amplifiers????

[kobyf]

I'm currently in the market for a new amplifier but have no idea how high a wattage i should get. My source is a pioneer turntable and have an old technics se ch404 amplifier that I'm using and I'm fairly sure its about to pack itself in. My speakers are acoustic solutions powerforce 2000 220w floor speakers. How powerful an amp should I get to get the most out of my speakers and vinyl?

 

[MeanandGreen]

Watts don't matter that much really. That's only half the story.

What you need to do is choose an amplifier that matches your speakers impedance rating. It's usually either 4 ohms or 8 ohms, that's the part you need to get right. Otherwise the amp can struggle.

Your speakers sensitivity will dictate how much volume you get per watt of power. Any amp of around 40W or above should give you usable volume that goes loud enough without distortion. Unless you listen at really silly levels all of the time.

Make sure you choose an amp with a phono input for your turntable or you'll need a separate phono pre amp too.

 

[kobyf]

Thanks so much for your help man. That's cleared up so much. My speakers say 8ohms on the back so do I just get an 8ohms amplifier?

 

[MeanandGreen]

Thanks so much for your help man. That's cleared up so much. My speakers say 8ohms on the back so do I just get an 8ohms amplifier?

Basically yes, just check that the power ratings for any amps you may consider are quoted at 8ohms. Some manufacturers may quote the wattage for a 4 ohm load which may make you think you are getting more power than you actually are on paper.

I think most Marantz, NAD, Pioneer, Cambridge Audio etc are a pretty safe bet these days at the entry level end of things and quote accurate 8 ohm power ratings.

Anything around 40W at 8ohms should be sufficient. The more power generally the better, but like I said before watts aren't the whole story, so don't get too hung up on them.

Hope that helps, merry Christmas!

 

[kobyf]

Thanks again much appreciated. I was looking at the pioneer a10 amp.

It says on the website:

4-16ohms (a/b), 8-32ohms (a+b), 4-16ohms (bi-wiring)

Would this be a suitable amplifier to buy?

 

[Pistol Pete1]

The Pioneer A 10 is rated at 30 watts per channel (using two speakers) @ 8 ohms.

Personally I would suggest 40 watts or more unless the room is small or you only listen at low/sensible volumes.

 

[kobyf]

Would you be able to point me towards any suitable amps?

 

[jonathanRD]

Would you be able to point me towards any suitable amps?

What's your budget kobyf?

And do you have any plans to change/replace any of your other kit in the future?

 

[hybridauth_Facebook_664715932]

I don't know what your budget is, but creek evolution 50a is certainly worth a listen.
I am using this amp with pmc 21 and have used it with bw cm5. Both these speakers are very different from each other and evolution seems to run them effortlessly.

 

[Reijer]

Would you be able to point me towards any suitable amps?

Hi Kobyf.

I think NAD is a safe choice and a very stable amp. You can build in a phono stage and they have powerfull amps for not much money, like this: http://nadelectronics.com/products/hifi-amplifiers/C-375BEE-DAC-Stereo-Integrated-Amplifier or his little brother; the 356BEE.

Good luck!

 

[MeanandGreen]

Considering the Pioneer the OP has been looking at is at the budget end of things, I don't think he is in the market for anything like the price of the amps mentioned so far.

At the this price point I think the Denon PMA 520AE would be a good choice. It delivers 45W into 8 ohms, has a built in phono stage and comes with everything that is useful, like remote, headphones socket, tone controls etc...

The Pioneer A-30 may be worth a look, The A-10 I wouldn't bother with. I see Pioneer quote their ratings at 4 ohms, which for the unknowledgable is quite sneaky. You can pretty much half that output at 8 ohms.

If you can up the price a bit then the Pioneer A-50, Marantz PM 6005, NAD C316 BEE or C326 BEE are well worth checking out. Personally I'm biased towards NAD, always found them very clean and powerful sounding, with excellent features. Although you'd need separate phono pre amps with the NADs.

 

[TrevC]

Watts don't matter that much really. That's only half the story.

What you need to do is choose an amplifier that matches your speakers impedance rating.

Watts are the most important consideration, because an underpowered amplifier played too loud through low sensitivity speakers will destroy the tweeters with clipping harmonics. A low impedance speaker will make greater demands on the amplifier, so you should look for a spec where the output power at 4 ohms is around double that at 8 ohms. That indicates that the amplifier is up to the task. There are plenty of reasonably priced quality high powered amplifiers, tha Yamaha AS500 for example. Matching speakers to amplifier is nonsense. If you want to use a turntable, select an amplifier with a built in phono stage.

I'm talking solid state here, not silly valve amplifiers.

 

[MeanandGreen]

Watts don't matter that much really. That's only half the story.

What you need to do is choose an amplifier that matches your speakers impedance rating.

Watts are the most important consideration, because an underpowered amplifier played too loud through low sensitivity speakers will destroy the tweeters with clipping harmonics. A low impedance speaker will make greater demands on the amplifier, so you should look for a spec where the output power at 4 ohms is around double that at 8 ohms. That indicates that the amplifier is up to the task. There are plenty of reasonably priced quality high powered amplifiers, tha Yamaha AS500 for example. Matching speakers to amplifier is nonsense. If you want to use a turntable, select an amplifier with a built in phono stage.

I'm talking solid state here, not silly valve amplifiers.

The point I was making was watts on paper are not everything. It depends on how the measuremts have been taken. Impedance matching with speakers does matter.If you have 4 ohm speakers and the amp you have is only recomended to be used with 8 ohm speakers, it's going to strugle.

Not all watts on paper are equal, some manufacturers quote measurements at 4 or even 2 ohms, not much use if you have 8 ohm speakers. Generally the more powerful the amp, the less likely it's going to clip as you wind up the dial. However in domestic situations how many actual watts of power do you think it requires to listen at decent levels? It isn't as many as you might think.

The OP has an 8 ohm nominal impedance pair of speakers, he should seek an amp that gives reaoanable output at 8 ohms and I suggested a minimum of 40W. Did you not read that part of my post?

 

[MeanandGreen]

Watts don't matter that much really. That's only half the story.

What you need to do is choose an amplifier that matches your speakers impedance rating.

Watts are the most important consideration, because an underpowered amplifier played too loud through low sensitivity speakers will destroy the tweeters with clipping harmonics. A low impedance speaker will make greater demands on the amplifier, so you should look for a spec where the output power at 4 ohms is around double that at 8 ohms. That indicates that the amplifier is up to the task. There are plenty of reasonably priced quality high powered amplifiers, tha Yamaha AS500 for example. Matching speakers to amplifier is nonsense. If you want to use a turntable, select an amplifier with a built in phono stage.

I'm talking solid state here, not silly valve amplifiers.

The point I was making was watts on paper are not everything. It depends on how the measuremts have been taken. Impedance matching with speakers does matter.If you have 4 ohm speakers and the amp you have is only recomended to be used with 8 ohm speakers, it's going to strugle.

Not all watts on paper are equal, some manufacturers quote measurements at 4 or even 2 ohms, not much use if you have 8 ohm speakers. Don't even get me started on THD, that varies a lot on paper too. Generally the more powerful the amp, the less likely it's going to clip as you wind up the dial. However in domestic situations how many actual watts of power do you think it requires to listen at decent levels? It isn't anywhere near as many as you might think.

The OP has an 8 ohm nominal impedance pair of speakers, he should seek an amp that gives reaoanable output at 8 ohms and I suggested a minimum of 40W. Did you miss that part of my post?

 

[TrevC]

Watts don't matter that much really. That's only half the story.

What you need to do is choose an amplifier that matches your speakers impedance rating.

Watts are the most important consideration, because an underpowered amplifier played too loud through low sensitivity speakers will destroy the tweeters with clipping harmonics. A low impedance speaker will make greater demands on the amplifier, so you should look for a spec where the output power at 4 ohms is around double that at 8 ohms. That indicates that the amplifier is up to the task. There are plenty of reasonably priced quality high powered amplifiers, tha Yamaha AS500 for example. Matching speakers to amplifier is nonsense. If you want to use a turntable, select an amplifier with a built in phono stage.

I'm talking solid state here, not silly valve amplifiers.

The point I was making was watts on paper are not everything. It depends on how the measuremts have been taken. Impedance matching with speakers does matter.If you have 4 ohm speakers and the amp you have is only recomended to be used with 8 ohm speakers, it's going to strugle.

Not all watts on paper are equal, some manufacturers quote measurements at 4 or even 2 ohms, not much use if you have 8 ohm speakers. Don't even get me started on THD, that varies a lot on paper too. Generally the more powerful the amp, the less likely it's going to clip as you wind up the dial. However in domestic situations how many actual watts of power do you think it requires to listen at decent levels? It isn't anywhere near as many as you might think.

The OP has an 8 ohm nominal impedance pair of speakers, he should seek an amp that gives reaoanable output at 8 ohms and I suggested a minimum of 40W. Did you miss that part of my post?

So wattage isn't important but it is really. What specs do you think are the most important when choosing an amplifier? How loud the music sounds in the room is heavily dependent on the sensitivity of the speakers and how loud you like to listen. I won't get you started on THD, that is vanishingly low these days even on budget cheapo amplifiers.

What was the impedance matching nonsense all about?

 

[davedotco]

Watts don't matter that much really. That's only half the story.

What you need to do is choose an amplifier that matches your speakers impedance rating.

Watts are the most important consideration, because an underpowered amplifier played too loud through low sensitivity speakers will destroy the tweeters with clipping harmonics. A low impedance speaker will make greater demands on the amplifier, so you should look for a spec where the output power at 4 ohms is around double that at 8 ohms. That indicates that the amplifier is up to the task. There are plenty of reasonably priced quality high powered amplifiers, tha Yamaha AS500 for example. Matching speakers to amplifier is nonsense. If you want to use a turntable, select an amplifier with a built in phono stage.

I'm talking solid state here, not silly valve amplifiers.

The point I was making was watts on paper are not everything. It depends on how the measuremts have been taken. Impedance matching with speakers does matter.If you have 4 ohm speakers and the amp you have is only recomended to be used with 8 ohm speakers, it's going to strugle.

Not all watts on paper are equal, some manufacturers quote measurements at 4 or even 2 ohms, not much use if you have 8 ohm speakers. Don't even get me started on THD, that varies a lot on paper too. Generally the more powerful the amp, the less likely it's going to clip as you wind up the dial. However in domestic situations how many actual watts of power do you think it requires to listen at decent levels? It isn't anywhere near as many as you might think.

The OP has an 8 ohm nominal impedance pair of speakers, he should seek an amp that gives reaoanable output at 8 ohms and I suggested a minimum of 40W. Did you miss that part of my post?

So wattage isn't important but it is really. What specs do you think are the most important when choosing an amplifier? How loud the music sounds in the room is heavily dependent on the sensitivity of the speakers and how loud you like to listen. I won't get you started on THD, that is vanishingly low these days even on budget cheapo amplifiers.

What was the impedance matching nonsense all about?

I think you are being a little unkind. So much in the written spec of many products is pure fantasy, real world specs are something else entirely.

The power spec is pivotal, but not the massaged and manipulated spec of the marketing department, what really matters is the power delivered into the frequency dependent load of a real speaker. High impedeance peaks, low impedance dips with an awkward capacitive or indective component all conspire to make an amplifier work far harder than the manufacturers will admit.

The oft quoted (from Stereo Review, Quad and others), 'all amplifiers sound the same' is of course quite incomplete, what they are really saying is that 'All compedently designed power amplifiers, working within their stated parameters sound the same'

This is worth mentioning from time to time as it helps explain why, in some situations, differences are clearly apparent.

 

[TrevC]

Watts don't matter that much really. That's only half the story.

What you need to do is choose an amplifier that matches your speakers impedance rating.

Watts are the most important consideration, because an underpowered amplifier played too loud through low sensitivity speakers will destroy the tweeters with clipping harmonics. A low impedance speaker will make greater demands on the amplifier, so you should look for a spec where the output power at 4 ohms is around double that at 8 ohms. That indicates that the amplifier is up to the task. There are plenty of reasonably priced quality high powered amplifiers, tha Yamaha AS500 for example. Matching speakers to amplifier is nonsense. If you want to use a turntable, select an amplifier with a built in phono stage.

I'm talking solid state here, not silly valve amplifiers.

The point I was making was watts on paper are not everything. It depends on how the measuremts have been taken. Impedance matching with speakers does matter.If you have 4 ohm speakers and the amp you have is only recomended to be used with 8 ohm speakers, it's going to strugle.

Not all watts on paper are equal, some manufacturers quote measurements at 4 or even 2 ohms, not much use if you have 8 ohm speakers. Don't even get me started on THD, that varies a lot on paper too. Generally the more powerful the amp, the less likely it's going to clip as you wind up the dial. However in domestic situations how many actual watts of power do you think it requires to listen at decent levels? It isn't anywhere near as many as you might think.

The OP has an 8 ohm nominal impedance pair of speakers, he should seek an amp that gives reaoanable output at 8 ohms and I suggested a minimum of 40W. Did you miss that part of my post?

So wattage isn't important but it is really. What specs do you think are the most important when choosing an amplifier? How loud the music sounds in the room is heavily dependent on the sensitivity of the speakers and how loud you like to listen. I won't get you started on THD, that is vanishingly low these days even on budget cheapo amplifiers.

What was the impedance matching nonsense all about?

I think you are being a little unkind. So much in the written spec of many products is pure fantasy, real world specs are something else entirely.

The power spec is pivotal, but not the massaged and manipulated spec of the marketing department, what really matters is the power delivered into the frequency dependent load of a real speaker. High impedeance peaks, low impedance dips with an awkward capacitive or indective component all conspire to make an amplifier work far harder than the manufacturers will admit.

The oft quoted (from Stereo Review, Quad and others), 'all amplifiers sound the same' is of course quite incomplete, what they are really saying is that 'All compedently designed power amplifiers, working within their stated parameters sound the same'

This is worth mentioning from time to time as it helps explain why, in some situations, differences are clearly apparent.

Nobody knows whether amplifier specifications are fantasy or not if nobody bothers to test them. Relying on listening tests alone on just one pair of speakers when it's only the defects in the speakers, the room or their hearing that they are actually reviewing is fairly pointless, but that's a different argument. A reputable manufacturer will usually specify products accurately. Where was I unkind?

 

[MeanandGreen]

Watts don't matter that much really. That's only half the story.

What you need to do is choose an amplifier that matches your speakers impedance rating.

Watts are the most important consideration, because an underpowered amplifier played too loud through low sensitivity speakers will destroy the tweeters with clipping harmonics. A low impedance speaker will make greater demands on the amplifier, so you should look for a spec where the output power at 4 ohms is around double that at 8 ohms. That indicates that the amplifier is up to the task. There are plenty of reasonably priced quality high powered amplifiers, tha Yamaha AS500 for example. Matching speakers to amplifier is nonsense. If you want to use a turntable, select an amplifier with a built in phono stage.

I'm talking solid state here, not silly valve amplifiers.

The point I was making was watts on paper are not everything. It depends on how the measuremts have been taken. Impedance matching with speakers does matter.If you have 4 ohm speakers and the amp you have is only recomended to be used with 8 ohm speakers, it's going to strugle.

Not all watts on paper are equal, some manufacturers quote measurements at 4 or even 2 ohms, not much use if you have 8 ohm speakers. Don't even get me started on THD, that varies a lot on paper too. Generally the more powerful the amp, the less likely it's going to clip as you wind up the dial. However in domestic situations how many actual watts of power do you think it requires to listen at decent levels? It isn't anywhere near as many as you might think.

The OP has an 8 ohm nominal impedance pair of speakers, he should seek an amp that gives reaoanable output at 8 ohms and I suggested a minimum of 40W. Did you miss that part of my post?

So wattage isn't important but it is really. What specs do you think are the most important when choosing an amplifier? How loud the music sounds in the room is heavily dependent on the sensitivity of the speakers and how loud you like to listen. I won't get you started on THD, that is vanishingly low these days even on budget cheapo amplifiers.

What was the impedance matching nonsense all about?

I gathered from the original posters question at the start of this thread that he isn't fully clued up. So I tried to be as brief and simple as possible in advising him on what to look out for on paper.

What is your problem?

Watts matter to a point, but someone who doesn't know much on the subject may be fooled by what they see written down. Watts are not everything impedance matters too, how is that nonsence? He has 8 ohm speakers already at home as part of his system. Any amp he looks at needs to deliver reasonable power into an 8 ohm load. I suggested a minuim of 40 watts at 8 ohms. That's what he needs to consider. Yes more watts the better, but going off the level of kit he has and what he's been looking at he isn't going to get a powerhouse for his budget anyway.

I really do not see where I've given any duff info. It was a simplistic explanation for the layman. What I've said makes sence. Watts alone don't tell the whole story. I did also touch on speaker sensitivity in my first post, did you over look that bit too?

 

[CnoEvil]

I think you are being a little unkind.

Coming from you, that's pretty hard hitting! *wink*

....though I agree.

Watts are one element of the equation, as is current, speaker impedance and sensitivity.

My amp thrives on speakers which have high sensitivity and plummeting impedance, as it's stable into 2 Ohms (doubling its power from 4 Ohms).....so matching the speaker's impedance/sensitivity to the characteristics of the amp is important, especially if you want room filling volumes from 35W (8 Ohms).

 

[iceman16]

I think the power supply of an amplifier is "one" of the most important thing to consider.

 

[TrevC]

I think the power supply of an amplifier is "one" of the most important thing to consider.

That's taken care of in the wattage spec, which is usually quoted with both channels operating at full power.

 

[davedotco]

Nobody knows whether amplifier specifications are fantasy or not if nobody bothers to test them. Relying on listening tests alone on just one pair of speakers when it's only the defects in the speakers, the room or their hearing that they are actually reviewing is fairly pointless, but that's a different argument. A reputable manufacturer will usually specify products accurately. Where was I unkind?

Pretty much everywhere. There are independent (ish) measurements to be found but I agree, not easily found in the mainstream media.

Then you are incredibly kind to some manufacturers, some are very, shall we say, inventive with their claims. I know you believe that listening to amplifiers is pointless but I disagree, my experience tells me that amplifier performance does vary and I believe that it is perfectly audible.

This is not the sound of the 'usual' 0.1% distortion that I am talking about, that I agree is clearly not an issue but the sound of amplifiers in a degree of distress due to the inability of some models to drive real world loads.

This is an explanation of the entirely empirical data that has been amassed over years and years of using and listening to all manner of equipment and is the best I can come up with. When you know the speakers and the room the differences I am discussing are not difficult to hear.

In a sense though you are quite correct, it is all about power, what I believe I am talking about is a failure of an amplifier to deliver on it's 'specified' power into real world loads.

 

[iceman16]

I think the power supply of an amplifier is "one" of the most important thing to consider.

That's taken care of in the wattage spec, which is usually quoted with both channels operating at full power.

TrevC can you elaborate more pls..I have 2 int. amps (sig.) MF AMS3 35i and Rega brio R. The MF is 35w and 50w respectively so yuo think the Brio-r can handle my speakers better?

 

[iceman16]

I think the power supply of an amplifier is "one" of the most important thing to consider.

That's taken care of in the wattage spec, which is usually quoted with both channels operating at full power.

I beg to disagree my friend! I have both these 2 amp and compared directly with same speakers,source and cables. The Brio-r cant get even closer to the MF AMS! (50w vs 35w)

 

[TrevC]

Nobody knows whether amplifier specifications are fantasy or not if nobody bothers to test them. Relying on listening tests alone on just one pair of speakers when it's only the defects in the speakers, the room or their hearing that they are actually reviewing is fairly pointless, but that's a different argument. A reputable manufacturer will usually specify products accurately. Where was I unkind?

Pretty much everywhere. There are independent (ish) measurements to be found but I agree, not easily found in the mainstream media.

Then you are incredibly kind to some manufacturers, some are very, shall we say, inventive with their claims. I know you believe that listening to amplifiers is pointless but I disagree, my experience tells me that amplifier performance does vary and I believe that it is perfectly audible.

This is not the sound of the 'usual' 0.1% distortion that I am talking about, that I agree is clearly not an issue but the sound of amplifiers in a degree of distress due to the inability of some models to drive real world loads.

This is an explanation of the entirely empirical data that has been amassed over years and years of using and listening to all manner of equipment and is the best I can come up with. When you know the speakers and the room the differences I am discussing are not difficult to hear.

In a sense though you are quite correct, it is all about power, what I believe I am talking about is a failure of an amplifier to deliver on it's 'specified' power into real world loads.

I'm not being kind to manufacturers at all, it's just that hardly anyone tests or checks the specs they provide, and the differences between them are far more subtle than those found in speakers or room.