Any Need For More Than 5.1?

[motley]

I can help but notice that the new Denon AVR4810 is a 9.1 set up, although I have hankered after a 7.1 set up for some time I have been put off by the total lack on take up in the film industry to provide soundtracks to match (I do not include forcing a 5.1 soundtrack into more speakers) this was, after all, one of the supposed benefits of Blueray's disc capacity.

Is the advent on machines like this purely to arm users with ability to decode Pro-Logic IIz (seemingly a preserve of the gamers)and still have multi room capacity or do they know something we don't regarding the advent of 3D, which being a skeptic, will surely bring a glut of new sound formats?

 

[Anonymous]

motley:

I can help but notice that the new Denon AVR4810 is a 9.1 set up, although I have hankered after a 7.1 set up for some time I have been put off by the total lack on take up in the film industry to provide soundtracks to match (I do not include forcing a 5.1 soundtrack into more speakers) this was, after all, one of the supposed benefits of Blueray's disc capacity.

Is the advent on machines like this purely to arm users with ability to decode Pro-Logic IIz (seemingly a preserve of the gamers)and still have multi room capacity or do they know something we don't regarding the advent of 3D, which being a skeptic, will surely bring a glut of new sound formats?

As I understand it with the advent of 3D existing AV receivers will become redundant as they will not be compatable.

Of course its too early to confirm that as who knows what work arounds may become available , but thats what I've read so far

 

[Anonymous]

I have a 7.1 setup myself, and I think there's a benefit beyond the (limited) soundtrack options, which is the smoother panning effect you get from them. This is most noticeable if your room is quite wide.

 

[Anonymous]

Not really, in my opinion.

 

[Anonymous]

5.1 is sufficient for the size of my present room.

 

[Mr Gaz]

Haven't yet wired up for 7.1 ( even though speakers are in place ),. How are the extra channels created using blu-ray as a source ? Would I be right in assuming I will get 5.1 in DTS HD and my amp will create the extra 2 channels in Dolby Digital ??

Confused!!

 

[The_Lhc]

Some discs have the extra channels on them already (look for DTS-HD MA 7.1 soundtracks), otherwise there's probably a processing mode you can use on the amp to fudge the centre-rear channels.

 

[aliEnRIK]

In an 'average' sized room or smaller id say no

Using most av equipment id also say no as the extra channels tend to affect the overall quality

 

[cwalduck]

aliEnRIK I concour, went from 7.1 back to 5.1 the sound was to muddled when using additional rear speakers with my room size and setup.

 

[Big Chris]

kaotician:I have a 7.1 setup myself, and I think there's a benefit beyond the (limited) soundtrack options, which is the smoother panning effect you get from them. This is most noticeable if your room is quite wide.

This was my finding also when going from 5.1 to 7.1.

At first I thought there was actually less surround going on, but I soon realised that it was more fluid due to not having a gaping hole between front and rear.

I guess seamless would be the best description.

 

[lee37]

i have to agree with big chris there is a definent improvement in sound with the extra 2 speakers.

more blue ray films seem to be using 7.1 and thats where you can really tell the difference

 

[RCduck7]

I have been experimenting a lot on this.

Yes, you can use 2 additional surround speakers over a 5.1 setup and use them as matrix/ex but i's not the same as a discrete 7.1 channels recording.

As a matter a fact i found it worse, i heard a few 5.1 movies on a 7.1 speaker setup with EX matrix on the receiver and the typical surround effects of these movies were gone, they don't reach the listener anymore, no placement.

For example, there is a soundtrack i know well with the "Daredevil" movie. At the end of the movie, ben afleck has to fight the big black guy. When ben is on the floor and had a daydream the black guy talks to him. And as ben comes out of his daydream you can hear the black guy's voice coming from behind to the front before he attacks. in ex/matrix mode this effect is gone. Allthough i tried different positions of the back surrounds and even set them louder then they're supposed to sound, it doesn't help much.

The same thing in the Gladiator movie, when they take gladiator to the woods to murder him he had a chance to escape. He threw an axe to a soldier running away on a horse. As the axe find it's way to the soldier you can hear it going from back to front. In 5.1 with direct radiating speakers you have to be in or close to the sweetspot or the effect will be gone. But with 7 speakers the effect misses it's purity and placement. It makes me wonder how it would be with bipoles.

 

[aliEnRIK]

RCduck7:
I have been experimenting a lot on this.

Yes, you can use 2 additional surround speakers over a 5.1 setup and use them as matrix/ex but i's not the same as a discrete 7.1 channels recording.

As a matter a fact i found it worse, i heard a few 5.1 movies on a 7.1 speaker setup with EX matrix on the receiver and the typical surround effects of these movies were gone, they don't reach the listener anymore, no placement.

For example, there is a soundtrack i know well with the "Daredevil" movie. At the end of the movie, ben afleck has to fight the big black guy. When ben is on the floor and had a daydream the black guy talks to him. And as ben comes out of his daydream you can hear the black guy's voice coming from behind to the front before he attacks. in ex/matrix mode this effect is gone. Allthough i tried different positions of the back surrounds and even set them louder then they're supposed to sound, it doesn't help much.

The same thing in the Gladiator movie, when they take gladiator to the woods to murder him he had a chance to escape. He threw an axe to a soldier running away on a horse. As the axe find it's way to the soldier you can hear it going from back to front. In 5.1 with direct radiating speakers you have to be in or close to the sweetspot or the effect will be gone. But with 7 speakers the effect misses it's purity and placement. It makes me wonder how it would be with bipoles.

Thats very similar to what ive found when playing about with my dads system.

We also found that by switching off the 2 rears the overall sound quality became better (Probably due to the hugh amps he uses ~ too much power being drawn)

Interestingly, when he used a pioneer integrated and he then bought a separate 2 channel amp for left and right duties the REST of the system sounded better too (Like the pioneers power supply wasnt big enough to drive all the speakers, so when left and right were take away it had a lot more room to breathe)

 

[RCduck7]

aliEnRIK:RCduck7:

I have been experimenting a lot on this.

Yes, you can use 2 additional surround speakers over a 5.1 setup and use them as matrix/ex but i's not the same as a discrete 7.1 channels recording.

As a matter a fact i found it worse, i heard a few 5.1 movies on a 7.1 speaker setup with EX matrix on the receiver and the typical surround effects of these movies were gone, they don't reach the listener anymore, no placement.

For example, there is a soundtrack i know well with the "Daredevil" movie. At the end of the movie, ben afleck has to fight the big black guy. When ben is on the floor and had a daydream the black guy talks to him. And as ben comes out of his daydream you can hear the black guy's voice coming from behind to the front before he attacks. in ex/matrix mode this effect is gone. Allthough i tried different positions of the back surrounds and even set them louder then they're supposed to sound, it doesn't help much.

The same thing in the Gladiator movie, when they take gladiator to the woods to murder him he had a chance to escape. He threw an axe to a soldier running away on a horse. As the axe find it's way to the soldier you can hear it going from back to front. In 5.1 with direct radiating speakers you have to be in or close to the sweetspot or the effect will be gone. But with 7 speakers the effect misses it's purity and placement. It makes me wonder how it would be with bipoles.

Thats very similar to what ive found when playing about with my dads system.

We also found that by switching off the 2 rears the overall sound quality became better (Probably due to the hugh amps he uses ~ too much power being drawn)

Interestingly, when he used a pioneer integrated and he then bought a separate 2 channel amp for left and right duties the REST of the system sounded better too (Like the pioneers power supply wasnt big enough to drive all the speakers, so when left and right were take away it had a lot more room to breathe)

Low power couldn't be the case with me, i tried this with the AV receiver but also with a seperate multichannel amp, and the speakers aren't that hard to drive. I blame it on the EX processing in the AV receiver, if it is not the receiver which i doubt it is becausse i could try a friend his rotel processor to for a few days. It should be the EX processing standard in general that makes a compromise to integrate the other back channels. I agree, the moment you go from 5.1 to 7.1 there is a sense of more ambience and being present in the movie. This made me made up my mind that 7 channels is the way to go, and i listened for years to 7 channels. But the moment sound effects come in play, it seems EX makes bleeding them through the other back channels which removes the discrete effect. It took me a few years to realise that though as it has to be a certain sound effect going on from behind, the moment i was listening to certain effects in movies (as mentioned above) in 7.1 and switched to 5.1 the difference became all clear. Shame i have been looking for movies with 7 channels while 5 made the sound effect sound as intended for me. Is it down to the room? I think not, it is now my 3rd room my setup is in and the room i have now is 4m15 by 6 meter. looks pretty ideal for me.

 

[Anonymous]

Depends on how big the room is. I wouldn't go to the cinema if it was 5.1, waste of money.

 

[Tom Moreno]

RCduck7:
The same thing in the Gladiator movie, when they take gladiator to the woods to murder him he had a chance to escape. He threw an axe to a soldier running away on a horse. As the axe find it's way to the soldier you can hear it going from back to front. In 5.1 with direct radiating speakers you have to be in or close to the sweetspot or the effect will be gone. But with 7 speakers the effect misses it's purity and placement. It makes me wonder how it would be with bipoles.

Hmmn. This movie was originally mixed in 6.1 and I've listened to the DTS-ES DVD of it many times. It was an early DTS-ES release as well so certain pans were mixed by the mixers on purpose to show off the ability to pan directly from centre rear to centre front without involving the side rears and this is one of them. Another notable moment is the firing of the arrows in the opening battle sequence. You might prefer the involving sound of sounds approaching from the rear to start from both sides of your head but it might not be an accurate representation of what the mixers intended.

 

[RCduck7]

Octopo:Depends on how big the room is. I wouldn't go to the cinema if it was 5.1, waste of money.

Room is 6 meters long and tried setting them up differently. can't argue if the movie is recorded in 6.1 or 7.1 though, then more then 5 channels are best when setup properly.

 

[RCduck7]

Tom Moreno:RCduck7:

The same thing in the Gladiator movie, when they take gladiator to the woods to murder him he had a chance to escape. He threw an axe to a soldier running away on a horse. As the axe find it's way to the soldier you can hear it going from back to front. In 5.1 with direct radiating speakers you have to be in or close to the sweetspot or the effect will be gone. But with 7 speakers the effect misses it's purity and placement. It makes me wonder how it would be with bipoles.

Hmmn. This movie was originally mixed in 6.1 and I've listened to the DTS-ES DVD of it many times. It was an early DTS-ES release as well so certain pans were mixed by the mixers on purpose to show off the ability to pan directly from centre rear to centre front without involving the side rears and this is one of them. Another notable moment is the firing of the arrows in the opening battle sequence. You might prefer the involving sound of sounds approaching from the rear to start from both sides of your head but it might not be an accurate representation of what the mixers intended.

I have the DTS superbit 5.1 release of that movie, not a hint that it is recorded in 6.1 with my dvd.

 

[Tom Moreno]

RCduck7:Tom Moreno:RCduck7:
The same thing in the Gladiator movie, when they take gladiator to the woods to murder him he had a chance to escape. He threw an axe to a soldier running away on a horse. As the axe find it's way to the soldier you can hear it going from back to front. In 5.1 with direct radiating speakers you have to be in or close to the sweetspot or the effect will be gone. But with 7 speakers the effect misses it's purity and placement. It makes me wonder how it would be with bipoles.

Hmmn. This movie was originally mixed in 6.1 and I've listened to the DTS-ES DVD of it many times. It was an early DTS-ES release as well so certain pans were mixed by the mixers on purpose to show off the ability to pan directly from centre rear to centre front without involving the side rears and this is one of them. Another notable moment is the firing of the arrows in the opening battle sequence. You might prefer the involving sound of sounds approaching from the rear to start from both sides of your head but it might not be an accurate representation of what the mixers intended.

I have the DTS superbit 5.1 release of that movie, not a hint that it is recorded in 6.1 with my dvd.

The original US release of the film included a DD 5.1 EX audio track and a DTS-ES 6.1 Discrete track. Todd-AO mixed the film in discrete 6.1 for theatrical release. When a film is mixed for 6.1 discrete on the stage they do not re-mix it for a 5.1 layback, they simply run the 6 channels into the Dolby and DTS recorders and Dolby will always encode the 6.1 matrixed into 5.1 with a flag to decode as such on a capable playback system after the fact, meanwhile the DTS ES system would encode discrete 6.1 that (as part of the specification for the format) is backwards compatible with non-6.1 systems so it encodes the centre back info into the LS/RS tracks that can be removed by a 6.1 ES decoder for discrete repro. As a result of this, even if your superbit lacks the flag to trigger 6.1 decoding and only contains 5.1 discrete channels, listening to it with 6.1 matrix decoding forced onto it will actually reproduce the original mix and would vary only slightly in terms of the ultimate separation of the rear centre channel from the LS/RS. Of course creating the rear back channel via Dolby Pro Logic IIx is different as it adds extra processes to the mix to create a stereo rear back channel, but utilising Dolby Digital EX decoding or DTS ES MATRIX 6.1 decoding should give you an accurate representation of what was intended on the mixing stage.

 

[pete321]

I'd say the benefit of using the extra amplification to biamp your fronts out weighs a 7.1 setup in most rooms.

 

[Anonymous]

Small to mid-sized room - 5.1

Big room - 7.1

Large room to very large room - 9.1, 11.1

So, it is the size of the room that will determine this.

 

[Anonymous]

Octopo:Depends on how big the room is. I wouldn't go to the cinema if it was 5.1, waste of money.

You are correct.

 

[RCduck7]

Garland Genoho:

Small to mid-sized room - 5.1

Big room - 7.1

Large room to very large room - 9.1, 11.1

So, it is the size of the room that will determine this.

If it is recorded that way, yes!

A solution for a large room might be usung multiple surround speakers but keep the processor doing 5.1 and go with the 2 surround preout channels to multiple power amplifiers for more speakers. Then you can have 7.1 or more and don't have the EX thing messing with the standard 5.1 recording.

 

[Anonymous]

Well, i was disappointed to see that most of my bluray collection doesn't have the 7.1 soundtracks. Half the idea of bluray was to have HiDef sound. Being that most of my buray are 5.1, ive told my amp that there are rear speakers are plugged in even though they aren't, so it now outputs 5.1 Dolby TruHD and DTS MA for the majority of my bluray movies. Whenever i come across a 7.1 disc, i simply change the rear speaker setting to none and i get dts/dolby 5.1, so i'm not missing out on any surround effects

In the long run i get HiDef sound for most of my bluray movies until i have a living room big enough for a full 7.1 setup. However when 7.1 becomes more mainstream, i'm going to be stuck in the mud! It all sounds a little fiddly but atleast il be getting most of what i ;aid for.

 

[Anonymous]

JonAJon:

Well, i was disappointed to see that most of my bluray collection doesn't have the 7.1 soundtracks. Half the idea of bluray was to have HiDef sound. Being that most of my buray are 5.1, ive told my amp that there are rear speakers are plugged in even though they aren't, so it now outputs 5.1 Dolby TruHD and DTS MA for the majority of my bluray movies. Whenever i come across a 7.1 disc, i simply change the rear speaker setting to none and i get dts/dolby 5.1, so i'm not missing out on any surround effects

In the long run i get HiDef sound for most of my bluray movies until i have a living room big enough for a full 7.1 setup. However when 7.1 becomes more mainstream, i'm going to be stuck in the mud! It all sounds a little fiddly but atleast il be getting most of what i ;aid for.

Dont think it needs to be as fiddly as you are doing.

The disc should have a flag built in which your system picks up on to do the proper decoding , therefore the amp will use or ignore the appropriate speaker setup, no changes of speaker setting required by the user.

Happy to be corrected