apart from the loudness war

[Andrewjvt]

I want to pick all brains on this subject.

Lots of modern music is compressed and recorded to sound loud as the next man out there, i get that and understand

But..... when you start getting decent kit this can be a problem and bad recordings can be a concern or annoyance.

My question is: apart from trying to stand out on the radio is it so that the music sounds dynamic on phones, cheap radio and car stereo? To the detriment of real hifi. Apart from trying to sound loud is there another reason?

 

[chebby]

My question is: apart from trying to stand out ...

That's it. Louder = more noticed, more noticed = more purchased.

It doesn't matter what you think because hi-fi users (freaks) are a dot on a dot on a dot in the world of audio purchasing.

 

[Andrewjvt]

My question is: apart from trying to stand out  ...

That's it.  Louder = more noticed, more noticed = more purchased.

It doesn't matter what you think because hi-fi users (freaks) are a dot on a dot on a dot in the world of audio purchasing.

Its bad when madien ward and mama bears sounds more dynamic, clear and open than rhcp lol

 

[Andrewjvt]

Ive opened up to new genre and less hardcore.

 

[davedotco]

It has been said many times in different contexts, but 'louder sounds better'. Even though you can compensate using the volume control, in sighted tests or normal everyday listening, a louder recording still sounds better, even though it is not.

Originally it was perhaps the need to stand out on pop radio that started it all off, these days it just seems to be an artical of faith across the whole industry that louder sells more units.

Personally I do not consider this a huge problem, some music has little dynamic range and that is how it should be, similarly I see no issue mastering at the highest possible level.

Where ther is a real problem is overloading during mastering, the digital process simply cuts off the peaks (clipping) at maximum level, this is a process called 'limiting' and when applied in this way is brutal and pretty unpleasant. 'Limiting' in this way, to a modest degree anyway, can give the music an exciting 'edge', that in low resolution systems at least, is not really that audible as distortion.

However increase the limiting, or for that matter the resolution of the system and the distortion becomes obvious and very unpleasant, it is this distortion that most enthusists find most offensive. There are other techniques that can be used to produce similar effects, side chain compression for example, no clipping but just as offensive.

These methods are routinely used across most modern 'pop' and some rock music and are what most enthusiasts find most annoying. Heavily compressed but unclipped material may not sound that great, but it is nothing like as offensive.

 

[Andrewjvt]

It has been said many times in different contexts, but 'louder sounds better'. Even though you can compensate using the volume control, in sighted tests or normal everyday listening, a louder recording still sounds better, even though it is not.

Originally it was perhaps the need to stand out on pop radio that started it all off, these days it just seems to be an artical of faith across the whole industry that louder sells more units.

Personally I do not consider this a huge problem, some music has little dynamic range and that is how it should be, similarly I see no issue mastering at the highest possible level.

Where ther is a real problem is overloading during mastering, the digital process simply cuts off the peaks (clipping) at maximum level, this is a process called 'limiting' and when applied in this way is brutal and pretty unpleasant. 'Limiting' in this way, to a modest degree anyway, can give the music an exciting 'edge', that in low resolution systems at least, is not really that audible as distortion.

However increase the limiting, or for that matter the resolution of the system and the distortion becomes obvious and very unpleasant, it is this distortion that most enthusists find most offensive. There are other techniques that can be used to produce similar effects, side chain compression for example, no clipping but just as offensive.

These methods are routinely used across most modern 'pop' and some rock music and are what most enthusiasts find most annoying. Heavily compressed but unclipped material may not sound that great, but it is nothing like as offensive.

Must agree not a huge problem as even the californication sounds good but id happy pay more for an audiophile copy for the few

 

[MeanandGreen]

The vast majority of music playback now is on small portable audio. This cannot cope well with large dynamic range. As a result a lot of music is recorded with the dynamics compressed and everything whacked right up to 0db.

If you look at a VU meter these days, it often goes full scale and stays there!

Evrything in the track can be heard at the same volume throughout, yes it's often terrible on a Hi Fi system, but no one has Hi Fi systems anymore or even cares about sound quality in the way that people on these forums would.

We are the minority which is only going to decrease as time goes on. I know headphones are popular which should highlight poor recordings even when used with portable audio, but again 'Hi Fi' headphones are the minority. Headphones are mainly about fashion now.

Basically no one cares enough for anything to be done about it. There are still some good new recordings out there though, including some heavily compressed stuff.

 

[davedotco]

The vast majority of music playback now is on small portable audio. This cannot cope well with large dynamic range. As a result a lot of music is recorded with the dynamics compressed and everything whacked right up to 0db.

If you look at a VU meter these days, it often goes full scale and stays there!

Evrything in the track can be heard at the same volume throughout, yes it's often terrible on a Hi Fi system, but no one has Hi Fi systems anymore or even cares about sound quality in the way that people on these forums would.

We are the minority which is only going to decrease as time goes on. I know headphones are popular which should highlight poor recordings even when used with portable audio, but again 'Hi Fi' headphones are the minority. Headphones are mainly about fashion now.

Basically no one cares enough for anything to be done about it. There are still some good new recordings out there though, including some heavily compressed stuff.

I appreciate that the 'quality aware' sector of the music consuming puplic is tiny, but I'll be buggered if I am going to pay (even via Spotify) for deliberately produced rubbish.

Don't get me wrong, I dislike 'audiophile' favourites just as much and am quite happy to listen to 'raw' live recordings but that is different. I pay for my music and excersise choice, there is just so much great music on Spotify, I am not going to waste my time on the bilge.

 

[Al ears]

The vast majority of music playback now is on small portable audio. This cannot cope well with large dynamic range. As a result a lot of music is recorded with the dynamics compressed and everything whacked right up to 0db.

If you look at a VU meter these days, it often goes full scale and stays there!

Evrything in the track can be heard at the same volume throughout, yes it's often terrible on a Hi Fi system, but no one has Hi Fi systems anymore or even cares about sound quality in the way that people on these forums would.

We are the minority which is only going to decrease as time goes on. I know headphones are popular which should highlight poor recordings even when used with portable audio, but again 'Hi Fi' headphones are the minority. Headphones are mainly about fashion now.

Basically no one cares enough for anything to be done about it. There are still some good new recordings out there though, including some heavily compressed stuff.

Are you joking? VU meters? Which affordable kit has these today?

 

[The_Lhc]

The vast majority of music playback now is on small portable audio. This cannot cope well with large dynamic range. As a result a lot of music is recorded with the dynamics compressed and everything whacked right up to 0db.?

If you look at a VU meter these days, it often goes full scale and stays there!?

Evrything in the track can be heard at the same volume throughout, yes it's often terrible on a Hi Fi system, but no one has Hi Fi systems anymore or even cares about sound quality in the way that people on these forums would.?

We are the minority which is only going to decrease as time goes on. I know headphones are popular which should highlight poor recordings even when used with portable audio, but again 'Hi Fi' headphones are the minority. Headphones are mainly about fashion now.?

Basically no one cares enough for anything to be done about it. There are still some good new recordings out there though, including some heavily compressed stuff.

Are you joking? VU meters? Which affordable kit has these today?

It doesn't but then he never actually said it did...

 

[MeanandGreen]

Are you joking? VU meters? Which affordable kit has these today?

Today nothing that I know of. Unless you buy second hand vintage kit.

I do have 2 systems both with a Pioneer CD Recorder which I use as a DAC for my iTunes library. The CD Recorders both have a VU meter when used in monitoring mode, makes it easy to visualy notice how compressed some stuff is.

 

[Vladimir]

The loudness wars began in advertising for the reasons others described. So, if you're listening to music that is probably based on stolen riffs, got produced like an ad to grab attention, and sounds like poo, the real question you should be asking is why are you listening to it at all?

 

[The_Lhc]

The loudness wars began in advertising for the reasons others described. So, if you're listening to music that is probably based on stolen riffs, got produced like an ad to grab attention, and sounds like poo, the real question you should be asking is why are you listening to it at all?

Because you like the tune perhaps?

 

[Vladimir]

The loudness wars began in advertising for the reasons others described. So, if you're listening to music that is probably based on stolen riffs, got produced like an ad to grab attention, and sounds like poo, the real question you should be asking is why are you listening to it at all?

Because you like the tune perhaps?

I understand if the artist and the producer intentionally add gritty, grungy and noisy effects as an artistic expression, or if the technology of the time had limitations. But if they made the song with worse sound quality just to get more audience and profit, I call that rubbish. If I like the tune, I call it rubbish with a nice tune. *scratch_one-s_head*

A lot of music is not art but mass produced compromized rubbish (the bread and circuses) and if I happen to like some of it, I just keep my standards lowered and don't expect Decca recording/producing/mastering perfection from Adele or RHCP.

 

[Al ears]

The vast majority of music playback now is on small portable audio. This cannot cope well with large dynamic range. As a result a lot of music is recorded with the dynamics compressed and everything whacked right up to 0db.

If you look at a VU meter these days, it often goes full scale and stays there!

Evrything in the track can be heard at the same volume throughout, yes it's often terrible on a Hi Fi system, but no one has Hi Fi systems anymore or even cares about sound quality in the way that people on these forums would.

We are the minority which is only going to decrease as time goes on. I know headphones are popular which should highlight poor recordings even when used with portable audio, but again 'Hi Fi' headphones are the minority. Headphones are mainly about fashion now.

Basically no one cares enough for anything to be done about it. There are still some good new recordings out there though, including some heavily compressed stuff.

Are you joking? VU meters? Which affordable kit has these today?

It doesn't but then he never actually said it did...

Then what the hell did he say? Why mention them ?

The OPs original assessment that 'lots of' modern music is compressed is a fallacy.

No need to go on.

 

[The_Lhc]

The vast majority of music playback now is on small portable audio. This cannot cope well with large dynamic range. As a result a lot of music is recorded with the dynamics compressed and everything whacked right up to 0db.

If you look at a VU meter these days, it often goes full scale and stays there!

Evrything in the track can be heard at the same volume throughout, yes it's often terrible on a Hi Fi system, but no one has Hi Fi systems anymore or even cares about sound quality in the way that people on these forums would.

We are the minority which is only going to decrease as time goes on. I know headphones are popular which should highlight poor recordings even when used with portable audio, but again 'Hi Fi' headphones are the minority. Headphones are mainly about fashion now.

Basically no one cares enough for anything to be done about it. There are still some good new recordings out there though, including some heavily compressed stuff.

Are you joking? VU meters? Which affordable kit has these today?

It doesn't but then he never actually said it did...

Then what the hell did he say? Why mention them ?

He just used that as an example of illustrating the levels in the recording.

The OPs original assessment that 'lots of' modern music is compressed is a fallacy.

Really? That opinion would put you at odds with most commentators on the Loudness Wars.

 

[davedotco]

The Jungson J88D, not a stranger to these pages but still available out of Hong Kong for a very modest US$733 FOB.

Not just VU meters, Blue VU meters....*kiss2*

 

[lindsayt]

If you're listening to music in a noisy environment, such as in the car or in a factory then compression helps to hear the quieter bits without having to turn it up so much that the loudest bits are stupidly loud.

A high proportion of music listening for the average person is done in the car or as background noise whilst working.

 

[Vladimir]

If you're listening to music in a noisy environment, such as in the car or in a factory then compression helps to hear the quieter bits without having to turn it up so much that the loudest bits are stupidly loud.

A high proportion of music listening for the average person is done in the car or as background noise whilst working.

That's not why they do it.

 

[The_Lhc]

If you're listening to music in a noisy environment, such as in the car or in a factory then compression helps to hear the quieter bits without having to turn it up so much that the loudest bits are stupidly loud.

A high proportion of music listening for the average person is done in the car or as background noise whilst working.

That's not why they do it.

Sure about that? All the histories I've read suggest that compression was first added in order to make singles sound louder on AM car radios in the US, there's various stories around of producers taking their latest work into their car to listen to it to make sure it comes across well in that environment.

But hey, you know best, why do they do it?

 

[Vladimir]

If you're listening to music in a noisy environment, such as in the car or in a factory then compression helps to hear the quieter bits without having to turn it up so much that the loudest bits are stupidly loud.

A high proportion of music listening for the average person is done in the car or as background noise whilst working.

That's not why they do it.

Sure about that? All the histories I've read suggest that compression was first added in order to make singles sound louder on AM car radios in the US, there's various stories around of producers taking their latest work into their car to listen to it to make sure it comes across well in that environment.

But hey, you know best, why do they do it?

As others mentioned, to sound as loud or louder than anything else from the competition. More attention, more popularity, more money. There is absolutely no reason for loudness compression with digital media other than that. Today cars are quieter with better sound insulation than in the 1950s. There is no need for loudness compression for headphones because they also isolate from the environment. Vinyl has lower dynamic range due to physical limitations, not because it's an improvement.

Well, I guess it could be usefull if you were driving a convertable '67 Mustang while listening to AM rock stations playing you singles.

 

[The_Lhc]

If you're listening to music in a noisy environment, such as in the car or in a factory then compression helps to hear the quieter bits without having to turn it up so much that the loudest bits are stupidly loud.

A high proportion of music listening for the average person is done in the car or as background noise whilst working.

That's not why they do it.

Sure about that? All the histories I've read suggest that compression was first added in order to make singles sound louder on AM car radios in the US, there's various stories around of producers taking their latest work into their car to listen to it to make sure it comes across well in that environment.

But hey, you know best, why do they do it?

As others mentioned, to sound as loud or louder than anything else from the competition.

Yuh-huh, but why is that necessary? If everyone was listening to a quality hi-fi in an acoustically perfect room that wouldn't be necessary but they're not, they're listening on crappy portable systems or in noisy environments such as cars.

Today cars are quieter with better sound insulation than in the 1950s.

Sure but unless you're driving a 7 series BMW they're far from silent. I drive a modern car and if I'm blatting down a motorway I can't listen to Radio 3 as the quiet sections disappear into the background noise. Most people don't drive 7 series BMWs btw...

 

[splasher]

Yamaha and Technics do affordable amps with VU meters but equally plenty of ripping and playing software provided VU functionality.

I ripped some U2 albums from vinyl a couple of years ago, setting the levels carefully and then normalising for a peak of -0.5dB in each case. Out of curiosity, I loaded the Unforgettable Fire and All That You Can't Leave Behind into Audacity together and the first had occasional peaks at high/max amplitude whereas the latter looked like it had been coloured in.

Same band, just different mastering priorities.

 

[plastic penguin]

The Jungson J88D, not a stranger to these pages but still available out of Hong Kong for a very modest US$733 FOB.

Not just VU meters, Blue VU meters....*kiss2*

You flagged this one up to me some time back. Does look nice, but as it's only available in Hong Kong it's about as much use as chocolate teapot.

 

[davedotco]

The Jungson J88D, not a stranger to these pages but still available out of Hong Kong for a very modest US$733 FOB.

Not just VU meters, Blue VU meters....*kiss2*

You flagged this one up to me some time back. Does look nice, but as it's only available in Hong Kong it's about as much use as chocolate teapot.

They will export to the UK if you ask, in fact most of their business is export.

Try. http://www.cattylink.com/page82.html

Even allowing for extra packing, airfreight, handling charges, import duty and VAT, it should still be possible to land one in the UK for less than £1000.