Amp recomendations

[spiro2903]

Hi all, I am looking for a different amp but unfortunately I can't listen to many amps where I live, and ordering and returning them is somewhat expensive as I need to pay for return shipping. So I figured someone might give me some ideas/pointers online.

Anyway, my setup is this: I have Wharfedale Evo 4.2 speakers (with matching stands) and Audiolab 8300 amp. Also CA 200m DAC and Rega Planar 1 turntable. I am 90% happy with my setup, especially considering the money I paid for the Amp, speakers and DAC. I play music (flac, dsd) from a linux computer running bit perfect into the DAC and the into the amp. Unfortunately, my living room isn't that big, and it seems to resonate at around 40Hz, and there is probably a harmonic at 80 (I did some basic spectral analysis). Here lies my problem, there is a bass hump (or 2) at 40 and 80Hz that is very audible, and often tireing. I have configured an EQ on the computer to cut the bass and that improved the response significantly, and got rid of the bass hump. There is some loss of audio quality (as now it isn't bit perfect anymore) but it is subtle. This unfortunately affects only music played from the computer, not from the turntable, or the TV. So I would like to get an amp that has an EQ, with a bypass option, as well as DAC built in.

Now, my REAL problem is that I don't have a lot of money so realisticaly I can get an amp at around 1500€. The amp should have an EQ (with a bypass option), usb DAC built in (to act as a sound card for my computer), have a phono preamp, be able to drive my Wharfedale Evos (not the easiest speaker to drive) and ofcourse, have the sound that I like. A remote and black color would be nice to have, but not a requirement.

I have looked online, and it looks like the only amp with my requirements and in that price range is Denon PMA1700NE. There aren't that many reviews on that amp (some japanese which I don' speak), and more imporatntly, even less comparisons to setups similar to mine. What I was wondering if anyone has any experience with these amps (Audiolab and Denon) and especially with Denon/Wharfedale pairing. Both Audiolab 8300 and Wharfedale Evos are great pieces of equipment but I don't think they match well. Maybe it's just my room, but both seem to lean on the warmer and bassier side. I like warm, but this is a bit much, and that bass hump is really annoying. Do you think Denon (around 1500-1600€) would be a good replacement? Having an eq to just shave off some of that bass might be just what I need, and the amp has a built in DAC which I would like to have anyway.

Bit of a long post, but do you think should I just buy the Denon or do you guys have any other recomendations?

 

[Fandango Andy]

You have a good amp, you are going to have to spend a significant amount to upgrade. Other the the EQ (which may or may not help) you probably aren't going to get much of an upgrade for the price you are talking about.

Are you confident you speakers are as well placed as the can be? Are they on good solid stands? If so, you could try playing a little with the position, including: distance apart, distance from listener, distance from the rear and side walls, and the amount of "toe in".

Finally could you benefit from some room treatment?

 

[spiro2903]

I have speakers on Wharfedale Evo stands, there is some to in, and distance is adjusted as best as possible, as it is a small room (some 20cm from the wall and 40cm from a corner). The speakers are bottom ported so distance from wall is not as significant in rear ported speakers (one of the reasons I got them). Also room treatment is next to impossible. One is just the lack of space, money I would rather spend on equipment, and the fact that I would need to treat for 40Hz bass which means BIG foams etc.
When adding EQ I get the sound that I want, unfortunately Audiolab does not have an EQ, Denon does, and it seems to be very well regarded as an amp in general. I would just like to know if anyone had any experiences with it, and especially with Wharfedale Evo speakers.

 

[RoA]

Your amplifier is unlikely the problem. Your room and the speakers are. I would be inclined to look at Dirac or similar first, then speakers and room treatment unless you just fancy an amplifier change.

 

[spiro2903]

I would like an amp change just to have a built in DAC, more for convenience and some space saving. I never said that the amplifier is the issue, my room is. But my amp is on the warmer side, and my speakers are as well. They both also like to accentuate the bass just a little bit. On their own, or in in another room, that combo is really good, unfortunately not in my room. So I am going to change of of them, the amp just makes more sense as it is easier to choose, and I get the benefit of a built in DAC which I want anyway. Another thing is an EQ, I really like amps with an EQ, unfortunately few companies in my price range make it. Some songs benefit from some EQ, either due to the gear you have or the way they are recorder. There are some great pieces of music recorded by seemingly deaf people. As for dirac, I am setting up bluetooth streaming on my computer (Linux server running MPD) and doing a room correction analysis using an iphone. Apparently it works really well, and even some amp companies use it as part of their room correction features. Anyway, using just the EQ of my computer to lower the bass corrects it just fine, so I am inclined to believe that EQ in an amp would work just as well.

 

[gasolin]

yamaha r-n800a or mabye a used lyngdorf tdai 1120

A used hegel, they have super high damping factor so they would control the bass better than most amps

Wharfedale EVO 4.2 HiFi Speakers Review

Wharfedale EVO 4.2 HiFi Speakers Review Review I recently undertook a group test on nine standmount HiFi speakers to try and find the best affordable standmount speaker under £650 Reviewing, by its very nature, is a subjective thing and lots of factors can influence perceptions. In order to...

www.pursuitperfectsystem.com

https://www.reddit.com/r/audiophile/comments/kmm6a9/after_trying_for_over_a_month_im_not_liking_the

View: https://www.reddit.com/r/audiophile/comments/kmm6a9/after_trying_for_over_a_month_im_not_liking_the/

 

[RoA]

Dirac is not simply an EQ, it's more complicated than that. Details available on Dirac's site. A simple EQ will not give you the same results. If you are talking about other room optimisation systems, that's different. They all address a multitude of issues albeit with different algorithms, depending on vendor and, I assume, with varying degrees of success. I listened to a Lyngdorf presentation at the Bristol show and the result with/without room correction was certainly interesting. My WiiM Pro + has room correction but it is a rather rudimentary system and won't deal with complex room issues as Dirac, for example, would. It's a bit of a blunt tool but get's one there half way.

Having said all this, it is certainly helpful to have EQ. I use Roon's EQ mostly mostly for headphones and have the facility on a Chord DAC too. I certainly rather have the possibility to adjust than not have it at all.

I would agree with Gasolin's analysis of Hegel amplifiers. They indeed have great bass control, to the extent that unless you use speakers with low damping/full bass the result can sometimes be somewhat over controlled for some tastes. That includes even their lowest priced amplifiers like the H95 I had. Of course Hegel amplifiers do not have EQ.

Why not look at high quality AV amplifiers? Many have what you need including some form of room analysis/correction and EQ.

 

[gasolin]

Experiment with the bass by moving the speakers closer or longer away from a wall,corner

 

[spiro2903]

Hi gasolin, as for the second review:

Pros:

• Mid Range Details - agree
• Warm (If you like that) - yes, most definitely
• Soundstage when you're perfectly positioned - agree
• Many seem to enjoy their sound signature - I certainly do
• Beautiful Design and Build Quality - I prefer monolithic square design, but this is just subtle enough that I find it good looking
• Fits in a size category that's hard to find - OK?
• Good with certain music and sounds - agree, some music definitely suits it better. I found that surprisingly it "helps" some music sound better even though you wouldn't get these speakers for that kind of music. I mean some dance/techno songs seem to benefit from the Evos spectrum. Probably music that is not well recorded.

Cons:

• Not my favorite AMT sound - I haven't heard other AMT speakers, and many people complain that AMTs can be harsh, they are certainly not in the Evos.
• Warm by default, but just get harsh if you EQ up highs - In my experiments I have raised 8k and 16k by just about 1-2dB and it really accentuates the highs, Any more than that and it is harsh. For me 1-2dB is plenty, any more than that, and even if it didn't get harsh, would be too much highs for me.
• Weak mid-bass, then just gets muddy if you EQ up lows - don't agree. There is nothing weak in the bass/mid bass in these. It is definitely not tight, but the bass is not muddy and very big. Not sure why would anyone want to raise the bass with the Evos. Lowering it does make it tighter but you loose some of it, so to each its own. I like it, but just a touch more tightness would be nice. Not too much though.
• Bass distorts at higher volumes, even with 80hz x-over - Not sure what higher volumes are, but I do not hear any distortion in the bass, and I have listened to it at 95dB (average) at 3m from the speakers. Any louder than that and you'll loose your hearing. Bass is somewhat of a weak point with these speakers but not in a sense that they don't have it. It's just a bit much for smaller rooms. In the second link you sent you can clearly see bass humps at 30 and 60Hz, and in my room they are at 40 and 80, and I would say even bigger. Cut those freq a bit (5-10dB probably) and the bass is wonderful. Again, to each it's own, but I like it. I mostly listen to blues and rock with some jazz, but often Rammstein or 90s rave/techno and although it might not suite those kinds of music great it is most definitely not out of it's league.
• Sound Smaller than they are - Not in my room, in fact they sound bigger, if I had the money the room would be the first to go my room is about 5x4m with speakers at the longer side. having an extra 2m on each side would suit these speakers better, and I can see them filling 10x10m areas very well with a right amp.
• I do NOT enjoy their sound signature (Used for over a month) - I do

 

[gasolin]

Second review is not a professional review, as i can see it's just a user review

You just have to go out and listen to different amp,speaker combinations, if you know what you wanna change, take the other part to the store that don't have the amp or speakers and use it to listen to an amp,speaker combo they have in the store

If it's to heavy and you don't have a car, try to find a store that has what you wanna keep, the amp or speakers

 

[spiro2903]

I did experiment with speaker placement and considering the space they are now in an optimal position. Having them out by another 10-20 cm would help (a bit) but unfortunately impossible due to space in the room.
I will look at lyngdorf used, but I would rather get new for waranty. As for the Yamaha, Denon, although about 50% more, does rate higher as a better amp. Probably halfway between 800 and AS1200. The 1200 being another 50% more.
I know the second link is just a review, I was refering to the Wharfedale EVO 4.2 Frequency Response image on that page. Mine looks about the same but bass humps are aroud 40 and 80Hz.

 

[gasolin]

For 1500 you can get yamaha,lyngdorf that has software that can help you adjust the sound to the room

Or you have the option to buy studio monitors with dsp (krk) or more adjustments as bass and room gain and what ever they call it to match it better to your room or how you like it to sound

 

[spiro2903]

I've looked at Lyngdorf, and it looks like a great amp, but it's missing usb in for audio (usb-b). It's also at least 1800€ second hand. Hegel doesn't have all the features that I need, and again, too expensive unfortunately. I also noticed that Denon has an older DAC chip, not sure how it compares with ES9028Q2M in my CA dacmagic 200m.
I have also discovered that I could get Advance Paris for 1500€, that is without shipping, and abroad. So i need to check shipping prices and warranty terms. But that one has great reviews.
I would rather not swap the speakers at this time. At some point possibly, but I'd like to have a similar budget of at least 1500-2000€ to get something I like sonically and visually.

 

[Fandango Andy]

I did experiment with speaker placement and considering the space they are now in an optimal position. Having them out by another 10-20 cm would help (a bit) but unfortunately impossible due to space in the room.
I will look at lyngdorf used, but I would rather get new for waranty. As for the Yamaha, Denon, although about 50% more, does rate higher as a better amp. Probably halfway between 800 and AS1200. The 1200 being another 50% more.
I know the second link is just a review, I was refering to the Wharfedale EVO 4.2 Frequency Response image on that page. Mine looks about the same but bass humps are aroud 40 and 80Hz.

it sounds like you still have room to manoeuvre (sonically is not physically) with your speaker placement. if you are getting humps at 40 and 80Hz it will be the result of some frequencies cancelling and others "summing". The frequencies that are summing and cancelling are reverberant, and separated by fractions of a millisecond. The human brain is able to discern this as the audio queue and will present as louder, maybe 20db. This is your hump. Five or ten cm closer to/or further from the wall can play with this, as can a couple of degrees change to the toe.

Your room isn't that small, it is within the recommended parameters of the speakers. Also the frequency of your room is at the lower end of a typical living room. The best advice I can give you is to take a step back and decide what you want and why. If you want better sound, I don't think you need a new amp. if you want some new equipment, and can afford it, go for it. if you are chasing a unicorn, that's fine too as long as you accept you will never catch it.

 

[gasolin]

Lyngdorf TDAI 2200 with a/d and roomperfect you can have for around 1100 euros

1475 euros for a used tdai 1120

1675 euros ex demo https://www.audiovenue.uk/product/lyngdorf-tdai-1120/

 

[spiro2903]

Where did you find tdai1120 for 1475? I only saw at around 1800. Still, I'd probably rather have new or used from someone I know and trust. Got burned once.
I also found that there is Yamaha RN1000 (didn't know they made something between 800 and 2000) and Technics SU-GX70 for around 1300-1500€. Not sure if Technics has an EQ but it looks like it has room correction, not sure about it's 40W though, Audiolab is at 70. Even better both are within my country so returning them if I don't like them would be easier.
Like I said in the beginning I am 90% happy with my sound, I just need to shave off some bass and, possibly, add a bit of tightness. Nothing too dramatic. As I have a separate DAC I would also like to combine all in one and then finance my purchase, in part, with my DAC and my amp. But whatever I get it has to have all the features I currently have (phono, good DAC...).
Chasing unicorns would be great, but I fear that is way out of my budget right now. most things take precedence over my hifi wishes.

 

[gasolin]

used in denmark

from uk https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/316072653862?toolid=10001&customid=96847314-c3e4-11ef-bb2f-316361306430

Yamaha r-n1000a only has a slightly heavier cabinet,chassis and hdmi, you can't use both the YPAO Yamaha Parametric room Acoustic Optimizer and the eq since it disables YPAO if you wanna use tone controls, loudness,source direct

 

[njprrogers]

I'd have to agree that with the problems you are describing, if placement is not resolving things I would be looking at a Lyngdorf TDAI-1120 or 2170 used.
Other options with built in Dirac room correction would be an Arcam SA30. If you want to buy new, there are discounts on the NAD M10 v2 out there (1690 euros down from 2500 from a quick google) as the V3 has just come out.
The NAD C700 v2 has just come out and it has Dirac and is in budget.