Question Active LS50's vs passive ATC's

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MUSICRAFT

Well-known member
The weakest link in all of our systems is our living room, and yet audiophiles are very hesitant about room correction. It is an absolutely essential part of every pro audio setup, and is just as important during the soundcheck these days as getting the mix right.

products like RoomPerfect could completely transform their system.

It ought to be the future but we keep saying that.
Well according to Peter Lyngdorf around 85% of the sound we hear comes from the room! The loudspeakers are 15%.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKwW5BT32rs
 

millennia_one

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Sep 1, 2014
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Hang on, i thought the wireless ls50 had a DSP inside that allowed them to be tuned ie you can tell them how far away from the wall/bounderies they are and what they're actually sitting on. Have you fiddled with that? Personally doesn't sound like it. They should be pretty indifferent to where they are placed with there DSP. Sound like a case of improper setup. But if you fancy change then fine, but id try all the free things first.
 

Jimboo

Well-known member
Oct 29, 2019
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I have got some GIK panels behind the sofa which improved slap and flutter echo significantly. Unfortunately there's only so much you can have on the walls before the 'WAF' comes into play!
I think I'll try putting some of the panels behind the speakers on Sunday and see how that goes.

Oddly, the bass issue improved the closer I place the speakers to the wall. Would've liked to get closer but my mains cables on the KEF's prevents that.

Have tried stuffing the ports but was never 100% happy with what it did to the sound.
I own the kef speakers also and I am a bit surprised with the term booming and slap and flutter. In 40 years they are the most unfussy speakers I have ever heard. What are they sitting on, do you have a pic of the room. What system did you have before and was that alright or did it suffer too.The mains cable mean you need like 3 inches gap, they are simply not that sensitive. The lads are right about maybe the room is a problem.
I don't see swapping products, buying amps etc will honestly solve anything.
 

Stickboy1985

Active member
May 7, 2020
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Hang on, i thought the wireless ls50 had a DSP inside that allowed them to be tuned ie you can tell them how far away from the wall/bounderies they are and what they're actually sitting on. Have you fiddled with that? Personally doesn't sound like it. They should be pretty indifferent to where they are placed with there DSP. Sound like a case of improper setup. But if you fancy change then fine, but id try all the free things first.
As per my previous posts, yes I have used the KEF's DSP.
They are set to less than 10cm to the wall and bass extension set to 'Less'.
 

Stickboy1985

Active member
May 7, 2020
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I own the kef speakers also and I am a bit surprised with the term booming and slap and flutter. In 40 years they are the most unfussy speakers I have ever heard. What are they sitting on, do you have a pic of the room. What system did you have before and was that alright or did it suffer too.The mains cable mean you need like 3 inches gap, they are simply not that sensitive. The lads are right about maybe the room is a problem.
I don't see swapping products, buying amps etc will honestly solve anything.
Can we swap living rooms then!? ha! Yours sounds more agreeable than mine!

Living room is rectangle shaped. Less than 20m2. Speakers are firing across the long wall, as apposed to down it (yes I know that's not ideal but can't be helped).
Property is a new build so walls are made of cheesecake!

The sofa is positioned in a recessed section of the room (behind the sofa is a door to the cupboard under the stairs). This is the area where I heard the slap/flutter echo the most, which the GIK panels helped reduce.

Speakers are sitting on custom design FS104 stands which have been filled.
 

millennia_one

Well-known member
Sep 1, 2014
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As per my previous posts, yes I have used the KEF's DSP.
They are set to less than 10cm to the wall and bass extension set to 'Less'.
Ah no worries then didn't see that between the dealer squabble

Edit

Looking at that picture id say it's not your speakers and changing them won't really help, The boom will be from the cupboard and the alcove that your sofa is recessed into. Try placing some cushions or something around strategically as an experiment and see what happens and try and tame that boom. though this has probably already been mentioned.

This will boil down to fine-tuning the setup, a Boom is a Boom a null is a null no amount of speaker changing will solve that issue. You can work around it though and id prefer to have a boom to a null
 
Last edited:

Stickboy1985

Active member
May 7, 2020
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Ah no worries then didn't see that between the dealer squabble

Edit

Looking at that picture id say it's not your speakers and changing them won't really help, The boom will be from the cupboard and the alcove that your sofa is recessed into. Try placing some cushions or something around strategically as an experiment and see what happens and try and tame that boom. though this has probably already been mentioned.

This will boil down to fine-tuning the setup, a Boom is a Boom a null is a null no amount of speaker changing will solve that issue. You can work around it though and id prefer to have a boom to a null

Had a feeling it was the recessed section that was the culprit.
I did try and solve the issue with x3 GIK acoustic panels which stopped the slap echo I heard from sitting on the sofa but not the bass boom.

I'm using...
x1 60x120 cm, 50mm impression series panel directly behind the sofa
x2 30x120 cm, 50mm impressions series panels either side of the sofa

Would've liked to have gotten thicker, more absorbing panels, but then the room starts to look like you've big boxes attached to the walls!
 
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millennia_one

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Sep 1, 2014
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Had a feeling it was the recessed section that was the culprit.
I did try and solve the issue with x3 GIK acoustic panels which stopped the slap echo I heard from sitting on the sofa but not the bass boom.

I'm using...
x1 60x120 cm, 50mm impression series panel directly behind the sofa
x2 30x120 cm, 50mm impressions series panels either side of the sofa

Would've liked to have gotten thicker, more absorbing panels, but then the room starts to look like you've big boxes attached to the walls!
There's other ways, placed bookcases and the like or some sort of sideboard, canvas art/photogrpahy. Even indoor plants but then you want absorption, not diffusion.

Try moving towards the speaker and seeing where the boom stops in the Room? if you get me. And then if possible moving the sofa there? it might only be a couple of inches. Like i say some fine-tuning. Make that air gap behind the sofa a little bigger.
 

Stickboy1985

Active member
May 7, 2020
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There's other ways, placed bookcases and the like or some sort of sideboard, canvas art/photogrpahy. Even indoor plants but then you want absorption, not diffusion.

Try moving towards the speaker and seeing where the boom stops in the Room? if you get me. And then if possible moving the sofa there? it might only be a couple of inches. Like i say some fine-tuning. Make that air gap behind the sofa a little bigger.
Ok your definitely onto something.

Moved the sofa forward like you said and eventually the boom all bit disappeared!
Unfortunately though the sofa was practically in the middle of the living room! Not ideal :(
 
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millennia_one

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Sep 1, 2014
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Ok your definitely onto something.

Moved the sofa forward like you said and eventually the boom all bit disappeared!
Unfortunately though the sofa was practically in the middle of the living room! Not ideal :(
Ok, that's great! so now you know what the problem is and didn't cost you a penny!!! You also now know the importance of the room.

I know you have used the DSP in the speakers to tailer the sound, but keep the settings you have, move them towards you 5cm at a time (take the spikes out the stands at this point it will be easier, don't put them back in till you have it all sorted) with the sofa in a reasonable place and see if the same thing happens. I think you'll find it will be a halfway house between the 2, normally the same distance. So if the speakers are for 50cm from the wall (lets say) so should your sofa be. You might not get rid of the Boom entirely but you should be able to get it to a point your happy with.

Also, try separating the speakers up a bit more if you can, it should create a bigger move even spread in the room. Though do one thing at a time.

Oh almost forgot to mention, have you filled your stands to the brim? or have you followed custom designs recommendation of only half filling them? filling the stands to the brim will make the bass more powerful increasing your boom.

I have my system setup similar to yours though I don't have to deal with the recess. But I do have reverb on one side of the room that was difficult to get rid of, but I've pretty much nailed it now and sounds great, and I'm sure you get this sorted with a bit of time.
 

Stickboy1985

Active member
May 7, 2020
16
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Ok, that's great! so now you know what the problem is and didn't cost you a penny!!! You also now know the importance of the room.

I know you have used the DSP in the speakers to tailer the sound, but keep the settings you have, move them towards you 5cm at a time (take the spikes out the stands at this point it will be easier, don't put them back in till you have it all sorted) with the sofa in a reasonable place and see if the same thing happens. I think you'll find it will be a halfway house between the 2, normally the same distance. So if the speakers are for 50cm from the wall (lets say) so should your sofa be. You might not get rid of the Boom entirely but you should be able to get it to a point your happy with.

Also, try separating the speakers up a bit more if you can, it should create a bigger move even spread in the room. Though do one thing at a time.

Oh almost forgot to mention, have you filled your stands to the brim? or have you followed custom designs recommendation of only half filling them? filling the stands to the brim will make the bass more powerful increasing your boom.

I have my system setup similar to yours though I don't have to deal with the recess. But I do have reverb on one side of the room that was difficult to get rid of, but I've pretty much nailed it now and sounds great, and I'm sure you get this sorted with a bit of time.
If I'd have known the room was going to be this much of a pain I'd bought a different house! (I'm kidding.....just!)

Ok I'll have a play around and report back.

From what I recall, the stands are half filled as per their instructions.

Thanks for the help. Much appreciated 👍🏻
 
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Stickboy1985

Active member
May 7, 2020
16
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25
Ok, that's great! so now you know what the problem is and didn't cost you a penny!!! You also now know the importance of the room.

I know you have used the DSP in the speakers to tailer the sound, but keep the settings you have, move them towards you 5cm at a time (take the spikes out the stands at this point it will be easier, don't put them back in till you have it all sorted) with the sofa in a reasonable place and see if the same thing happens. I think you'll find it will be a halfway house between the 2, normally the same distance. So if the speakers are for 50cm from the wall (lets say) so should your sofa be. You might not get rid of the Boom entirely but you should be able to get it to a point your happy with.
Think I may have to admit defeat guys :(

Moved speakers (and sofa) forwards, backwards and further apart. No matter what I tried the bass boom was still present.

I'm not in a position to install bass traps due to the size of the room. And let's face it, big boxes on the walls/in the corners aren't easy on the eyes!

I guess I should look into room correction software...
 

Stickboy1985

Active member
May 7, 2020
16
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25
As you're potentially having issues with your room then you might be interested in the following which i posted on here in another thread a couple of weeks ago -

***** I'll keep this as brief as possible.

I was asked by a client to visit him because he wanted to show me and listen to his new single chassis £3k amplifier which according to our client"wipes the floor clean" with his DAC and pre amp/mono amps costing many times more.

First, we heard the DAC, pre amp/mono's and B&W 805's with a B&W ASW675 sub. This system sounded pretty damn good to me (y)

Next, the DAC and the pre amp/mono's were substituted for Lyngdorf Audio'sTDAI-2170 digital amplifier. Before playing something our client asked me to put my ear next to the 805's with the TDAI-2170's volume on max. I heard nothing. No noise, no hiss and no hum. Nothing. The TDA-2170 was dead quiet. Next with the volume now turned down our client hit play on the CDP. The result was WOW :) Our client wasn't kidding when he said the TDAI-2170 "wipes the floor clean" with his DAC and pre amp/mono amps (which are all massively built and impressive to look at btw).

Things were set to get even better because our client now activated the ace up the TDAI-2170's and Lyngdorf Audio's sleeve. Lyngdorf Audio's Room Perfect room correction. RoomPerfect maps and corrects the acoustic errors of the room and importantly without changing the characteristics of the loudspeakers. I'd read about RoomPerfect and now i got experience the technology first hand. The 805's/ASW675 were now locked together, without a change in their presentation, playing as one and simply breathing. My jaw hit the floor.

With the restrictions in place and being at home i got a hold of the daddy in the range the TDAI-3400. Sure enough the qualities of the TDAI-2170 which to put it mildly impressed me so much are carried over to the TDAI-3400 and then some. The TDAI-3400 is stunning. Just stunning.

Anyway, based on my experience of the TDAI-2170 and the TDAI-3400 if you want to stay around £2k, 60w of power, digital amplification and the bee's knees of room correction then Lyngdorf Audio's new TDAI-1120 streaming digital amplifier at £2190 is also worth bearing in mind. *****

There you have it. If possible please also try and hear the SCM7's with a TDAI-1120. Based on my experience RoomPerfect will map and correct the acoustic errors of your room while preserving the qualities of the SCM7's. Fwiw, i am using a TDAI-3400 (listed in my signature) and have the speakers either side of a cabinet and right against the wall and with the subwoofer in the corner. With RoomPerfect there is no boom, bloom , gloom, tizz, brightness, flatness or any other nasties. RoomPerfect has simply snapped my system into focus.
Can't say I was aware of these guys before reading your post but after a quick look Google, they do sound impressive.

Unfortunately the TDAI-1120 doesn't have a USB input so that rules out using it with my Zenith.
 

Jimboo

Well-known member
Oct 29, 2019
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Ok your definitely onto something.

Moved the sofa forward like you said and eventually the boom all bit disappeared!
Unfortunately though the sofa was practically in the middle of the living room! Not ideal :(
Well the boom will not be an issue if you save money by buying a chair that you can place between the sofa and speakers. Room software , designer must have panels, blah bloody blah. Go to IKEA buy a poang ? Chair and footstool and stress not. Actually, I read somewhere IKEA had some sort of sound panel thing that you can add to, forget what it was called . It will be on their website. I practically sit level with the kefs while I am cataloguing my Lps on Discogs and they still sound great and focused. Stop wasting money and accept the room has issues, buy a separate chair or put the sofa where the TV is and the TV where the sofa sits.
 

millennia_one

Well-known member
Sep 1, 2014
187
68
10,670
Think I may have to admit defeat guys :(

Moved speakers (and sofa) forwards, backwards and further apart. No matter what I tried the bass boom was still present.

I'm not in a position to install bass traps due to the size of the room. And let's face it, big boxes on the walls/in the corners aren't easy on the eyes!

I guess I should look into room correction software...
Just keep playing mate. Like said. You might not get rid of it entirely but get to point. And room correction will only do so much if there even a solution for the all in one kEFs I don’t know.
 

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