes.

You are, of course, totally correct that there's no way even the best style speakers can match good full-size ones. But some people simply don't have the space (or tolerance) for the larger designs, which is where there's a need for sub/sat alternatives - of which the Apex is a great example, when judged against its peers.

It's why we differentiate between the two types of speaker packages in both in our Buyer's Guide, here on the website and in our annual Awards.

HI Clare

Yes you are right and this site is what I base most of my testing on. As you know everyone has an opinion on these. Most retailers that i visited tried to push the idea that the apex would be better all round for movies instead of the full size speakers and I should only buy a tall standing speaker if i wanted music as opposed to movies. Nothing could be further than the truth on this one.

Hence why I had to test them again and report back my findings for people like me who endlessly post that question of forums and get different answers all the time.

 

[Gerrardasnails]

Don't get me wrong, I think the Apex are brilliant - I have two on my walls, but I've never heard my system with full size rear speakers as my room doesn't offer that option.

 

[Frank Harvey]

I would say that the LX83 has no bearing on the control of the PV1 as it's the PV1's own internal amplier that has that responsibility. Chances are, you just reached a note or two at a volume the PV1 didnt like.

From now, this is where it gets interesting - CM8, GS60, and Q900 - all quite different!

 

[duaplex]

This is what I cannot wait to hear! Good to know the lx83 was not responsible for it, thank you for the correction there. At least I dont have to change the amp.

So 2 down and 2 to go. Of course the sad fact is I cannot test these in London....Astonishing I know. So off to coventry I go by the looks of it

 

[duaplex]

Don't get me wrong, I think the Apex are brilliant - I have two on my walls, but I've never heard my system with full size rear speakers as my room doesn't offer that option.

Thats just it, as an alternative the Apex is great. If i had not heard the CM8 i would be praising the Apex to no end as it is a great package for what it is. I watched inception on the Apex and the scene before the train hits the car was astonishing, you could hear the detail very well and i felt like i was standing outside in the rain.

But as opposed to a floorstanding speaker with mid range it just adds that extra bit to it that makes the difference and give the detail expected. Also the PV1 is a good sub which makes films more pleasurable. The Dark Knight and the tunnel chase scene had me reaching for my credit card! But then I refrained, still need to test more I said to myself.

 

[Anonymous]

i checked out the Apex but it was just too expensive in the end. I cant abide by the idea of sattelites tho. music and movies always seem to lack everything and could not live with it.

the compromise i made was simplly to get the MA Radius HD 5.1 with the floorstander 270s for the front. space saved and not too much of a compromise.

one day i will have a big enough house/lounge for some stonking floorstanders....one day

 

[v1c]

Was the LX83 recalibrated when the Apex were used after the CM8's ?

I only ask as the MKSound guide page 45 indicates that a "properly chosen and set-up sat/sub can out perform even the largest full-range speaker

Interesting that you don't find the apex a match for the CM8's i find that suprising given the status of the apex system.

The only floor standers that i have heard better than my MK M's (sub/sat) were pioneers S 1 EX in a 5.1 (6k for the front pair alone) hooked up to an LX 90 it's the only system i have heard that i thought was better than what i have.

Anyway i was just woundering if the apex were given a proper chance that's all.

 

[ric71]

I too am surprised that the Apex performed so unimpressively.

I do not say this because I own a set of Apex. I am genuinley surprised!

It is down to personal taste at the end of the day but the fact that the PV1 distorted is not a sign of a properly calibrated system.

Makes you wonder why the Apex sounded so bad?

Were they run in,room correction re run if it had been used?

Ive never heard a flat and lifeless MA sub.

 

[Frank Harvey]

I think whether people prefer sub/sat systems or floor standing h-fi speakers for movies is just as personal preference as CD and vinyl. Neither are necessarily correct, and both have their strong points and weaknesses. There is a very good reason why movie studios use smaller, bookshelf sized, sealed cabinet loudspeakers though.

For me, if I were to purchase a floor standing speaker system for movies, it wou.d have to sound a specific way, which wouldn't be how the speakers would sound naturally. I just find them too polite and woolly. But that's my preference.

 

[duaplex]

To answer the questions, yes it was recalibrated for the Apex, as to whether they were run in is unkonwn, I highly doubt either of them were as they are demonstration models in the shop. I would imagine they take a good amount of listening to before they run in.

I have heard the Apex system in two different stores now and both times, the Sub just did not pack the punch so i dont think its an isolated incident. The advantage of the floorstands is that it handles mid range and carries more weight in its bass, therefore it can leave the sub to handle a variation of others frequencies. The apex on the other hand does not have that luxury and relies on the sub for all its bass, which does not allow you to recieve a full range of bass frequencies. The PV1 is an impressive sub, and the distortion was only heard in oe movie, Batman played superbly. But i agree the calibration could have been off on that one.

Sure loads of reviews say different things, such as the Apex matching a floorstand and beating it, but some of the same reviewers have also said that the Q700 gets 3/5 stars and the Q900 gets 4/5. So i take everything with a pinch of salt.

Ultimately its all personal preference, some prefer a different type of sound. I tend to like the sound to engulf me and suck me into the movie with high detail and resounding bass.

 

[bigboss]

Agreed. It's all down to personal preference. When I compared the AW12, the PV1 & the RSW12, the AW12 was easily the best of the lot. I hated the Pioneer receiver when I compared a few with my Radius HD speakers. Yamaha was superb, Denon was excellent as well, but it had recently increased its prices because of the weaker Pound. So the decision was easy for me.

 

[Boca]

David can you elaberate why movie studios use smaller book shelfs.

thanks

 

[Anonymous]

Sad to hear that, just sold my Dali Ikons with a view to getting the Apex, I have the Pioneer LX82 so I am concerned to hear that the Apex performed poorly, I have a big room (open plan) to fill and I was convinced that the Apex could handle the space.

 

[Gerrardasnails]

To answer the questions, yes it was recalibrated for the Apex, as to whether they were run in is unkonwn, I highly doubt either of them were as they are demonstration models in the shop. I would imagine they take a good amount of listening to before they run in.

I have heard the Apex system in two different stores now and both times, the Sub just did not pack the punch so i dont think its an isolated incident. The advantage of the floorstands is that it handles mid range and carries more weight in its bass, therefore it can leave the sub to handle a variation of others frequencies. The apex on the other hand does not have that luxury and relies on the sub for all its bass, which does not allow you to recieve a full range of bass frequencies. The PV1 is an impressive sub, and the distortion was only heard in oe movie, Batman played superbly. But i agree the calibration could have been off on that one.

Sure loads of reviews say different things, such as the Apex matching a floorstand and beating it, but some of the same reviewers have also said that the Q700 gets 3/5 stars and the Q900 gets 4/5. So i take everything with a pinch of salt.

Ultimately its all personal preference, some prefer a different type of sound. I tend to like the sound to engulf me and suck me into the movie with high detail and resounding bass.

This is interesting. When I calibrated my system it sets the Apex Sats to large. I have always found that setting your speakers to small and setting the crossovers for each speaker works so much better. My floorstanders are set to small as well. If the system was just recalibrated by the receiver and left, I would suggest is the reason for the bad performance.

 

[Frank Harvey]

Sad to hear that, just sold my Dali Ikons with a view to getting the Apex, I have the Pioneer LX82 so I am concerned to hear that the Apex performed poorly, I have a big room (open plan) to fill and I was convinced that the Apex could handle the space.

Don't worry too much. Don't forget, these are all opinions - some people will prefer sub/sat packages, some hi-fi speakers. Have a listen and see what you think.

 

[Frank Harvey]

This is interesting. When I calibrated my system it sets the Apex Sats to large. I have always found that setting your speakers to small and setting the crossovers for each speaker works so much better. My floorstanders are set to small as well. If the system was just recalibrated by the receiver and left, I would suggest is the reason for the bad performance.

Sub/sats are designed to work as small speakers. Setting them to large is just asking them to do stuff they're not capable of doing.

You're the same as myself Gerrard - because I prefer sub/sats for movies, I find hi-fi speakers (no matter how large they are), sound better to me when set to small, as this makes them perform more like a sub/sat package, and helps with integrating the (usually) different sized speakers that usually go to make up these types of packages.

 

[Anonymous]

Have started to audition replacments and managed 3 over my lunch, very interesting, first up was a Kef q500 stystem though the guy did not have the natching centers or Sub however I was happy he was using a pioneer amp and blur ray similar to mine but next grade down. In stereo I was very impressed very clean very clean treble sort of cut through the air far better than my Dali's. Hard to day about full movie mode I need to give him more time to put all the boxes together.

B&W 884 was next, he was using a samsun bluray and an arcam 500 amp, have to be honest I thought it was dull, no improvement on the Dali in Movie mode, Music using a Olive 6 was better very subtle but I did not take to it, he suggested the 683 was better which was more expensive ofcourse. ps the Olive was cool.

Next tried to get an Apex Audition but they don't stock them you have to order them so will never get to hear that, listened to the radiius and the dealer said whilst Apex is better the sound in movies will not be so great, he thinks Bronz FX is the way to go as for music its so much better, I will audition that when I get time, the Radous steup was not much to should about even though he was using the RXW12.

Popped by the Dali shop and he said for movies there is not a significant improvment on the old ones, more bass but honestly I think the Ikons are overpriced now.

So in conclusion Kefs seem to fit the budget and the sound I am looking for...safar.

 

[duaplex]

Sad to hear that, just sold my Dali Ikons with a view to getting the Apex, I have the Pioneer LX82 so I am concerned to hear that the Apex performed poorly, I have a big room (open plan) to fill and I was convinced that the Apex could handle the space.

No dont be disheartened, this was my only experience. You may like the type of sound the Apex gives. For me personally the bass did not pack the right punch and the film lacked that mid range detail of bigger speakers. If i was in your position, I would go and demo the Apex and also demo the RX6 or even RX8 as your room is big.

How big is your room exactly? Because if its bigger than my 14x12 living room i would be tempted to look at some excellent offers on the GS20 package! As you are probably aware these range is due for an upgrde so there are some pretty decent deals about at the moment.

Let your ears be the judge and do not be content with only listening to one speaker package, listen to as many as you can and take your time. I have been looking and reading up on this stuff since December and Im finally coming close to buying.

 

[duaplex]

Thankyou for the feedback there, some excellent testing.

If your budget was for the Apex, why not stretch to the Q700 or Q900 if you can. Im going to test these very soon myself. I would try the CM range in the B&W its a totally different sound! like the CM8.

 

[Frank Harvey]

David can you elaberate why movie studios use smaller book shelfs.

thanks

I will get round to replying to you as soon as I can boca - I'll need a bit of time to explain it! I really should blog it somewhere....

And nice to hear from you again

 

[bigboss]

Next tried to get an Apex Audition but they don't stock them you have to order them so will never get to hear that, listened to the radiius and the dealer said whilst Apex is better the sound in movies will not be so great, he thinks Bronz FX is the way to go as for music its so much better, I will audition that when I get time, the Radous steup was not much to should about even though he was using the RXW12.

Looks like the dealer is trying to sell you something with a larger profit margin for him. If he cannot arrange a demo, go somewhere else for a demo. It's got 5 stars when WHF reviewed it for a reason, & is the WHF best buy for 2010.