Airport Express drop-outs / interference

[Dan Turner]

Hi folks,

I have tried everything that I can think of but I am still getting periodic drop-outs when streaming to my Airport Expresses. My kit consists of a MacBook Pro, a wired router into my Apple Time Capsule, which acts as my wireless hub, and AEs serving 3 rooms.

(It's worth noting that I experienced the same problems using a Thomson router supplied by O2 before changing service providers, with Plusnet supplying the wired router, and me purchasing the Time Capsule)

I tried every suggestion I can find for how to avoid interference & drops-out - including:

Setting the iTunes streaming buffer to large

Disabling IPV6 internet settings

Scanning for nearby networks and finding an unused channel

Turning on 'Interference Robustness' setting on my Time Capsule

Selected the 'Use Wide Channels' option on my Time Capsule ("for best throughout" - seemed like a good idea?)

The combination of all these things has made the drop-out problem a bit less frequent, but not solved it and I still get some kind of problem every 2/3 days minimum.

In terms of positioning, the time capsule is at least 1m away from the nearest electronic device, which is a cordless phone, and over 2m from anything else. The AE for the main system is in fairly close proximity to my HiFi & HC rack (just behind it) but when the drop-outs occur all 3 time capsules seem to be affected simultaneously and there seems to be no correlation with other appliances being used (or the use of them changing) as far as I can tell (including the phone near the TC).

Here is an extract of the time capsule wireless logs at the approximate time I was experiencing drop-outs today. I hope someone out there can interpret these?!

Feb 14 11:29:43 Severity:5 Initialized (firmware 7.5).

Feb 14 11:29:51 Severity:5 Deauthenticating with station ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff (reserved 3).

Feb 14 11:29:51 Severity:5 Deauthenticating with station ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff (reserved 2).

Feb 14 11:29:51 Severity:5 Rotated TKIP group key.

Feb 14 11:29:52 Severity:5 Rotated TKIP group key.

Feb 14 11:29:52 Severity:5 Internet configuration leased [IPv4] -- host <192.168.1.64/255.255.255.0> gateway <192.168.1.254> dns <192.168.1.254> wins <> lease <86400> domain <lan>

Feb 14 11:29:54 Severity:5 Internet configuration leased [IPv4] -- host <192.168.1.64/255.255.255.0> gateway <192.168.1.254> dns <192.168.1.254> wins <> lease <86400> domain <lan>

Feb 14 11:30:02 Severity:5 Associated with station 04:1e:64:99:6d:f5

Feb 14 11:30:02 Severity:5 Installed unicast CCMP key for supplicant 04:1e:64:99:6d:f5

Feb 14 11:30:03 Severity:5 Associated with station 00:26:bb:18:44:2a

Feb 14 11:30:03 Severity:5 Installed unicast CCMP key for supplicant 00:26:bb:18:44:2a

Feb 14 11:30:04 Severity:5 Associated with station 04:1e:64:9a:88:7d

Feb 14 11:30:04 Severity:5 Associated with station 04:1e:64:9a:9b:5f

Feb 14 11:30:04 Severity:5 Installed unicast CCMP key for supplicant 04:1e:64:9a:88:7d

Feb 14 11:30:04 Severity:5 Installed unicast CCMP key for supplicant 04:1e:64:9a:9b:5f

Feb 14 11:31:51 Severity:3 No Address for NTP server time.apple.com.

Feb 14 11:32:07 Severity:5 Clock synchronized to network time server time.apple.com (adjusted +8 seconds).

Feb 14 12:29:51 Severity:5 Rotated TKIP group key.

Feb 14 12:29:52 Severity:5 Rotated TKIP group key.

Feb 14 12:32:16 Severity:5 Clock synchronized to network time server time.apple.com (adjusted +0 seconds).

The other thing to note is that my TC is broadcasting simultaneously on G (2.4Ghz) and N (5Ghz) frequencies. The only G device I have is my iPhone, but regardless of whether that is connected (I assume it's not connected when it's locked?) the AEs seem to be connected on the G channel, not the N, despite all being N-capable devices. I can see no way to influence what frequency they connect to the TC on, but I'm wondering whether 'N' would be less susceptible to interference?

Does any one know how to determine which frequency the AEs connect to the TC on? If there is no other solution, I'd rather suffer the inconvenience of not being able to use my iPhone as a remote control than the inconvenience of the drop-outs.

I should also say that when I'm experiencing a bout of incessant interference, rebooting the Time Capsule usually seems to resolve it in the short term.

Any help and advice would profoundly appreciated - Having found such a good value, great quality, user-friendly wireless music solution, these niggles are driving me to distraction!

Cheers,

Dan.

 

[John Duncan]

If it's running at 'g', then the wireless landline phone will be interfering (I suspect). Try turning it off and see what happens - if it gets better, you've found your problem. One solution is to run it at 'n' only, but that precludes iPhone remote control. Best would be to get the land phone as far away as possible.

 

[Dan Turner]

JohnDuncan:If it's running at 'g', then the wireless landline phone will be interfering (I suspect). Try turning it off and see what happens - if it gets better, you've found your problem. One solution is to run it at 'n' only, but that precludes iPhone remote control. Best would be to get the land phone as far away as possible.

Thanks JD. Until recently my router was on the other side of the room, so it was further away from the phone and I got the same issues then. Unfortunately because my only phone socket is in the lounge, I don't have much choice but to have both router and phone in there. I could move either the phone or the Time Capsule over to where my HiFi is on the other side of the room, but that won't get them any further apart than they were before. The other thing is, a cordless phone & it's base station are constantly broadcasting their signals to remain in contact, so in that case why is the interference intermittent? The drop-outs do not correlate with the phone ringing or being used.

Having another phone socket installed in another room will be a royal pain in the backside, but potentially my only option. First I will wait until the next bout if interference and see if switching the phone off resolves the issue.

Cheers.

 

[Anonymous]

Anything uses the 2.4 band. Your neighbours' networks, wireless telephones, wireless audio and video devices, RF remote controls, BlueTooth -- besides microwave ovens also interfere. Also various installations in the building might cause trouble.

If you're dependent of wireless network, get rid of as much as possible of other RF/wireless stuff. Experiment with the positioning of what's left.

 

[Dan Turner]

Well, I've ruled out my cordless phone, I unplugged it and I'm still getting drops outs. Today seems to be a particularly bad day for it. This is really beginning to depress me - I have gone entirely computer-based for my music and if I can't stream wirelessly then it's going to be hugely impractical.

There is obviously nothing I can do about other people's devices except scan for nearby networks and avoid their channels, which I have done. If a wireless network is this susceptible to interference then it seems inherently flawed, which I was totally unaware of when I went down this route for my music.

Given that my Time Capsule is broadcasting simultaneously on G and N frequencies does anyone know of a way to force my AEs to connect via N? At present they seem to be connecting via G and I can't see any way to influence that. Would it be possible to do this whilst leaving my iPhone connecting via G to allow for remote control of iTunes?

 

[Anonymous]

I don't know, as I've only got an old type Extreme. From what I've read, switching to the 5 KHz band is no magical cure anyway.

I know from experience that for some types of interference (probably caused by building structures), small changes of position will do.

Also, for some reason reducing the signal strength might also improve network performance.

But then, it might be a neighbour's microwave oven or garage door controller or a kid using some remote controlled toy...

 

[Dan Turner]

OK decided to try each different wireless channel in turn, regardless of if there are other networks on them - channel 3 looked clear but I guess there could have been a hidden network that was causing my recent interference issues.

Channel 1 seems to be reasonably good so far. The odd isolated glitch, but nothing persistent.

 

[Anonymous]

I changed the Beacon Interval from 100 to 25 in the 'Wireless LAN' settings of my router and this fixed the problem. Hope this helps!

 

[Dan Turner]

gonesy:I changed the Beacon Interval from 100 to 25 in the 'Wireless LAN' settings of my router and this fixed the problem. Hope this helps!

Gonsey - Cheers, that sounds like an extremely useful tip!

Do you (or does anyone else?) know how to do this on an Apple Time Capsule? I've got a wired router going into the TC and this is my wireless hub. I went into the config in Airport Utility, but I couldn't see any setting for the beacon interval.

 

[Anonymous]

Hi Dan, I'd imagine you have to dial into your router using its IP address and go to your advanced Wireless settings. You should then be able to modify your Beacon Interval. Hope this helps.

 

[Dan Turner]

gonesy:Hi Dan, I'd imagine you have to dial into your router using its IP address and go to your advanced Wireless settings. You should then be able to modify your Beacon Interval. Hope this helps.

Hi Gonsey, Unfortunately I don't think it's that simple, because my router is wired it won't contain any wireless settings. It connects via an ethernet cable to my Apple Time Capsule, which is my wireless network hub. The settings are modified using Airport Utility and I can't find one for the beacon interval......thanks anyway!

Any Mac experts out there know how to change the beacon interval on a Time Capsule?

 

[Dan Turner]

OK - a bit more research and I have managed to find a few more settings that may hopefully help. I have split my 5 Ghz network out with it's own SSID, and managed to get my Mac to connect to that no problems, which should help with potential interference from external sources (on the Mac->router leg of transmission at least). I also found the 'multicast rate' setting, and although I couldn't really find a proper explanation for what it did, most stuff that refers to it online seems to be suggesting the higher the better, so have set that to 'high'. I have also enabled 'use wide channels', which has been described as bundling 2 5ghz channels together to improve bandwith, which seems like a good idea. Just trying it out now, fingers crossed....

The one nagging issue that I just cannot resolve is getting the Airport Expresses to connect on 5Ghz. Even having split the 5 Ghz network out with a separate SSID, it is not available to select under either the 'join a wireless network' or 'extend a wireless network' options when configuring the AE wireless, I can only select the 2.4ghz network - does anyone have ideas on this - it's driving me insane, because I've already proven that by getting my time capsule to broadcast 2 wireless networks simultaneously on the 2.4ghz and 5ghz frequencies I can get the relevant devices to connect to each (i.e. iPhone to 2.4ghz; Mac to 5ghz) and everything still works fine. But whilst the AEs are connected on 2.4ghz, they will still be more susceptible to interference. (They are all 'N' capable.)

The other new 'challenge' that has presented itself, is that since I've got my Naim SuperNait amp (with built-in DAC), whenever I begin replay via AE I get a little momentary glitch in the sound within about 30 seconds of starting playback (the exact timing varies). This occurs every time I start, pause, change tracks and it doesn't seem to be coincidental interference because it happens every single time, but it does not do it when replaying from my Mac plugged in directly. It didn't happen when the AE was plugged in to a Cambridge Audio DacMagic previously, so it's seems to be something specific to the an AE connected to a SuperNait via optical....any ideas....?

Any further thoughts and ideas greatly appreciated!

 

[Dan Turner]

OK - the above totally failed to sort it.

I have hatched one last ditch plan to sort this out - I'm persisting with this thread in the hope that if I can resolve this then it might help someone else out there - I know I'm not the only one getting drop-outs when streaming.

So, in order to force my AEs to connect at 5ghz I have connected it all up the following way:

[Wired Router] ----> [Time Capsule (wireless disabled)] ----> [AE1 (wireless bridge 'N' only)]

I'm wirelessly connecting my MacBook, and 2 more AEs on 'N'. In addition I've set the other 2 AEs to 'extend a wireless network' in an attempt to emulate the Sonos 'mesh' network and hopefully make the whole thing stronger and therefore less prone to interference.

The disadvantages of this set-up are that

a) I can't use my iPhone as a remote (or connect it to my network at all), but i can use my Mac as the interface and the battery is good for at least an evening's listening with it on the coffee table or whatever

b) I have to have an ethernet cable going round the edge of the lounge

c) I have to admit defeat on getting the AEs to connect to the Time Capsule via 'N', which is very frustrating because it should just work!

Fingers crossed. So far the Dub Pistols have mixed, scratched and err dubbed, but they haven't cut-out....

 

[Anonymous]

Can i just say that i was in a similar situation to you, i'd tried all suggestions i could find at various places online, but i always ended up back to having these annoying dropouts. Until i rolled back itunes from version 9 to version 7, and the dropouts improved. I then rolled back to version 6 and they completely disappeared - streaming nirvana from there on! Not exactly the most convenient solution but im perfectly happy with a retro itunes.

Hope this helps.

 

[Anonymous]

I've got quite a bit of experience on this field the last decade...

All I can say is that the reasons for drop outs are most often simple ones, so the simple solutions will most often do -- while complex solutions might fail, because they don't address the real problem.

If you've tried a lot of complex solutions without positive results, the obvious thing to do is to reset the network an start from scratch with standard settings.

If no changes in networks settings eliminate the drop-outs and there's no interfering gadgets (RF remotes, wireless sound/video equipment, wireless phones, microwave-ovens), chances are the drop-outs are caused by building structures. If so, moving the equipment might be the solution. I once found that moving my Mac 20 centimetres eliminated serious drop-out problems in a concrete building.

As for software causing drop-outs: It seems to be a regular problem with Spotify. With iTunes, I've only experienced it once, with version 8-something. After the next update, it disappeared.

 

[the record spot]

Check your phone line isn't damaged. That can impact on intermittent drop-outs (as in our case when the BT engineer spent a good couple of hours replacing the old one which had been cut open over time with a new one following the same problem for weeks).

 

[Dan Turner]

Thanks - After an underwhelming home demo of Sonos I've decided to persist with the Apple AEs until some other solution presents itself, and fingers crossed for some reason it all seems to be behaving itself at the moment...

I think I'll hold out for a wired single room streaming solution (aka Linn DS) for my main system at an affordable price (considering what it has to do I can't see why such a product needs to be expensive (aka Linn DS) and persist with AEs for other rooms.