Amp suggestions to tri amp PMC twenty 26

[newlash09]

Hi all...while I save up for the ATC SCM 40 actives, which are quite some time away. Thought I could try tri-amping the PMC twenty 26 to keep me occupied in the meanwhile.

The ATC SCM 40 A has 150+50+32 watts respectively for the bass ,mid and tweeter.

I already have a 160 w integrated amp for the bass. And iam curious which amps would be most suitable for mid range and tweeter, considering that I only need 50+32 watts each. In order to avoid having additional preamp boxes, I would be interested in integrated amps only. And one of them needs to have an inbuilt dac. The other can be fed by my present dac.

The idea is to use a mini dsp 2x8 HD to split the digital signal into 3 frequency bands. And these three digital streams will be fed into the amps to drive each driver in an active configuration.

Iam looking for clarity and transparency in both mid range and treble . And could spend 1000 pounds on each.

I was initially considering tubes, but the worry about the heat has put me off it.

Thank for your time and replies.

 

[hybridauth_Facebook_100004211376004]

Newlash...why waste your money . nothing much in terms of sound quality will be gained....well not enough to justify the cost.....keep the cash towards your active atc's......or just buy a better performing amplifier that will really show you what the pmc's are capable of.....bryston,krell...electrocompaniet etc....that'd be far better than mashing lesser amps together....imho.

 

[insider9]

You're heading in the right direction but with money you're looking to spend I'd suggest going for Linn Exaktbox-i circa £4k. This gives you up to 4 way active amplification and crossover. Far better solution than Minidsp.

You would need a compatible Linn source but you could get some money back from your components as all you need with it is speakers.

 

[daytona600]

tri-amping but of a waste of time - better to go active with external crossover & 3 x stereo amps or 6 monos

dbx driverack ideal

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dat0Ytw-iy4

 

[insider9]

If you read the OP then you'd know Newlash is looking to go active.

 

[jjbomber]

If you read the OP then you'd know Newlash is looking to go active.

Er, does anyone read the OP on any thread? *biggrin*

 

[Electro]

Newlash...why waste your money . nothing much in terms of sound quality will be gained....well not enough to justify the cost.....keep the cash towards your active atc's......or just buy a better performing amplifier that will really show you what the pmc's are capable of.....bryston,krell...electrocompaniet etc....that'd be far better than mashing lesser amps together....imho.

Absolutely !

Don't waste your money. *good*

 

[newlash09]

@ mark rose smith - Thanks for the suggestion. I would have gone with any of the big money amps from the afore mentioned companies if I had the budget. From what I've read over some time. The big money amps from reputed makers have transparency, clarity, tone / timbral accuracy , dynamics over a wide bandwidth and have loads of power .

And with a 3 way speaker I probably don't need a amp of such calibre over the entire bandwidth. I probably need a great 50W amp with a great mid range and one 30W amp with a great treble. This is how ATC SCM 40 actives beat much pricier amp + SCM 40 passive combinations. Due to optimisation of the amp to that particular driver. Iam just trying to replicate them, with what is readily available in terms of amplification and the speakers at hand . I would hazard a guess, that my little experiment can reward be hugely, if the selection of Amps is correct.

@ insider9 - Thanks for the exakt box suggestion. Had checked up the Linn website, and saw that it provides a 4 way active crossover with indipendently DAC's on each channel. And frequency and phase alignment on all channels. However, 4000 pounds is still a lot of money for me.

So my plan was to feed digital in, into the Dirac ddrc for frequency, phase alignment and room correction in the digital realm. Then feed this digital output to mini DSP 2x8 HD for active crossover on all 3 channels. The bass digital signal would go directly to the inbuilt dac of the parasound which will drive the bass drivers. The mid range and treble digital streams will like wise go to the great 50W & 30W Amps iam requesting suggestions for. I can use the chord dac on the 50W integrated amp for mid range and vocal clarity.

The above is my stream of thought. And I felt I could just procure one thing at a time and keep building the whole system on a lesser budget.

And since both ddrc + minidsp are available in the digital stream I could iron out any issues I have later within the digital realm.

Out of my enthusiasm, I have already placed an order for new PMC mid range and tweeters from the PMC dealer. So there will be a backup set at hand, even if I goof up somewhere.

What do you think, about my whole idea. Do I need to make any corrections to how i plan to approach this project.

 

[newlash09]

Requesting folks to please suggest what they would consider to be a great mid range amp and a great treble amp from their experiences. I sadly haven't heard many amps so far. Hence my request for suggestions. Thanks

 

[insider9]

Reason why I suggested Linn is that it is a cost saving and in my opinion works incredibly well. Sadly, Minidsp won't be able to match its performance. If you buy two amps at £1k each and DAC for each plus Minidsps you will be nearing £3k anyway. That's on top of everything else you're using.

However I did do my DIY active conversion on a budget and know it can be done without Linn and with little spent.

Before you commit to any one amp please ask yourself a question. Realistically, how much DSP will you use? Assuming you would try and fight the room in bass and loose 10dB of headroom this translates to 10 times the power needed. So please bear this in mind. Not that you will need to do this for midrange (probably). Sure running class A 10Wpc amp for mids would be great but it will all depend on correction applied and crossover point. I think it's a great idea and you'll have a lot of fun.

One last thought I would not get any active crossover that cannot do FIR. I'm not sure what 2x8HD is I'm familiar with their products but never seen 2x8 HD... Can you provide a link to the drive units you've ordered?

 

[newlash09]

Reason why I suggested Linn is that it is a cost saving and in my opinion works incredibly well. Sadly, Minidsp won't be able to match its performance. If you buy two amps at £1k each and DAC for each plus Minidsps you will be nearing £3k anyway. That's on top of everything else you're using.

However I did do my DIY active conversion on a budget and know it can be done without Linn and with little spent.

Before you commit to any one amp please ask yourself a question. Realistically, how much DSP will you use? Assuming you would try and fight the room in bass and loose 10dB of headroom this translates to 10 times the power needed. So please bear this in mind. Not that you will need to do this for midrange (probably). Sure running class A 10Wpc amp for mids would be great but it will all depend on correction applied and crossover point. I think it's a great idea and you'll have a lot of fun.

One last thought I would not get any active crossover that cannot do FIR. I'm not sure what 2x8HD is I'm familiar with their products but never seen 2x8 HD... Can you provide a link to the drive units you've ordered?

I really have no clue how much power I will need for the bass driver. I was hoping the Parasound's 160W would suffice. I do listen to lots of EDM, with heavy bass. Will I need more power than this.

Alternately, I could use the high pass filters on the parasound and plug in one or two subs if needed. But it might be a overkill.

15-40 hz - sub

40hz-350hz - bass driver in PMC + parasound halo

350hz-3500hz - Mid range dome in PMC + new integrated amp

3500hz - 20 Khz - Tweeter in PMC + new integrated amp

 

[newlash09]

The actual tweeter used in the PMC is the SEAS PRESTIGE 27TFFC, and same is easily available on amazon usa site. However, the mid bass is hard to find, and there is very less information regarding the particulars of the same. But some folks in the USA are using 'PEERLESS P13WH-00-08' 8 ohm versions with satisfactory results. And this also fits perfectly size wise.

In my case, since i had to contact PMC for the mid-bass driver, I also ordered a pair of tweeters along with it. As per my dealer, the tweeters & mid bass driver will be exactly matched as per my speaker's serial number database with PMC, and will be delivered in 1.5 months time. If you remember , I had received the tweeter and mid bass driver dented on my speakers. Ever since, I have been wanting to change them, despite my DIY repairs, delivering good results. So, was willing to spend the extra bit ( 1400 pounds ), to get the originals. Though the drivers matching my exact speakers part, did sound a little like marketing talk.

Thanks for the heads-up on the Linn. Iam sure it's a quality peice of equipment, and should deliver excellent sonic results. And I also know that you had only recommended it in my best interest. However, the biggest thing going against it's favour , will be my inability to sell it off, once I decide to go for the active SCM 40's. Where as my present planned budget is DIRAC DDRC-22D ( 800 usd ) + Mini-DSP Nano DIGI 2x8B ( 300 usd ) + 2000 pounds for 2 amps, one of which needs an internal DAC. So total cost will be 2800 pounds approx. And may be i wont need to spend 2000 pounds for 2 amps of 50 W + 30W. And I can sell it all off in seperate bits if Iam not happy with the end result.

The DIRAC DDRC-22D, has FIR & PEQ filtering, as well as DIRAC live room correction. So all DSP will be performed inside this in the digital domain. This processed digital signal will be fed to the Mini-dsp Nano Digi 2x8B, which is only an active digital crossover. This will feed my DAC's. I already have 2 DAC's, just need one more inside one of the integrated amps that I go for.

In the DDRC-22D, I have the possibility for 4 different sound maps to voice the entire system + speakers to sound which ever way I like. One map for each genre of music. In the end, once all done, maybe there will be no PMC sound left

But the possiblities are endless, and there will be enough tweaking and learning to keep me happy for a long time to come. But, I will need recommendations for the below, as I have'nt heard many amps :1) Which 50W amp under 1000 pounds has the best mid-range performance. Mainly Musicality, transparency and clarity. But not laid back.
2) Which 30W amp under 1000 pounds has the best treble performance. Mainly smooth clear highs with excellent air on top. But not bright.

Thanks for your time and suggestions

 

[abacus]

You will need to remove the speaker’s internal crossover to do what you want, (The DSP will be your active crossover) all amps should be from the same manufacture for sound balance and gain, (Don’t try mixing and matching unless you have a selection of amps available to try out) but to be honest you would be better just adding the DSP between the pre and power amp, and just have the one amp to drive the speakers until you can afford the active speakers you want. (There is more to designing an active speaker than putting some amps and a crossover together)

If you decide to go ahead with the project, be prepared for pain, as it will take you a significant time to get it right.

Bill

 

[newlash09]

Yes I will be removing the original passive cross over board along with circuitry from the pmc's. And will wire them directly in active setup.

Didn't realise that all amps need to be the same and have the same gain. If this is the case, then it takes me back to the drawing board. And will have to figure out everything again from scratch.

The core philosophy in the above planned attempt was to use different amps, each suited for a single frequency band. So that in entirety, I could have the effect of a high powered full bandwidth great sounding amplifier, which is usually very expensive.

 

[newlash09]

Please suggest if this will work

The minidsp nano digi which I will be using as the digital active crossover, has gain settings for each output.

Now if I use 2 amps , A& B. And the gain of amp B, is greater than amp A by 6 db. Then if I boost the output channel in the minidsp going to amp A by 6 db. Then will the gain on both amps be equal and linear from here onwards, provided that gain data provided by both the amp makers is accurate.

If the increase in amp gain / volume is not going be equal on both amps after above setting. Then it will be difficult to achieve the active configuration I want, without spending big money on something like the Linn exakt box. Which iam not prepared for

 

[Infiniteloop]

Seriously, I wouldn’t bother. Power Your PMC’s with a decent Valve Amp and be blown away.

 

[davedotco]

Seriously, I wouldn’t bother. Power Your PMC’s with a decent Valve Amp and be blown away.

Though personally I would leave the nain system as is.

For fun and games i would buy a kit speaker from someone like wilmslow audio, as simple or as complex as you like, and some inexpensive pro amps and crossover. Messing about with this sort of a set up will teach you a lot.

 

[abacus]

Please suggest if this will work

The minidsp nano digi which I will be using as the digital active crossover, has gain settings for each output.

Now if I use 2 amps , A& B. And the gain of amp B, is greater than amp A by 6 db. Then if I boost the output channel in the minidsp going to amp A by 6 db. Then will the gain on both amps be equal and linear from here onwards, provided that gain data provided by both the amp makers is accurate.

If the increase in amp gain / volume is not going be equal on both amps after above setting. Then it will be difficult to achieve the active configuration I want, without spending big money on something like the Linn exakt box. Which iam not prepared for

It’s not the gain level that is the problem but how the amp reacts as you increase the input signal, as manufactures design there amps to operate in the most linear part of the range, (This also varies with the class of amplifier used) which can be different between manufactures. (NOTE: The differences may be just minor, but until you try you won’t know)

There are many books available about speaker design; (Active and passive) so may be worth finding some out to give you a better understanding.

If you still wish to carry on with the project, I wish you the best, and keep us informed on how you are progressing.

One more point, unless you have another system you will not be able to listen to any music while you are experimenting, which depending on the time it takes you to get things right (It will not be short) is something to take into consideration.

Bill

 

[newlash09]

The more I learn here, the more I realise that maybe iam biting more than I can chew. Will surely let the active tri amping idea lie for a while. Thanks again

 

[Pedro2]

Not sure if this is of any use at all but Colin at Nord produces multi channel power amps (2 to 8 channel) at very reasonable cost. If they’re anything like the (2 channel) power amp I used to own, they will sound great.

 

[newlash09]

Not sure if this is of any use at all but Colin at Nord produces multi channel power amps (2 to 8 channel) at very reasonable cost. If they’re anything like the (2 channel) power amp I used to own, they will sound great.

Will surely think over it. As apart from amplification, there seem to be a lot more variables to be taken care of. At moment iam still researching the best way to get unified volume control. And removing the passive crossover seems to be opening the pandora box.

Will surely think it over. Thanks for your advise

 

[nopiano]

Seriously, I wouldn’t bother. Power Your PMC’s with a decent Valve Amp and be blown away.

I agree that the effort is highly unlikely to be rewarded in sound quality, and could easily not work at all. And you’d be meddling with perfectly good speakers. I definitely wouldn’t bother.

Whether a valve amp would please you or not I cannot say, but it would certainly be different, and that seems to be the itch you’re trying to scratch!

 

[newlash09]

Seriously, I wouldn’t bother. Power Your PMC’s with a decent Valve Amp and be blown away. 

 

I agree that the effort is highly unlikely to be rewarded in sound quality, and could easily not work at all.  And you’d be meddling with perfectly good speakers.  I definitely wouldn’t bother.

 

Whether a valve amp would please you or not I cannot say, but it would certainly be different, and that seems to be the itch you’re trying to scratch!  

Exactly. Was considering that line magnetic LM 219ia for a change. But can't stand that heat. So gave up on tubes completely. Probably a tube dac or tube buffer can fit in....will start with the cheapest Chinese one I can find . Just to make sure it does a difference to the sound before spending on quality

 

[Infiniteloop]

Seriously, I wouldn’t bother. Power Your PMC’s with a decent Valve Amp and be blown away.

I agree that the effort is highly unlikely to be rewarded in sound quality, and could easily not work at all. And you’d be meddling with perfectly good speakers. I definitely wouldn’t bother.

Whether a valve amp would please you or not I cannot say, but it would certainly be different, and that seems to be the itch you’re trying to scratch!

Exactly. Was considering that line magnetic LM 219ia for a change. But can't stand that heat. So gave up on tubes completely. Probably a tube dac or tube buffer can fit in....will start with the cheapest Chinese one I can find . Just to make sure it does a difference to the sound before spending on quality

I don’t believe a Tube dac or buffer will give you anything like the full effect a real Tube amp will.

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

I heard them at an audio t demo with with Cyrus mono x300 signature power amps tri amped. Ie 3 amps per speaker. It was very awesome indeed. I know probably out of budget but I think these speakers can really sing driven really really well .