Question Advice about new speakers cables

[abacus]

If you recall we did a poll a while back, and that wasn't the conclusion. I'm not saying the results represent 'fact', but that's not the point.

Hi-Fi is a minority/niche market with the vast majority of listeners happy with an mp3 player and boom box.

Go back over the decades (From memory it first started in the late 70s early 80s) this has never been resolved, however while there have been plenty of level matched double blind tests over the decades, and if you look at forums, magazines over the decades there are only a few that refuse to believe the results. (It’s recycled every generation as newbies come in)

Bill

 

[abacus]

If what you say is true then surely this small group of flat earthers could not sustain a cable industry all on their own?

If there is no difference in cables why are there so many different ones pitched at different price points for the consumer to buy?

Why does this basic is best argument not apply to interconnect cables, is the process of moving a signal from A to B via an interconnect not exactly the same as that of moving the signal from A to B in a speaker cable?

Is there a way that these differences or lack of difference can be demonstrated easily?

Please don’t get me wrong I’m not anti this or pro that, I’m just trying to understand where I sit in this battle of believers, if all I need is £25 of terminated speaker cable then brilliant, however if I need £150 of speaker cable then brilliant.

I don’t mind a reasonable cost, after all we pay a hell of a lot more for the main components than we do for any cables which are a comparatively cheap part of our set-ups.

So £150 for speaker cables in a system that has cost £4000 to put together doesn’t seem hugely expensive.

Cables are bought in cheap (Usually from china) and manufactures have their names moulded on the sleeve, (Take these super cable apart and you will find you can get them cheaply from electronic/electrical wholesalers, just without the posh looking name, sleeve and terminations) then the marketing goes to work, (Which supported by subjectivists reviews) and a following occurs which allows them to make massive profits, thus it is relatively easy to sustain this type of business model. (They normally diversify into other things as well)

See above.

It applies to all good quality audio cables, it just so happens that his is a speaker cable thread.

As I said in my previous post the only true way to remove all variables is with a level matched double blind test.

I hope I have answered your curiosity above.

The more expensive cables do tend to look good, and if you have spent a considerable sum of money on your equipment buying something that looks the part is understandable. (There is just no verifiable evidence that it will make any difference to the sound)

Bill

 

[Tinman1952]

Cables are bought in cheap (Usually from china) and manufactures have their names moulded on the sleeve, (Take these super cable apart and you will find you can get them cheaply from electronic/electrical wholesalers, just without the posh looking name, sleeve and terminations) then the marketing goes to work, (Which supported by subjectivists reviews) and a following occurs which allows them to make massive profits, thus it is relatively easy to sustain this type of business model. (They normally diversify into other things as well)

See above.

It applies to all good quality audio cables, it just so happens that his is a speaker cable thread.

As I said in my previous post the only true way to remove all variables is with a level matched double blind test.

I hope I have answered your curiosity above.

The more expensive cables do tend to look good, and if you have spent a considerable sum of money on your equipment buying something that looks the part is understandable. (There is just no verifiable evidence that it will make any difference to the sound)

Bill

Sorry this is simply not true. Tellurium Q, Atlas and Chord for example do NOT buy in cheap Chinese cables! 😣

 

[Gray]

I spent several nights watching a stage hypnotist in action. I watched as perfectly normal colleagues of mine had absolute rubbish suggested to them - they believed it implicitly.
In contrast, the scientific theories that some of the cable peddlars use to justify their products, often sounds quite plausible - I don't blame people for trusting it.
It was interesting watching that hypnotist before the show started, weeding out those that were not susceptable to suggestion - he'd have an easy job selecting from people on this forum

Nobody is immune from physiological effects. As has been said about different speaker cable lengths....if one was longer than the other, who could tell by listening? Nobody.
But how many would use unequal lengths? And if they wouldn't, why not? Because their brains would be telling them it was wrong. It's perfectly understandable for such brains to desire 'better' cables - without doubting what they 'hear'.

 

[Al ears]

I spent several nights watching a stage hypnotist in action. I watched as perfectly normal colleagues of mine had absolute rubbish suggested to them - they believed it implicitly.
In contrast, the scientific theories that some of the cable peddlars use to justify their products, often sounds quite plausible - I don't blame people for trusting it.
It was interesting watching that hypnotist before the show started, weeding out those that were not susceptable to suggestion - he'd have an easy job selecting from people on this forum

Nobody is immune from physiological effects. As has been said about different speaker cable lengths....if one was longer than the other, who could tell by listening? Nobody.
But how many would use unequal lengths? And if they wouldn't, why not? Because their brains would be telling them it was wrong. It's perfectly understandable for such brains to desire 'better' cables - without doubting what they 'hear'.

People tend not to use unequal lengths because of you buy them they normally come in equal length pairs.
that and the fact most people want to buy equal length pairs of you were to ever sell them on......

 

[Gray]

People tend not to use unequal lengths because of you buy them they normally come in equal length pairs.
that and the fact most people want to buy equal length pairs of you were to ever sell them on......

...and because people like you (and me) are OCD and just could never do it.
Again, I never doubt the power of the brain.

 

[Tinman1952]

...and because people like you (and me) are OCD and just could never do it.
Again, I never doubt the power of the brain.

Correct. My brain power is awesome….😂

Nobody is immune from physiological effects

I think you mean psychological….🙄

 

[Deleted member 108165]

I cannot get my head around this cable debate, for many a simple 79 strand copper wire wrapped in some material to hold it together is all that is required whereas for others the opposite is true and cables are capable of influencing the sound we hear depending on materials used and how it is all put together.

That cable manufacturers exist, have different cables even within there own ranges, suggests that there may be some truth that cables can influence sound, but it is such a touchy subject that it is almost not worth asking the question.

Once my new speakers arrive I will audition a few cables courtesy of my local dealer and compare them to my existing cables, the ones that sound the best will be the ones I use. And I am going to tell no one what I have chosen.

Just get some speaker cables that you like the look of, or ones that fit in with your decor. I did exactly that and couldn't tell any difference between VD Blue and mid-priced QED cables... the QED just look nicer.

Some owners change the power leads to their separates, my point of view on this is if the supplied cable is not sufficient for purpose then why does the manufacturer include it in the box? This also applies to supplied interconnects.

All this lark happens all the time, fear factor that we might be missing out on something, but it's just a way to part us from our cash by convincing us we need to purchase things multiple times. It even happens in music, everyone must have hi-res, even though they already have the same albums on LP and CD.

As you can tell I'm not in the cable believer camp Your money, your choice

Speakers and cartridges are where the biggest influence on sound is, I would also include amps and CD players.

 

[Gray]

I think you mean psychological….🙄

Took a wrong guess and too much bother to check the dictionary on my tablet
(Mind you, cable debates provoke physiological effects).

 

[Tinman1952]

Some owners change the power leads to their separates, my point of view on this is if the supplied cable is not sufficient for purpose then why does the manufacturer include it in the box? This also applies to supplied interconnects

Interesting point. I suppose the short answer is cost….they want to reduce it to the minimum.
For many, many years Naim stated that you only needed their basic mains cable with a good quality MK plug…..until of course they brought out their Powerline mains cable with the famous ‘wobbly’ connections! Then it was deemed to be an ‘essential’ upgrade to your system!
I bought a clutch of Merlin Tarantula mains cables years ago from the Bristol show at a great price and have used those ever since.
(I believe ‘clutch’ is the correct collective noun for cables….😁)

 

[Deleted member 108165]

Interesting point. I suppose the short answer is cost….they want to reduce it to the minimum.
For many, many years Naim stated that you only needed their basic mains cable with a good quality MK plug…..until of course they brought out their Powerline mains cable with the famous ‘wobbly’ connections! Then it was deemed to be an ‘essential’ upgrade to your system!

Just another way to part you with your cash... optional extra "must haves"

I'm sure all brands want their gear to sound the best so I'm not sure cost is actually relevant. If they included a really cheap cable which they knew was going to make their kit sound pants why would they want to do this? I've had Marantz gear for the last 10 years and the supplied cables fit all three amps and CD players I've owned over this period, from entry level to signature, and they all offer no improvement or deterioration in sound quality from each unit they are plugged into. Plus they all appear to be identically constructed/interchangeable.

 

[Tinman1952]

I'm sure all brands want their gear to sound the best so I'm not sure cost is actually relevant.

A little naive if I may say so. All products are built to a budget….so not ‘the best’ but best for the price…
Have you ever worked in business….? 🙂

 

[MUSICRAFT]

Speakers are where the biggest influence on sound is

Along the same line effectively aligned, calibrated and dialled in subwoofer/s can make the most profound difference to the overall performance of a system.

A subwoofer is the most important component.

 

[Oxfordian]

Cables are bought in cheap (Usually from china) and manufactures have their names moulded on the sleeve, (Take these super cable apart and you will find you can get them cheaply from electronic/electrical wholesalers, just without the posh looking name, sleeve and terminations) then the marketing goes to work, (Which supported by subjectivists reviews) and a following occurs which allows them to make massive profits, thus it is relatively easy to sustain this type of business model. (They normally diversify into other things as well)

See above.

It applies to all good quality audio cables, it just so happens that his is a speaker cable thread.

As I said in my previous post the only true way to remove all variables is with a level matched double blind test.

I hope I have answered your curiosity above.

The more expensive cables do tend to look good, and if you have spent a considerable sum of money on your equipment buying something that looks the part is understandable. (There is just no verifiable evidence that it will make any difference to the sound)

Bill

Sorry but this still doesn’t wash, no industry is going to be sustained by a small minority of a minority, there has to be something else.

If I buy some expensive cables I am unlikely to buy any again for a considerable period of time, if at all. I would guess that most people are the same if they buy cables from a dealer or on line. In fact I would surmise that most people buy a cable once. On this basis there is no way that a whole cable industry can be supported solely by the flat earther minority that you mention.

I am sure that any differences in cables is small and maybe for some so slight that they do not notice, whereas others will notice differences immediately. But, I have to question this mentality that the whole cable industry is all but a scam designed simply to take money out of my pocket.

One thing is certain from the debate on this thread the subject of cables is a very touchy one, there appears to be little common ground between those who believe and those that do not, in fact I lie, there is one area of common ground and that is this - cables are needed.

I will buy cables, what they are and where they are from will be my decision, it will be based on what my ears tell is best for me, they will not be overly expensive as I simply couldn’t justify paying hundreds of pounds per metre, in fact they may be as cheap as chips, or somewhere in between.

And this last point is what I would urge others to do, do not be influenced by others, let your ears tell you what works or what doesn’t.

 

[Oxfordian]

Along the same line effectively aligned, calibrated and dialled in subwoofer/s can make the most profound difference to the overall performance of a system.

A subwoofer is the most important component.

I have to admit that I was shocked by what a Sub did when I had one on demo, very impressed and definitely going to add one in due course.

 

[Tinman1952]

Sorry but this still doesn’t wash, no industry is going to be sustained by a small minority of a minority, there has to be something else.

If I buy some expensive cables I am unlikely to buy any again for a considerable period of time, if at all. I would guess that most people are the same if they buy cables from a dealer or on line. In fact I would surmise that most people buy a cable once. On this basis there is no way that a whole cable industry can be supported solely by the flat earther minority that you mention.

I am sure that any differences in cables is small and maybe for some so slight that they do not notice, whereas others will notice differences immediately. But, I have to question this mentality that the whole cable industry is all but a scam designed simply to take money out of my pocket.

One thing is certain from the debate on this thread the subject of cables is a very touchy one, there appears to be little common ground between those who believe and those that do not, in fact I lie, there is one area of common ground and that is this - cables are needed.

I will buy cables, what they are and where they are from will be my decision, it will be based on what my ears tell is best for me, they will not be overly expensive as I simply couldn’t justify paying hundreds of pounds per metre, in fact they may be as cheap as chips, or somewhere in between.

And this last point is what I would urge others to do, do not be influenced by others, let your ears tell you what works or what doesn’t.

Exactly so..👍

 

[Gray]

Sorry but this still doesn’t wash, no industry is going to be sustained by a small minority of a minority, there has to be something else.

One would certainly think so.
People are obviously buying cables.
They're not (necessarily) 'Flat earthers' but there's no question that many of them are misguided and, sadly, plenty end up disappointed. Some admit to it.
Of course, people can regret buying anything, but I reckon there will be a significantly higher proportion of cable regretters.
Yes, there are plenty of people sustaining a cable industry (not least thanks to 5 star WHF reviews)......but there's probably a good reason why most only buy once.

 

[Tinman1952]

but there's no question that many of them are misguided and, sadly, plenty end up disappointed.

Hmmmmm. …and what evidence have you for this assumption? 🤔

 

[Al ears]

Interesting point. I suppose the short answer is cost….they want to reduce it to the minimum.
For many, many years Naim stated that you only needed their basic mains cable with a good quality MK plug…..until of course they brought out their Powerline mains cable with the famous ‘wobbly’ connections! Then it was deemed to be an ‘essential’ upgrade to your system!
I bought a clutch of Merlin Tarantula mains cables years ago from the Bristol show at a great price and have used those ever since.
(I believe ‘clutch’ is the correct collective noun for cables….😁)

surely that's 'crutch'?

 

[Al ears]

Along the same line effectively aligned, calibrated and dialled in subwoofer/s can make the most profound difference to the overall performance of a system.

A subwoofer is the most important component.

This is a cable thread.........
do not attempt to divert.....

 

[Tinman1952]

surely that's 'crutch'?

😳 Are you allowed to say that? Lol…..

 

[Al ears]

😳 Are you allowed to say that? Lol…..

I just did.....
however, not to be confused with crotch

 

[Gray]

Hmmmmm. …and what evidence have you for this assumption? 🤔

Plenty on various forums have admitted to disappointment.....goodness knows how many don't report their findings (and why should they?)
It comes back to the brain thing. I'm sure that if I ever spend £hundreds on cables, my brain will tell me that what I'm hearing is better in every respect....and that I should get a checkup from the neckup at the earliest opportunity 🤪

 

[Oxfordian]

One would certainly think so.
People are obviously buying cables.
They're not (necessarily) 'Flat earthers' but there's no question that many of them are misguided and, sadly, plenty end up disappointed. Some admit to it.
Of course, people can regret buying anything, but I reckon there will be a significantly higher proportion of cable regretters.
Yes, there are plenty of people sustaining a cable industry (not least thanks to 5 star WHF reviews)......but there's probably a good reason why most only buy once.

This is my point, if cables are only being bought by a small minority of a minority (not my terminology) then these flat earthers (again not my terminology) then the cable companies would go bust.

So why do people like me go and buy a more expensive cable than the one we had, because we are told it’s different, better, pick your own reason there are plenty out there.

In the same way that we are told that this amp is better that that amp, because it has a better feel for the music, notes start and finish more crisply, the bass is tighter more dynamic. This DAC is better than that one for similar reasons, and so on and so on.

The whole hifi industry is built on being able to hear a better sound, every change in amp, speakers, source should improve the sound you get, so why not cables?

If a cable does nothing to the sound then shouldn’t the internals of the other components used in our systems be called into question, afterall most are made in China and probably from the same huge parts bin.

Cables are an integral part of any system, if Cables are made differently then surely they must sound different?

Manufacturers of amps and source components supply a mains cable now but no interconnects, certainly I received nothing in my Hegel or Audiolab boxes, I doubt if my ATC speaker box will contain any speaker cable when it arrives, why? It is so that we the consumer can go out and buy cables that suit the way we want our music to sound.

I have seen no evidence from anyone to suggest that cables are the same, lots of rhetoric, but no evidence.

As I have stated earlier, I will audition and choose cables that complement the kit I have purchased and give me a sound that I like, the cables won’t be expensive, in fact they may or may not be the cheapest the dealer has on offer but for certain they will sound the best I can afford and that is all that I care about.

Cables is clearly a touchy subject and I apologise if I have upset anyone but if I believe that one source component is different than another then I can believe that one cable is different to another.

 

[Deleted member 108165]

A little naive if I may say so. All products are built to a budget….so not ‘the best’ but best for the price…
Have you ever worked in business….? 🙂

If you believe I'm naive that's fine with me, however, please don't just quote the piece that supports your theory; there was personal supporting evidence in the next sentence you chose to ignore completely, as such you have taken my words out of context... have you ever worked as a journalist?