Amplifier for ProAc D18

[sa2013]

Hi All

I thought it would make sense to start a new topic since my previous post was more about which speaker to choose.

So I heard devialet with VA Mozarts as well as Electrocompaniet ECI 6DS.

I couldn't pick a difference between 120 and 200, but dev and electro are definitely sound different. Devialet sound was very clear, especially noticeable with good recordings, electro produced more bass. What surprised me most was that devialet sound felt sterile (not sure how to better describe it) after electro. Is there something with the clarity of Devialet but not as emotionless?

Anyway, next on my list are:

accuphase e460

Naim supernait

Would also be interested if anyone heard ProAcs with Leema Tucana II, Plinius and Bladelius amps?

PS this site REALLY teaches me patience with ipad

 

[CnoEvil]

- Don't drop Sugden from your list, if available.

- Your comment on the Devialet has been a theoretical concern of mine, as it has been a trait of every Class D amp that I've heard. This is why I would be listening to it through SF, Harbeth and Kef R Series (which seem to work well with Class D)

- I have heard Bladelius, but not with Proac....it's always worth listening to as many amps as possible, though I will be surprised if you don't come back to Class A, or something like Electro, which is highly biased in A.

- Another amp to keep an eye out for is the Arcam A49 (highly biased in Class A), which is about to hit the shelves

 

[sa2013]

- Don't drop Sugden from your list, if available.

- Your comment on the Devialet has been a theoretical concern of mine, as it has been a trait of every Class D amp that I've heard. This is why I would be listening to it through SF, Harbeth and Kef R Series (which seem to work well with Class D)

- I have heard Bladelius, but not with Proac....it's always worth listening to as many amps as possible, though I will be surprised if you don't come back to Class A, or something like Electro, which is highly biased in A.

- Another amp to keep an eye out for is the Arcam A49 (highly biased in Class A), which is about to hit the shelves

Thanks Cno. My comments about Devialet could come across a bit harsh but that was not my intention. Initially was going to write more but got sick of re-typing my post three times in the row on ipad (awful experience).

I thought that VA would be very similar to ProAc's but do you think that perhaps I should get Devialet 120 for home demo? Another thing, would SAM make it much different? I guess I'm not really expecting an answer only time will tell, once D18's are SAMed, if ever.

I know of at least one place that have Sugden, may pay them a visit at some point, just concerned about the heat. Would Accuphase class A generate as much heat?

Just curious, what were your thoughts on Bladelius, did you hear Thor Mk III?

Sorry, too many questions in one go

 

[Macspur]

I don't have personal experience of Accuphase Class A models, but another forum member, Singslinger does and he says that they don't run as hot.

I look forward to your thoughts on the E460. I used to own a Sugden Masterclass, but the chance to own an Accuphase came along and I had to take it... it has much more grip on the base and adds that bit more colour to the music. As long as I can afford it, I will always try to stick with Accuphase.

Mac

www.macsmusic.blogbubble.net

 

[CnoEvil]

At the money you are spending, there is a lot of good kit, and you have to be very specific about what you like. Sometimes the difference can be quite subtle, but make a big difference on long term ownership. It is very easy to initially be "wowed" by a hugely clean and detailed sound, but it can become a bit much at louder volumes and longer listening sessions.

Listeners generally fall into 2 groups, which was nicely summed up by this comment that I quoted in your other thread: "In many ways, my thoughts on the B.M.C. remind me of the classic and controversial audio divide, in that this amp reflects a little more of the analytical head than the seductive heart of musical reproduction." From what I've read, you seem to be more in the latter group.

I'm not sure you can assume that VA and Proac are similar enough to make any assumptions...remember that Proac was voiced to work with Valve amps.

If you liked a lot of what Devialet did, it is certainly worth a home dem.....SAM will just make everything better, but won't totally change the fundamental sound character of the brand....but Doc and Matt can give you a more detailed answer. As I said in your other thread, my gut tells me that Devialet + Proac won't work as well as R Series or possibly VA.....but this is nothing but conjecture on my part.

A "True Class A" amp will give off 1 deg of heat for every Watt it produces ie. Half its power is given off as heat.

I heard Bladelius several years ago, when it was playing in the main dem room of my dealer. The source was the Embla and the speakers were some Focal Diablos. It was a Thor, but can't remember which version. From my vague memory, it sounded big, clean, reasonably neutral and articulate. I think it produced a sound that was certainly "Solid State" in nature, but at the same time not too edgy.

Don't worry about the questions, as I would rather have the interaction, than give a long answer that gets no feedback from the person who is looking for help.

 

[ISAC69]

The Naim Supernait should be a killer for the D18 . Naim and Proac are in general

excellent match : powerful , warm and detailed .

 

[MUSICRAFT]

The Naim Supernait should be a killer for the D18 . Naim and Proac are in general

excellent match : powerful , warm and detailed .

Hi ISAC69

Indeed

and this is down to Proac using partly also using Naim electronics to develop their speakers

To sa2013 if you want to try class A based amplification then (slipped my mind) also consider ATC's SIA2-150 MK2 with its full bodied, rich but clear and dynamic sound is something i found D18's also respond well to.

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

 

[DocG]

I thought that VA would be very similar to ProAc's but do you think that perhaps I should get Devialet 120 for home demo? Another thing, would SAM make it much different? I guess I'm not really expecting an answer only time will tell, once D18's are SAMed, if ever.

If you consider Devialet, you should realize that even the little brother, the 120, is pretty powerful, with 75/150 W into 8/4 Ohm. The 120 easily drives my LS50s (85 dB/1W/1m) to realistic levels. It's only when playing bass heavy (electonic) music, with SAM enabled (i.e. seriously boosting the low frequencies), that it runs out of breath. And that's probably where the 200 would make the difference. If not pushed too hard, the sound signature of 120 vs. 200 should be very similar indeed.

The difference SAM makes to my KEFs is really astounding. However, as Matt pointed out in earlier posts, the effect is more subtle the bigger the speaker gets. So for decent floorstanders, like the D18s, the SAM-effect will probably be less prominent. BTW, a look at Devialet's SAM-page shows that the D18 only has 11 votes so far. So if it is to round the 100 votes cape, there's still some voting work te be done!

On a different note: I was somewhat surprised you found the Devialet lacking in bass. That is usually considered one of the major strenghts of these amps... Maybe you have to get used to the clean (distortion-less) sound first. If not, then Electrocompaniet must be incredible in this dept! Unfortunately, Electro is one of the brands I still couldn't track down for a demo myself...

 

[nopiano]

Re Devialet and Electrcompaniet, I would definitely say the Dev is neutral and the Electro 'dark'. Not excessively and probably barely showing on frequency traces, but more a matter of taste. Of course, after a richer presentation, neutral can seem sterile. A bit like daylight versus tungsten filament, but eyes and ears adjust.

Agree with Cno about richer sounding speakers though, and I would tend to prefer a neutral amp and let the speakers alter the 'colour'. SAM could well be a clincher, and though I cannot verify yet, I rather think it may reduce the expense in the speaker department unless you need to fill a huge space.

 

[Covenanter]

A "True Class A" amp will give off 1 deg of heat for every Watt it produces ie. Half its power is given off as heat.

I don't mean to be pedantic but degrees are a measurement of temperature not an amount of heat. It's pretty obvious that, for example, a 30 Watt amplifier would not raise the temperature of your room by 30 degrees!

What might be the case is that a Class A amolifer with a consumption of say 100 Watts would put half of that, ie 50 Watts out as heat.

Chris

 

[CnoEvil]

A "True Class A" amp will give off 1 deg of heat for every Watt it produces ie. Half its power is given off as heat.

I don't mean to be pedantic but degrees are a measurement of temperature not an amount of heat. It's pretty obvious that, for example, a 30 Watt amplifier would not raise the temperature of your room by 30 degrees!

What might be the case is that a Class A amolifer with a consumption of say 100 Watts would put half of that, ie 50 Watts out as heat.

Chris

My amp draws about 400W from the mains, produces around 35W into 8 ohms doubling as impedance halves, and the amp itself has to dissapate around 35 degrees of "temperature". It's not an efficient way of producing sound, but I'm on the lookout for something that is as good, to my ears.

 

[Covenanter]

A "True Class A" amp will give off 1 deg of heat for every Watt it produces ie. Half its power is given off as heat.

I don't mean to be pedantic but degrees are a measurement of temperature not an amount of heat. It's pretty obvious that, for example, a 30 Watt amplifier would not raise the temperature of your room by 30 degrees!

What might be the case is that a Class A amolifer with a consumption of say 100 Watts would put half of that, ie 50 Watts out as heat.

Chris

My amp draws about 400W from the mains, produces around 35W into 8 ohms doubling as impedance halves, and the amp itself has to dissapate around 35 degrees of "temperature". It's not an efficient way of producing sound, but I'm on the lookout for something that is as good, to my ears.

So your amp is generating about 365 Watts of heat, about 1/3 of a one bar electric heater. That's quite a lot but not a problem in this country except in high summer.

Chris

 

[CnoEvil]

A "True Class A" amp will give off 1 deg of heat for every Watt it produces ie. Half its power is given off as heat.

I don't mean to be pedantic but degrees are a measurement of temperature not an amount of heat. It's pretty obvious that, for example, a 30 Watt amplifier would not raise the temperature of your room by 30 degrees!

What might be the case is that a Class A amolifer with a consumption of say 100 Watts would put half of that, ie 50 Watts out as heat.

Chris

My amp draws about 400W from the mains, produces around 35W into 8 ohms doubling as impedance halves, and the amp itself has to dissapate around 35 degrees of "temperature". It's not an efficient way of producing sound, but I'm on the lookout for something that is as good, to my ears.

So your amp is generating about 365 Watts of heat, about 1/3 of a one bar electric heater. That's quite a lot but not a problem in this country except in high summer.

Chris

Not an Irish Summer!

 

[sa2013]

I don't have personal experience of Accuphase Class A models, but another forum member, Singslinger does and he says that they don't run as hot.

I look forward to your thoughts on the E460. I used to own a Sugden Masterclass, but the chance to own an Accuphase came along and I had to take it... it has much more grip on the base and adds that bit more colour to the music. As long as I can afford it, I will always try to stick with Accuphase.

Mac

www.macsmusic.blogbubble.net

My gut feeling tells me Accuphase may be what I'm looking for, I have high expectations of this brand based on the info I've gathered online. Will have to wait until Saturday, unfortunately not much time. My last audition of Devialet and Electrocompaniet only went for one and a half hours until my better half summoned me for some home duties.

 

[sa2013]

Listeners generally fall into 2 groups, which was nicely summed up by this comment that I quoted in your other thread: "In many ways, my thoughts on the B.M.C. remind me of the classic and controversial audio divide, in that this amp reflects a little more of the analytical head than the seductive heart of musical reproduction." From what I've read, you seem to be more in the latter group.

I think you are right, ideally I'd be looking for something between Devialet and Electro. I like the clarity of Devialet but would prefer something more emotionally involving.

I'm not sure you can assume that VA and Proac are similar enough to make any assumptions...remember that Proac was voiced to work with Valve amps.

If you liked a lot of what Devialet did, it is certainly worth a home dem.....SAM will just make everything better, but won't totally change the fundamental sound character of the brand....but Doc and Matt can give you a more detailed answer. As I said in your other thread, my gut tells me that Devialet + Proac won't work as well as R Series or possibly VA.....but this is nothing but conjecture on my part.

What I'll do now is audition other amps and perhaps come back to listen Devialet a little later when I have more products to compare it to in similar price range. My only concern with this approach is I'm not sure I can trust my ears to remember the distinctive sound of different amplifiers.

A "True Class A" amp will give off 1 deg of heat for every Watt it produces ie. Half its power is given off as heat.

I heard Bladelius several years ago, when it was playing in the main dem room of my dealer. The source was the Embla and the speakers were some Focal Diablos. It was a Thor, but can't remember which version. From my vague memory, it sounded big, clean, reasonably neutral and articulate. I think it produced a sound that was certainly "Solid State" in nature, but at the same time not too edgy.

Don't worry about the questions, as I would rather have the interaction, than give a long answer that gets no feedback from the person who is looking for help.

Thanks for your help Cno, I appreciate the time you've taken to answer my questions.

 

[sa2013]

Hi ISAC69

To sa2013 if you want to try class A based amplification then (slipped my mind) also consider ATC's SIA2-150 MK2 with its full bodied, rich but clear and dynamic sound is something i found D18's also respond well to.

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

Thanks Rick, it's class AB which could actually be better (sorry Cno) in terms of heat / energy consumption. I think it's the first amp that gets 5 stars in all reviews I've found so far I'll see if these are available in Aus.

 

[sa2013]

If you consider Devialet, you should realize that even the little brother, the 120, is pretty powerful, with 75/150 W into 8/4 Ohm. The 120 easily drives my LS50s (85 dB/1W/1m) to realistic levels. It's only when playing bass heavy (electonic) music, with SAM enabled (i.e. seriously boosting the low frequencies), that it runs out of breath. And that's probably where the 200 would make the difference. If not pushed too hard, the sound signature of 120 vs. 200 should be very similar indeed.

The difference SAM makes to my KEFs is really astounding. However, as Matt pointed out in earlier posts, the effect is more subtle the bigger the speaker gets. So for decent floorstanders, like the D18s, the SAM-effect will probably be less prominent. BTW, a look at Devialet's SAM-page shows that the D18 only has 11 votes so far. So if it is to round the 100 votes cape, there's still some voting work te be done!

On a different note: I was somewhat surprised you found the Devialet lacking in bass. That is usually considered one of the major strenghts of these amps... Maybe you have to get used to the clean (distortion-less) sound first. If not, then Electrocompaniet must be incredible in this dept! Unfortunately, Electro is one of the brands I still couldn't track down for a demo myself...

Hi DocG,

I didn't say Devialet was lacking in bass, I just thought Electro made the speakers dig deeper.

Thanks for your comments on SAM, that clarifies it for me. As I mentioned in one of my previous replies, I'll audition some other amps and have another listen to Dev to see how it compares.

 

[sa2013]

Of course, after a richer presentation, neutral can seem sterile. A bit like daylight versus tungsten filament, but eyes and ears adjust.

I had similar thoughts to be honest. I only got into this hobby less than a year ago and haven't demoed other amplifiers in this price range so it's hard for me to make comparisons. Will have to listen quite a bit more before I can say for sure which option I'll be happy with in the long run.

 

[CnoEvil]

What I'll do now is audition other amps and perhaps come back to listen Devialet a little later when I have more products to compare it to in similar price range. My only concern with this approach is I'm not sure I can trust my ears to remember the distinctive sound of different amplifiers.

Making notes at each demo session is the best way to do this.

FWIW. I think Accuphase is likely to be the best choice....Luxman, Pass Labs and Sugden, are in the same ball park. Arcam's A49 could be an interesting bet, with Lavardin being a possibility as well.

 

[Happy_Listner]

First choice with Proac for me would be something with tubes.

If you rather have solid state then the Sugden A21SE would sound very good with D18's. I had a Croft Phono Integrated I used with my Proacs and the tubed phono stage sounded really good. It was a little less successful with the CD input on the Proacs. Look for an amp that is harmonically richer than most. I am using an older Creek 4330 right now and I am happy with the combonation. Perhaps the Creek Destiny 2?

 

[sa2013]

Sugden's been mentioned quite a few times, I feel I have to make an effort to audition one, although the dealer is located quite inconveniently.

I was also considering Creek but doesn't look I'm going to find one where I live.

 

[sa2013]

Making notes at each demo session is the best way to do this.

FWIW. I think Accuphase is likely to be the best choice....Luxman, Pass Labs and Sugden, are in the same ball park. Arcam's A49 could be an interesting bet, with Lavardin being a possibility as well.

Sounds like a plan. I'll update this thread with my impressions...

 

[jamesrfisher]

Sugden's been mentioned quite a few times, I feel I have to make an effort to audition one, although the dealer is located quite inconveniently.

I was also considering Creek but doesn't look I'm going to find one where I live.

If you are in UK, Creek do a home demo:

http://www.creekaudio.com/uk-dealers/

 

[sa2013]

Sugden's been mentioned quite a few times, I feel I have to make an effort to audition one, although the dealer is located quite inconveniently.

I was also considering Creek but doesn't look I'm going to find one where I live.

If you are in UK, Creek do a home demo:

http://www.creekaudio.com/uk-dealers/

I'm in Aus, only saw them second hand in classifieds

 

[boshk]

I heard Naim with D18s, sounds pretty good. Quite detailed, rounded. Bass wasn't overbearing.