Any pianists on the forum?

[steve_1979]

Here's something that may be of interest to you. There's a new type of keyboard with touch sensitive keys which enables pianists to create new sounds.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn23819-sensitive-piano-keys-let-pianists-create-new-sounds.html#.Ud_61BNwYgU

 

[The_Lhc]

Well, there's a few people I don't like much but I wouldn't go that far...

 

[steve_1979]

 

[chebby]

Matthewpiano maybe?

 

[The_Lhc]

Bit harsh, I've always thought he was a decent sort.

 

[matthewpiano]

Interesting, and could certainly have some impact on the synth/keyboard market in the future. One of the things that holds samples of instruments back is the poor provision for controlling vibrato, portamento etc. so this new tech could well find favour with those using a variety of sounds on a workstation synth, for example.

When it comes to pianos, though, the state of the art is still a well designed and constructed acoustic instrument, and the focus of most digital piano ranges (Kawai Concert Artist, Yamaha CLP etc.) is to try to emulate the real thing as closely as possible so I'm not so sure it will be of interest to most 'pianists'.

 

[alchemist 1]

Interesting, and could certainly have some impact on the synth/keyboard market in the future. One of the things that holds samples of instruments back is the poor provision for controlling vibrato, portamento etc. so this new tech could well find favour with those using a variety of sounds on a workstation synth, for example.

When it comes to pianos, though, the state of the art is still a well designed and constructed acoustic instrument, and the focus of most digital piano ranges (Kawai Concert Artist, Yamaha CLP etc.) is to try to emulate the real thing as closely as possible so I'm not so sure it will be of interest to most 'pianists'.

The LP v CD parallel.......Sounds like an LP result.

 

[steve_1979]

Interesting, and could certainly have some impact on the synth/keyboard market in the future. One of the things that holds samples of instruments back is the poor provision for controlling vibrato, portamento etc. so this new tech could well find favour with those using a variety of sounds on a workstation synth, for example.

When it comes to pianos, though, the state of the art is still a well designed and constructed acoustic instrument, and the focus of most digital piano ranges (Kawai Concert Artist, Yamaha CLP etc.) is to try to emulate the real thing as closely as possible so I'm not so sure it will be of interest to most 'pianists'.

That's interesting thanks. (I had to look up the word 'portamento' though)

 

[davedotco]

The original Kurtzweil sample playing keyboard circa 1980, had an 88 key wooden keyboard with velocity and pressure sensitive keys. It made no attempt to alter the sound like a synthesiser, just to play as close to a piano as possible.

Each note had multiple samples from a real piano, a full set of samples from a concert grand could cost up to £2k. The keyboard was set up to mimic the feel and response of the real thing and did not do a bad job. Real pianists found it hard to come to terms with, but anyone who had learned on a synth or electronic piano got on with it pretty well.

It's huge advantage was that it could simply be plugged into the desk, didn't need to be tuned and completely did away with all the faffing about with pickups or microphones.

The new developement appears to be the iPad style touch sensitive keys, which seems to make it more of a synth than a piano.

 

[davedotco]

Checking back, I am thinking of the K250, 1983/4.

Ours was regularly booked by the BBC particularly for any recordings of shows made 'on the road'. Also very popular with weekly shows that rehearsed in the Acton facilities then transfered to Television Centre for the recording.

Essentially hassle free, just plug and play.

 

[matthewpiano]

The keyboard was set up to mimic the feel and response of the real thing and did not do a bad job. Real pianists found it hard to come to terms with...

So it didn't really do a very good job then.

Even the full acoustic piano action on Yamaha's digital Avant Grand pianos isn't as good as the real thing, because it loses the really important feeling of the hammers bouncing off the taut strings, and also its repetition capability is relatively poor compared to an acoustic.

With regards to the sound even Yamaha's latest binaural sampling of a CFX concert grand still remains some way off the experience of hearing a real acoustic piano.

Somebody else earlier in this thread suggested that it is parallel to the LP Vs CD debate. I'd suggest not. A digital piano is trying to mimic an acoustic piano using recorded sounds and is therefore never going to be as good as the real thing.

 

[davedotco]

Not perfect, but not at all bad. It was the result of a friendly challenge between designer Ray Kurtzweil and Stevie Wonder and was remarkably good, an order of magnitude better than anything at the time and rarely if ever matched since. No it was not perfect, but on stage in particular it was a pretty good substitute, remember, in environments with extremely high spls, acoustic intruments, including pianos, play very differently.

The sound quality was simply not an issue, the Kurtzweil produced no acoustic output, it's line level output was better than anything you could get from a Helpinstill or Countryman on even the best pianos.

Of course a well set up microphone setup would be superior but that could only be achieved in a well controlled studio environment, for any band playing with amplified instruments, on stage or in the studio, it was a very, very good option.

 

[steve_1979]

...keyboard with velocity and pressure sensitive keys.

This sounds like a very logical way to make electronic keyboards more like the real thing. I'm surprised this method didn't catch on.

 

[abacus]

...keyboard with velocity and pressure sensitive keys.

This sounds like a very logical way to make electronic keyboards more like the real thing. I'm surprised this method didn't catch on.

Keyboards have had these features since the 80s with even the cheaper arranger keyboards (£300-400) having them these days, however there is more to a keyboard then just these simple features.

Makers are starting to move away from sampled pianos these days (Although Ivory http://www.synthogy.com/products/ivorygrand.html tends to be the default studio standard as you can use any Midi Controller keyboard with it) instead going onto Sound modelling an instrument (How a piano works and does things is analysed and converted into a mathematical formula, and then an algorithm is produced for the software which allow it to react in real time just like a piano) with one of the best software ones being Pianoteq http://www.pianoteq.com/ with a good hardware one being made by Roland called the V Piano http://www.roland.co.uk/products/productdetails.aspx?p=1158&c=21

Bill

 

[matthewpiano]

Except the V Piano still isn't close to experiencing the real thing.

 

[davedotco]

Except the V Piano still isn't close to experiencing the real thing.

If "the real thing" is the sound and feel of a real acoustic piano then you are 100% correct.

In terms of 'feel' the Kurtzweil comes as close as anything ever made, but it is not a real piano, no argument. In terms of sound quality it comes very close.

People often talk about how difficult it is to reproduce the sound of a piano on a home hi-fi system but true as this is it is only half the problem.

Recording a piano is just as difficult, speak to anyone seriously involved with classical recordings and they will tell you just how hard it is, even in 'ideal' studio conditions. Large diaphragm condenser mics will get it done but it is not easy, positioning is critical and just about every engineer I have met does it differently.

Trying to use mics when the piano is part of an 'electric' band is virtually impossible so pickups are usually used and these have their own issues, in addition, if the levels on stage are high, and they usually are, the piano itself will feel live and resonant, very different from a piano in a 'quiet' environment.

The Kurtzweil will feel different too, for the reasons stated above, though it is not affected by level. The real advantage is that you just plug it in, great sounding piano and zero hassle, for contempory keyboard players, rather than classical pianists, it is simply not an issue.

 

[danrv]

I play and teach piano / keyboards professionally. Does look interesting but would find that technology more useful on a semi-weighted synth rather than a piano action.